Dero demands more money in a goal celebration

[Grizzly]

Paul James calls for TFC to trade DeRo. Predictable from him but I can't say I really disagree with him:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/james-on-soccer/dero-has-to-go/article1730821/

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

...also wants TFC to get rid of JDG and Mista. Mista almost certainly won't be back but I think JDG will be very reluctant to forego the money he is getting right now if there isn't a TFC held option on seasons two and three of his contract.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Paul James calls for TFC to trade DeRo. Predictable from him but I can't say I really disagree with him:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/james-on-soccer/dero-has-to-go/article1730821/

I agree on a lot of the analysis, but don't agree that trading DeRo is the answer.

Nor dropping the two DPs, though Mista was an error from the start, their fault really.

I suppose James was also in agreement about Preki being dumped?

Meaning he is happy to see the entire coaching staff and backbone of the team dismantled, but gives this huge benefit of the doubt to the team's management. They get a chance to open up, listen to fans, dialogue, but the players do not. That is an inconsistent argument.

James, you are a fast draw when it comes to some who err, and very slow with others. The real problem is MLSE: signing wrong coaches, overpaying De Guzman ridiculously, at least double his European market value, creating the comparative gap with De Ro, signing Mista without properly scouting him. An amateur can see that. So why not "MLSE has to go" for your next article?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Think you'll find if you read his other recent blog entries that Paul James was not at all impressed by what happened to Preki at least in the manner in which it was all handled and the timing of it. Think Mista was definitely "scouted" to a certain extent because from what I remember he was training with the team prior to being signed. Think it is obvious now though that the DP salary issue created a serious attitude problem where DeRosario is concerned and that may have been a big part of the "really challenging and difficult circumstances" that Preki alluded to after being fired.

[Unnamed Trialist]

I made my point about Julian when he was signed: he had no offers even close to what he is being paid at TFC. Maybe his agent made them up, but I doubt it. From Osasuna or Espanyol he would not have made more than 600-700 thousand euros a year. And they were not firm offers either, he was unable to close a deal and was not optimistic enough about finding one in Europe, otherwise he would have held out for other considerations, namely the quality of play.

TFC offered him at least 50% more than they should have, they could have offered him 2/3rds of what he is making and he would have said yes. Because even that was considerably higher than his possibilities in La Liga.

So TFC is overpaying him and that seems to be the source of DeRo's gripe. Which is NOT all DeRo's fault. Part of running a team is keeping the dressing room happy, and relative pay scale is part of that.

[paul-collins]

Meaning he is happy to see the entire coaching staff and backbone of the team dismantled, but gives this huge benefit of the doubt to the team's management. They get a chance to open up, listen to fans, dialogue, but the players do not. That is an inconsistent argument.

James, you are a fast draw when it comes to some who err, and very slow with others. The real problem is MLSE: signing wrong coaches, overpaying De Guzman ridiculously, at least double his European market value, creating the comparative gap with De Ro, signing Mista without properly scouting him. An amateur can see that. So why not "MLSE has to go" for your next article?

Actually, I read the article as very much an indictment of MLSE management. to wit:

Replacing de Rosario’s firepower (12 goals so far this season) can be achieved through investment on three new designated players, only this time the right ones. Of course, that will take some due-diligence and soccer smarts which has been sadly missing from the Toronto FC club from day one.

There were other bits, too. I thought the attack on his favourite whipping boys was more formality than vitriol in this article - DeRo for the specifics of his antics, JdG for what he represents in the room from a skewed-market perspective.

I have to say I was disappointed that DeRo wasn't stripped of the armband for this game. Not even a symbolic reprimand? That's weak.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Can TFC offer DeRo contract termination and can he accept and take a free transfer?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Although he signed a four year contract back in 2009 MLS contracts for top players are often for two years guaranteed plus two options.

http://www.imscouting.com/global-news-article/dwayne-de-rosario-signs-four-year-contract-with-fc/1160/

http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/575756--toronto-fc-adds-2-years-to-de-rosario-s-contract

[Gian-Luca]

Paul James calls for TFC to trade DeRo. Predictable from him but I can't say I really disagree with him:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/james-on-soccer/dero-has-to-go/article1730821/

IIRC De Ro was not on the Gold Cup team in 2003 that did the "player revolt" against Holger, so I question how sure of his facts James is - especially since he lists the player revolt against Holger as taking place in 2004, which is wrong year altogether.

[El Hombre]

^ Don't let facts get in the way of a good argument.

[loyola]

IIRC De Ro was not on the Gold Cup team in 2003 that did the "player revolt" against Holger, so I question how sure of his facts James is - especially since he lists the player revolt against Holger as taking place in 2004, which is wrong year altogether.

He also got the Mitchell thing wrong, it was 2008. Anyways, DeRo has a history of doing stupid thing and the idea of trading him isn't a bad one if you can get a solid player (like Will Johnson) in return.

[El Hombre]

He also got the Mitchell thing wrong, it was 2008. Anyways, DeRo has a history of doing stupid thing and the idea of trading him isn't a bad one if you can get a solid player (like Will Johnson) in return.

I love Will Johnson. I really do. But the idea of replacing Dero with him doesn't fill me with enthusiasm. I know James goes on to say that you can replace his scoring with 3 new DPs but that's a gamble. With De Rosario you have a known quantity, you know exactly what you are getting with him. To toss that away like James is suggesting is ridiculous.

The way to rebuild a team is to get rid of the dead weight first. Maybe try releasing Mista and replacing his contract with a couple decent players. Then get rid of your outside backs and replacing them with decent players. They are known quantities and they have shown that they don't belong in this league. Don't immediately drop your leading scorer and then hope you can replace his goal production with new players coming in. Houston knew they could get rid of DeRo because they had Holden ready to take over the reigns. They didn't hope they could find someone on the transfer market.

With De Rosario and his little tantrum, I would do something symbolic first like stripping him of the captaincy. If he goes into a bigger huff and deliberately doesn't perform on the field, then maybe consider getting rid of him. But don't start with that tactic.

[Vic]

The guy produces on the field. All this b.s. about warm and fuzzy in the locker room is like a bunch of teenage girls yammering on someone who insulted a player's hair. We whine when we don't have players who score a dozen goals, and then when we do we whine because they don't have the shut-up and take it three-bags-full-sir of a fringe 18 year old.

North American sports is pure capitalism. It's each man for himself by nature and design. Applying the ethics and ideals of amateur gentlemanly sports from the 50's is great for owners and marketing, but if the game is your livelihood and you're the only one looking after your career I can understand being proactive.

Great players are often characters. The loose screw or differently wired way of thinking is what makes them great and stand out from the millions of others. If I had a choice between watching players like Best, Gascoigne, Cantona, and Maradonna, or watching a bunch of really nice gracious middle-of-the-road guys, I know where I'm going. And not just because I actually enjoy the freaks, the flakes, and the entertainers. Because I love talent. Art and artists are two different things.

[paul-collins]

The guy produces on the field. All this b.s. about warm and fuzzy in the locker room is like a bunch of teenage girls yammering on someone who insulted a player's hair.

Judging by the on-field attitude last night (granted, second-hand from u-sector) they ARE teenage girls. So it's relevant.

He produces goals. We want wins. Related but not the same.

I have no problem with characters except if they make the other players they're surrounded by worse.

[Richard]

I too have no objection to eccentricity but there is a big difference between eccentricity and DeRo's boorish kind of behaviour.

[Vic]

Too funny Paul. Yes wins and I haven't seen enough TFC games to hold an opinion on his part in that either way. What makes me play worse is playing with bad players. It's a pretty subjective arena and again, haven't seen enough for an opinion.

Richard there are sure a lot of great boorish players out there, including the greatest players in North American sports. Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretzky. Do some research into them and pull the covers back. I don't disagree with you, I'd rather they were polite, kind and courteous too so I could put them on a pedestal. But again if it's a choice between watching socially imperfect great players or socially perfect good players, I'm there to see soccer not role models.

[dyslexic nam]

While I don't doubt that DeRo has some locker room issues (especially after he signed that cheque), think about the following statement by PJ:

"Replacing de Rosario’s firepower (12 goals so far this season) can be achieved through investment on three new designated players, only this time the right ones."

So he is advising to get rid of a non-DP (and probably the most recognized MNT member) because we can replace his offensive firepower with a mere 3 Designated Players. Now I admit that I don't write for the Globe, and I had trouble passing calculus back in the day, but to me that statement gets the math wrong and seems like a damned good reason to keep DeRo. Even with his strong disliike of DeRo, PJ has identified just how hard it would be to replace his offensive output - he only has one goal less that Angel for christsake, and he plays with the TFC. I think it is pretty clear how difficult it would be for TFC to adequately replace deRo.

I don't think he is captain material - just like I didn't think JDG is captain material. But if you are going to argue that a player should be let go, you should come up with a stronger argument than the fact that he could be adequately replaced by a couple of DP's. Who in this league couldn't? Here's an idea - keep DeRo and sign a world class DP striker (or two since PJ is all for 3 DP's) for him and JDG to work with.

There may be a bad vibe in the locker room right now, but one thing I have always found to improve team morale is to kick the living $hit out of your opponents. If TFC get a few players that would allow them to win more games, I have no doubt that the mood would brighten considerably.

[Grizzly]

I love Will Johnson. I really do. But the idea of replacing Dero with him doesn't fill me with enthusiasm. I know James goes on to say that you can replace his scoring with 3 new DPs but that's a gamble. With De Rosario you have a known quantity, you know exactly what you are getting with him. To toss that away like James is suggesting is ridiculous.

The way to rebuild a team is to get rid of the dead weight first. Maybe try releasing Mista and replacing his contract with a couple decent players. Then get rid of your outside backs and replacing them with decent players. They are known quantities and they have shown that they don't belong in this league. Don't immediately drop your leading scorer and then hope you can replace his goal production with new players coming in. Houston knew they could get rid of DeRo because they had Holden ready to take over the reigns. They didn't hope they could find someone on the transfer market.

With De Rosario and his little tantrum, I would do something symbolic first like stripping him of the captaincy. If he goes into a bigger huff and deliberately doesn't perform on the field, then maybe consider getting rid of him. But don't start with that tactic.

The question is how much his attitude is affecting the rest of his teammates. TFC is a team which as a whole doesn't have a good attitude and when the captain also has a poor attitude that doesn't help. It is not even about whether he sulks or not but whether he is really showing the proper example to the rest of his teammates particularly the younger ones. Yes, he usually gives and effort and works hard but is he working hard for the team or doing his own thing? Plus, regardless of the goals he scores, when he is not scoring he is mostly a negative on the pitch due to his selfish play and this often negates the positive of his goals. Although not exact in all details I think the Yashin comparison is apt and remember that the Sens played much better in the year that Yashin sat out despite all predictions to the contrary. Then Yashin came back and scored a lot of goals but the team as a whole played worse. I think if TFC could get a good young player like Johnson who would also clear some salary cap room that it would be a good deal for them.

DeRo has almost always played poorly for the national team especially against strong opposition and there have always been a lot of questions about his attitude and negative influence on teammates. As far as his ability on the field the only role I could see for him now is as a substitute striker to bring on in the last 15 minutes of a game when we need a goal and the opposing defenders are tired. However, I think this gesture confirms 100% all the questions we have had about DeRo's attitude in the past. If I were Hart he would never play another MNT game again after making this gesture. His attitude is not worth his mediocre contribution to the national team and we play better as a team without him. With young players like Jackson who have a better attitude and are more skilled, why should DeRo get called again?

[jpg75]

I'm guessing his point is that the loss of DeRo offensively would be more than offset with the addition of 3 new players who would likely be competent offensive players. As it stands right now we have 3 players making the league limit of $335K (Julian, Mista and DeRo - even if he isn't a DP he takes up the cap space of a DP). If we jettison all 3 then it stands to reason that with the addition of the right 3 players (and that's the kicker) this team would have no problems coping with the loss of a 12 goal scorer.

[guppy]

TFC is really good at shipping players out on some pretext only to watch them thrive somewhere else. Shipping them out without any improvement of the position. Doing it with Dero would be just another example. Keep the talentless ones that are easy to manage. Old ways die hard I guess!

[RS]

DeRo has almost always played poorly for the national team

FFS, I'm pissed off with DeRo about his selfishness right now, but this statement is among the most ludicrous things I've seen written today (and I spent a fair amount of time on the RPB board a few hours ago).

So it's your assertion that of his 55 appearances for Canada, that in the vast majority of them (ie. "almost always") he played poorly? Really?

Or is the better assertion that in recent years, when you expected more of him as something of a "star" player, he hasn't lived up to your expectations?

One is hyperbole, the other is not.

[jonovision]

FFS, I'm pissed off with DeRo about his selfishness right now, but this statement is among the most ludicrous things I've seen written today (and I spent a fair amount of time on the RPB board a few hours ago).

So it's your assertion that of his 55 appearances for Canada, that in the vast majority of them (ie. "almost always") he played poorly? Really?

Or is the better assertion that in recent years, when you expected more of him as something of a "star" player, he hasn't lived up to your expectations?

One is hyperbole, the other is not.

I look at it this way. As a guy who's role on the NT has been to score goals (and with the freelancing style he prefers, there really can be no other) he's done an OK job of it. But rarely against good teams, in games that matter. In the last 3 years I've been almost uniformly disappointed with how disinterested he often looks, and how little an impact he has had in the games.

[RJB]

So it's your assertion that of his 55 appearances for Canada, that in the vast majority of them (ie. "almost always") he played poorly? Really?

I think that yes, the majority of his performances for Canada have been poor. That has always exposed him as a player who could never threaten to leave to Europe.

[Cheeta]

Few thoughts after the latest developments.

Isn't DDR a couple of years late into his career to pull off this sort of a stunt?

Whether or not you'd like to keep him anymore the fact remains at this point into his career he's nothing but downside. Not saying he still couldn't be TFC's most important player for a year or two to come yet, just saying the need for a younger goal scoring replacement is coming regardless of whether DDR stays or goes.

Anyone, including Paul James, who thinks they can replace the goals DDR has scored for TFC in the last couple of seasons just-like-that is either out of their head or wishing for a whole lot of good luck. The evidence is overwhelming, in MLS and pretty much any other financially challenged league around the world, it's a hard, hard, ask of a manager to find reliable goal-scorers on a budget. And that's the point isn't it?

If TFC wants to put up the cash they can pretty much do anything can't they? But will $2M or $3M worth of signings replace DDR's goal scoring achievements? Maybe. And maybe DDR will go on a dry spell and net sweet eff all next season no matter who he's playing for but I'd suggest the safe bet is on Dero having another good year in 2011, just like his lengthy track record up to this point has shown. And he'll do it for a Hell of a lot less than $3M. Don't doubt for a second the lads up stairs at TFC/MLSE aren't thinking about that. Which is the cheapest, safest move? Bringing in expensive players on speculation or throwing De-ro a few extra bucks and holding onto this proven MLS goal scorer?

As has been mentioned, unless Mr de Rosario is an absolute cancer in the locker room, I'm pretty sure I know which way the TFC brass will answer the above question.

(Would like to mention at this point there is a HUGE difference between having a "challenging" player in the locker room and having a "difficult" player in the locker room. Huge. And good management can identify the difference).

Lastly, I've been a real critic of DDR over the years but to my eye he's come a long way in the last couple of years. Yes, he's still a hard fit into any program but he isn't nearly as much of a conflicted attacking choice as he was a few short years ago. His tactical acumen has definitively improved, at least to a point where his selfishness isn't enough of a liability that it out weighs his positive individual contributions.

[BearcatSA]

(Would like to mention at this point there is a HUGE difference between having a "challenging" player in the locker room and having a "difficult" player in the locker room. Huge. And good management can identify the difference).

Lastly, I've been a real critic of DDR over the years but to my eye he's come a long way in the last couple of years. Yes, he's still a hard fit into any program but he isn't nearly as much of a conflicted attacking choice as he was a few short years ago. His tactical acumen has definitively improved, at least to a point where his selfishness isn't enough of a liability that it out weighs his positive individual contributions.

Could you elaborate more on the highlighted point? Thanks.

Recent shenanigans aside, I like DeRo as an MLS level player and IMO he's been the success at TFC I thought he would be. Like you, I have been critical of his play at times but in this league he's got the savoir faire to make things happen. With his offensive strengths he still has his weaknesses in the attacking side of game and these get magnified at international level: as much as some people like him in a "free"/roaming attacking role, I never felt that translated effectively in his NT appearences against the top sides in our region, let alone elsewhere. But concentrating on the MLS side of this thread, I think trying to replace his goal contributions are going to be pretty challenging.

As much as I've questioned the money spent on JDG or criticized DeRo the biggest thing for me with this team is the limited ceiling/ability of the support players, but especially the international signings this year. As I have said before elsewhere, apart from the bench warming Robbo in NYC I can't think of any non North American players signed to an original MLS contract by TFC who remained in this league after leaving Toronto. I can't see the likes of the Latvian, the Russian, the Croat-Argentine, and others sticking in this league even on half their current wages. I know a number of people want a quick fix with three DPs or what have you, but I just don't see that happening if the management opts to retain the current core of the incumbent supporting cast.