MLSE Is Not A Charity

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Where did I argue against the idea that there are plenty of reasons to be less than impressed with how TFC has been run? The reality is that the supporters of most clubs around the world could could up with similar tales of woe so that's nothing out of the ordinary. Move beyond the Man United and Barcelona type clubs in Europe where support is easy and you tend to see a smallish hardcore that hang in there year after year with a larger number of gloryhunters who will show up for cup finals. In the initial euphoria over having a team both groups were initially attracted to TFC games but now enthusiasm is starting to wane. Nothing out of the ordinary or hugely surprising in that. It happened in other MLS cities as well in the early years of the league.

If the quality of MLS were higher it would be easier to keep people interested but it's more of a AAA product than a genuine major league at the moment relative to the top leagues in the world. On the bright side the one thing MLSE have going for them in that regard to try to reignite the excitement is that they have yet to use a DP roster spot on a genuine marque player like Beckham, Blanco or Henry. The next summer transfer window might be the ideal time for another Roberto Bettega to arrive on the scene.

[Havoc88]

There is nothing wrong with supporters saying enough when it comes to this ticket package. IMO it doesn't make you a fairweather fan or bandwagon jumper. There is plenty of evidence all over Europe of supporters being priced out, them not renewing does not make them less of supporters.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I have some sympathy for people in the expensive seats who think the extra strings attached this season were a step too far given the way it has become difficult for them to sell tickets to games they can't attend. That's what TFC appear to have addressed to a certain extent with the new pricing. I find the angst less credible from an affordability standpoint in the context of the supporter's section given $2 a game is what is being argued about. There is a very different tone right now amongst different sections of the fanbase with from what I can see people who supported pro soccer in southern Ontario prior to 2007 tending to make significantly less fuss than people who were new to the scene in 2007.

[Richard]

Thanks for pointing out the obvious Richard. And next time try to convey your message a little clearer, your sympathy comes across as pomposity.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, even you.

[Havoc88]

I have some sympathy for people in the expensive seats who think the extra strings attached this season were a step too far given the way it has become difficult for them to sell tickets to games they can't attend. That's what TFC appear to have addressed to a certain extent with the new pricing. I find the angst less credible from an affordability standpoint in the context of the supporter's section given $2 a game is what is being argued about. There is a very different tone right now amongst different sections of the fanbase with from what I can see people who supported pro soccer in southern Ontario prior to 2007 tending to make significantly less fuss than people who were new to the scene in 2007.

Although not certainly the case 100% - people bought expensive seats because that is what they can afford. People bought 'cheap' seats because that is what they can afford. The increase you note has resulted in the area of 75% over the four years and is getting to the point where people are genuinely getting priced out.

IMO someone who decides to keep forking over their money for fear of being labeled a fairweather fan or bandwagon jumper is no more a supporter than the one who has to make a choice between going in the hole or putting that money towards their kid, mortgage, bills, etc. but continues to support TFC through other means.

[RS]

IMO someone who decides to keep forking over their money for fear of being labeled a fairweather fan or bandwagon jumper is no more a supporter than the one who has to make a choice between going in the hole or putting that money towards their kid, mortgage, bills, etc. but continues to support TFC through other means.

Let me get this straight. Are you saying that people who are renewing are simply doing so because they are "afriad" of being labeled a fairweather fan?

I just want to make sure before I respond.

On another note, I don't think I've ever agreed more with BBTB's posts than I have in this thread.

[Havoc88]

Let me get this straight. Are you saying that people who are renewing are simply doing so because they are "afriad" of being labeled a fairweather fan?

No of course not. I'm just saying some who aren't renewing aren't doing it because they are 'over it' or are going to go start supporting New York.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

IMO someone who decides to keep forking over their money for fear of being labeled a fairweather fan or bandwagon jumper is no more a supporter than the one who has to make a choice between going in the hole or putting that money towards their kid, mortgage, bills, etc. but continues to support TFC through other means.

I seriously doubt that you would be able to find anyone who fits the category you describe. You are projecting your own attitudes onto people with a different outlook on the issues. There is a fundamental difference in attitude between being a diehard supporter of a team, who might grumble a bit initially but is soon willing to dig a bit deeper into their pocket to find an extra $2 a game if it helps fund new infrastructure for training and player development and the hiring of technical staff and DP players that should enhance the likelihood of their team winning down the road, and being an irate consumer of an entertainment product, who demands on-field success as a precondition for future ticket purchases in a narrow value for money sort of way and doesn't see the purchase of a season ticket as being part of a wider collective effort on the part of the core support to put the foundation in place in terms of the funding required to facilitate on-field success.

Beyond that people can still be a fan of a team obviously if they stop paying for tickets and going to games and opt to watch games in a bar or in their basement instead but they cease being a supporter at that point. People in groups like RPB sometimes lose sight of the fact that there is a financial as well as a vocal component involved to the concept of support. The "prawns" may not make as much noise at games but having people pay $4000 per season for a pair of seats in the main stand is extremely important to TFC's ability to do things like signing a goalscoring DP. I suspect MLSE's recent partial U-turn on pricing was based primarily on a sluggish renewal rate in the more expensive portions of the stadium rather than what has been happening with regards to the supporter's section, which as recent CONCACAF Champions League games have demonstrated is by far the easiest portion of the stadium to fill. They were asking most of the "prawns" to pay a considerable amount of money in advance for something they had opted not to attend this season and that probably really upset some people given the obvious difficulty likely to be faced in selling those tickets on to other people relative to MLS regular season games.

[Michael Crampton]

I seriously doubt that you would be able to find anyone who fits the category you describe. You are projecting your own attitudes onto people with a different outlook on the issues. There is a fundamental difference in attitude between being a diehard supporter of a team, who might grumble a bit initially but is soon willing to dig a bit deeper into their pocket to find an extra $2 a game if it helps fund new infrastructure for training and player development and the hiring of technical staff and DP players that should enhance the likelihood of their team winning down the road, and being an irate consumer of an entertainment product, who demands on-field success as a precondition for future ticket purchases in a narrow value for money sort of way and doesn't see the purchase of a season ticket as being part of a wider collective effort on the part of the core support to put the foundation in place in terms of the funding required to facilitate on-field success.

You've lost the plot. The bolded statement makes it sound like TFC is a fan run charitable organization incapable of turning a profit for its private ownership.

I'm disappointed because TFC's handling of ticket renewals makes me fell like a "consumer of an entertainment product" who will be priced out one day so long as there's someone else willing to pay more rather than a valued partner who committed money early and loyally (regardless of results) to help make this club successful.

TFC is not some small Scottish club that survives on the backs of 5000 diehards and the beneficence of its board members. It's more akin to the elite group of English clubs who started turning themselves into entertainment products 20 years ago and have been pricing out their traditional working class support ever since. Who do you think MLSE models TFC after? And they're doing this while MLS is still a budget league in both global soccer and North American major team sports terms. And before people have had the opportunity to develop a long term emotional connection to the team.

It's rude, it's crass, it's short sighted, and it makes me wish we did have a more developed network of football clubs so that I could support a team that doesn't, year after year, remind me that, at the end of the day, I'm just a customer to them. I'd trade glory for authenticity; results be damned. And it makes me sad every time TFC pushes me in that direction.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

In reality the bolded bit describes what I see as being additional expenditures that potentially justify a price hike at this point in time. It would be a different story if the team were being operated with expenses kept to an absolute minimum (i.e. no DP signings, training camp primarily indoors at the Soccer Centre in Vaughan rather than prolonged trips to Florida and preseason tournaments in Charleston etc, the Mo Edu money used on a new fieldturf installation rather than grass to enable a further ramping up of public access usage of the stadium and as an excuse for no new training facility, Dasovic and Cochrane appointed as coach and GM, TFC Academy consisting of only a couple of token youth teams in OYSL with volunteer coaches rather than a professionally run operation in the CSL) and price hikes were clearly all about maximizing corporate profit.

[Havoc88]

I seriously doubt that you would be able to find anyone who fits the category you describe.

Well I met at least three of them last night at the townhall. I made that point not because it relates to me but a friend who I meet up with each week at the game.

There is a fundamental difference in attitude between being a diehard supporter of a team, who might grumble a bit initially but is soon willing to dig a bit deeper into their pocket to find an extra $2 a game if it helps fund new infrastructure for training and player development and the hiring of technical staff and DP players that should enhance the likelihood of their team winning down the road, and being an irate consumer of an entertainment product, who demands on-field success as a precondition for future ticket purchases in a narrow value for money sort of way and doesn't see the purchase of a season ticket as being part of a wider collective effort on the part of the core support to put the foundation in place in terms of the funding required to facilitate on-field success.

It's much more than $2 a game. It's 77% increase in the last four years and by next year you'd be pushing 100%. I notice you said "IF" it helps ... and therein lies the problem. What evidence has been given that anything you've listed which makes it acceptable is going to happen? You don't seem to have much faith in Anselmi but now you think we're going hire the right technical staff and sign the right DPs? What evidence from the last four years, or any of MLSE's franchises can you point me to that shows this is going to happen and "enhance the likelihood of their team winning down the road"?

Beyond that people can still be a fan of a team obviously if they stop paying for tickets and going to games and opt to watch games in a bar or in their basement instead but they cease being a supporter at that point.

So the only requisite for being a supporter is to pay money?

Just out of curiosity, where are your season's tickets?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Well I met at least three of them last night at the townhall. I made that point not because it relates to me but a friend who I meet up with each week at the game. So believe it or not not everyone at BMO is upper middle class.

Getting a bit bizarre now. What does being upper middle class have to with people only renewing for fear of being accused of being a fairweather fan and why would you think that social status applies to me based on anything I have written in this thread? I only have one seat right now and it's in the supporters section. It was obvious to me at the time that the 2007 price was very much an introductory one and what people are clearly losing sight of is that the initial pricing scheme was set at a time when people were still far from certain that TFC would be able to sell 10,000 tickets per game let alone 20,000. I find it hard to believe that anyone was naive enough to think that $11 a game either could or would last so this all looks like empty posturing to me given the number of people I see in the south end drinking $12 beers and wearing the latest replica shirt both things I personally try to avoid (sometimes can't resist on the beer but have never bought a replica shirt) because I see it as a senseless waste of cash. There are clearly deeper issues at work where a lot of people are concerned that have nothing to do with ticket affordability.

[Havoc88]

Getting a bit bizarre now. What does being upper middle class have to with people only renewing for fear of being accused of being a fairweather fan and why would you think that social status applies to me based on anything I have written in this thread? I only have one seat right now and it's in the supporters section. It was obvious to me at the time that the 2007 price was very much an introductory one and what people are clearly losing sight of is that the initial pricing scheme was set at a time when people were still far from certain that TFC would be able to sell 10,000 tickets per game let alone 20,000. I find it hard to believe that anyone was naive enough to think that $11 a game either could or would last so this all looks like empty posturing to me given the number of people I see in the south end drinking $12 beers and wearing the latest replica shirt both things I personally try to avoid (sometimes can't resist on the beer but have never bought a replica shirt) because I see it as a senseless waste of cash. There are clearly deeper issues at work where a lot of people are concerned that have nothing to do with ticket affordability.

Well that's why I took that line out

I know from the townhall last night that the majority of the questions related to ticket prices and affordability but maybe you are right and there really was another issue at play.

This can go on forever but the truth is I came in on this because of the statement that was made to no one in particular about fairweathers/bandwagon jumpers now being able to exit left because of this increase when I really think it is a generalization and that some aren't either. That is fine with regards to the cost but again as I noted, there are people who might not renew who aren't going to end up at a Jays game or wearing a RedBulls jersey.

[AvroArrow]

From two different BBTB posts:

There is a fundamental difference in attitude between being a diehard supporter of a team, who might grumble a bit initially but is soon willing to dig a bit deeper into their pocket to find an extra $2 a game if it helps fund new infrastructure for training and player development and the hiring of technical staff and DP players that should enhance the likelihood of their team winning down the road.

___________________

I find it hard to believe that anyone was naive enough to think that $11 a game either could or would last so this all looks like empty posturing to me given the number of people I see in the south end drinking $12 beers and wearing the latest replica shirt both things I personally try to avoid (sometimes can't resist on the beer but have never bought a replica shirt) because I see it as a senseless waste of cash.

You are not willing to buy a replica shirt? Think of all the training and infastructure they could build/improve with that money! You must not be a true supporter. Please leave the team to us hardcare fans you imposter!

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

So if people are willing to spend an extra $60 or whatever on buying a replica shirt rather than a red TFC t-shirt (what I tend to do) why all the angst over an extra $40 on the season ticket in the supporters section when the difference in the number of games is taken into account? It's clearly got nothing to do with affordability when three fewer beers consumed over the course of a season is all you need to do to recoup the money.

[AvroArrow]

You seem to have missed the point BBTB, but I'll go with your train of thought then.

You aren't willing to spend an extra $50 on a replica shirt (assuming your red t-shirt cost you $10) in order to help TFC develope talent and build infrastructure. In your mind this is ok. Other people are not willing to continually pony up additional money for season tickets. In your mind, this is not ok, because a true supporter should be willing to front some cash to help out the club.

Please give me an exact dollar amount I need to contribute to MLSE so that I may qualify as a true fan. Would it be $25? $19.67 (in honour of the Leafs)? This is very important to me. I don't want to be defined as a fake fan!

[Scorpio]

It looks like all this attention made the NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/17/sports/soccer/17mls.html

[Scorpio]

I'm just wondering, do any of the TFC supporters clubs have an actual figure of how many of their members are walking with their wallet and not renewing?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Please give me an exact dollar amount I need to contribute to MLSE so that I may qualify as a true fan. Would it be $25? $19.67 (in honour of the Leafs)? This is very important to me. I don't want to be defined as a fake fan!

The point I was making was that in a supporters section context the money angle is not as pivotal as some people have made out. I strongly suspect that a lot of people are simply losing interest right now because TFC appear to be turning into a perennial alsoran rather than the dominant team everybody was hoping to see emerge when the first home game was played back in 2007.

[AvroArrow]

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Columnists/Wheeler/2010/10/15/15701466.html

I still remember my first interview with Mo Johnston, way back before the team had played its first game. I asked him about bringing a Designated Player to the club. Johnston told me it was unnecessary, because "the tickets are sold."

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

That's a case of being quoted selectively by the journalist. I can remember Mo Johnston also saying that there was no point having a DP in place initially from a soccer standpoint and they would wait a couple of seasons to get things up to full speed before considering using the DP roster spot.

[Cheeta]

That's a case of being quoted selectively by the journalist. I can remember Mo Johnston also saying that there was no point having a DP in place initially from a soccer standpoint and they would wait a couple of seasons to get things up to full speed before considering using the DP roster spot.

Interesting scheme.

Myself, I'd have gone another way. Signed a DP I could build a team around, and then gone about the business of building around him but whatever. To each their own.

And easier said than done. It's a funny league. The whole notion of signing DPs, salary caps and all that. Very peculiar.

[Havoc88]

Goes to show though the total lack of vision or creativity by those running the club. Instead of saying, "hmmm here is a rule in place we could use as a competitive advantage" they (and in other cases as well) said, "well nobody else was really doing it so why should we?"

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

A snippet of info people may not be aware of on here is that Robbie Fowler was potentially available for a salary of $1 million back in 2007 but they decided not to pursue it and he wound up at Cardiff City instead. Third hand info originally emanating from Mo Johnston by all accounts.

[narduch]

TFC just decreased the season ticket price again for 2011. They have made the home opener free to all renewing season ticket holders.

They have also promised to freeze prices for 2012.