narduch Posted September 24, 2010 Share Posted September 24, 2010 Somebody mentioned MLSE's marketing success, that's not true. The Leafs sell themselves, they've done a horrible job with the Raptors and Marlies. I think its becoming increasingly clear that MLSE is more lucky than smart when it comes to business success. If they are such marketing geniuses why are they having such a hard time selling out anymore? Why are the CCL games such a hard sell? If the much vaunted waiting list wasn't a fraud people would be lining up to grab these tickets. And speaking of marketing, its pretty sad that after 4 seasons they are still using the fans as their main marketing tool. That's all they have to try to get people to the game. Not much on field success for them to market. It always comes back to the fans. But to thank these same fans they market the **** out of, they continue to try to squeeze them out with higher prices. Instead, what MLSE has shown they are good at is squeezing every last cent possible from the people who do care. But what happens when they go overboard and people don't want to take it anymore. I think this is the off-season where we see this happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 24, 2010 Share Posted September 24, 2010 The "cool place to be" thing has been repeated a lot by the traditional sports media types because they don't like to face the reality that soccer fans are out there in comparable numbers to hockey, baseball and football. With a season ticket base of 16,000 what has been driving attendance in a 20,000 seat stadium up to now is soccer fans who are hardcore enough about the sport to pay for 18 or so games in advance. If TFC were playing in a league comparable to the Premiership and serie A or were consistent championship contenders maintaining that level of interest and even building on it would be easy. MLS is a step down from those kind of leagues, however, and is set up in a way that ensures competitive parity and makes it difficult to build a dominant club based on the stronger finances that go with having the biggest crowds so we are likely to see some people drifting away as the initial euphoria wears off. It will be interesting to see how many people on the season ticket waiting list will step in to take their place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted September 24, 2010 Share Posted September 24, 2010 Yes Richard, i'm sure Jerry Moyes appreciated losing $300 Million in an 8 year period and then being forced to sell his club to the NHL at a lower price then to Balsillie. Free market at work.... Check this list, see any pattern?: http://www.forbes.com/lists/2009/31/hockey-values-09_NHL-Team-Valuations_Rank.html Rank Team Operating Income ($mil) 18 Tampa Bay Lightning -2.2 21 Carolina Hurricanes -4.6 26 Florida Panthers -13.6 27 Nashville Predators -5.7 29 Atlanta Thrashers -1.8 30 Phoenix Coyotes -18.5 What does this have to do with TFC and MLSE? I don't know Richard, i recall mentioning that people in this city are pretty pissed at MLSE for ruining the Leafs and that they see the same things happening with TFC. Fans are sick of getting gouged by the monopolistic sports conglomerate in this city and they're looking to fight back. You sway in with your free market nonsense and i'm arguing that it isn't free market; it's controlled and they are constricting demand. Stick another Hockey team in this city and you'll quickly see MLSE change its tune, and eventually fans might stop directing their anger towards them. I have little more than a passing interest in NHL hockey so have no argument with your statistics. My original response was to your anti-competition assertions which I argued are an internal NHL issue i.e. they are self imposed. You have never denied that. And if enough of the owners didn't like Bettman's policies they could fire him if they really wanted to, he is a servant of the league, he does not own it. It really is that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e_2 Posted September 24, 2010 Share Posted September 24, 2010 The "cool place to be" thing has been repeated a lot by the traditional sports media types because they don't like to face the reality that soccer fans are out there in comparable numbers to hockey, baseball and football. So what about their motivations? It is still true. You conveniently ignore my Jays comment. What happened to the 4-million Jays fans? They all disappeared? The Toronto Rock used to sell out the first few years. I just googled their attendance for last season was officially at around 10,000 and who knows how accurate that number is. To give you a meaningless anecdotal example, I went to a few Rock games in the beginning with some friends. None of us were lacrosse fans. It was entertainment. It was simply going to the game instead of a movie. I had no emotional interest in the Rock at all, couldn't name 1 player, had no interest in the game of lacrosse. I haven't gone in years, have no clue how they do, have never watched a game on tv, have never bought any merchandise, etc. You can deny it all you want, but the exact same thing is happening with TFC right now. Again, more meaningless anecdotes, I know a couple people who have TFC tickets who have absolutely no interest in soccer. My point is that there is a lot more of these types of people than you wish to admit, and more than I think MLSE realizes. And as you know full well, there's a huge difference between saying there is a lot of soccer fans in the area, and a lot of TFC fans. It will be interesting to see how many people on the season ticket waiting list will step in to take their place. This is what it all comes down to. But, my point is that even if most of the tickets are taken by the waiting list, if the fan clubs are priced out and their is no atmosphere, most of these new ticket buyers will be gone in a year as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 25, 2010 Share Posted September 25, 2010 With 16,000 out of 20,000 seats sold to season ticket holders attendance has not been driven by the casual fan suddenly deciding they want to go down to BMO Field for a party no matter how much Steve Simmons types like to delude themselves that has been the case. The bulk of those season ticket sales were made before a game had ever been played when people had no idea what the atmosphere was going to be like at games with close to half being in place before the announcement of the Beckham signing. Given the Blue Jays have 81 home games there was always considerably less scope for season ticket sales in that context. What has killed their attendance more than anything else is that they can't compete with the Yankees and Red Sox financially and have become a perennial also ran. If they were able to make it back to the World Series again the FAN590 sort of demographic would quickly jump back on the bandwagon. My guess on the Rock would be that initially they used comp tickets to generate announced sellouts and get people in the building to sample the product and now they don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macksam Posted September 25, 2010 Share Posted September 25, 2010 If TFC were playing in a league comparable to the Premiership and serie A or were consistent championship contenders maintaining that level of interest and even building on it would be easy. MLS is a step down from those kind of leagues, however, and is set up in a way that ensures competitive parity and makes it difficult to build a dominant club based on the stronger finances that go with having the biggest crowds so we are likely to see some people drifting away as the initial euphoria wears off. . The competitive parity isn't a bad factor at all. If MLS had NFL type revenues, no body would be turned off by the competitive parity of the league. It all comes down to quality of play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 25, 2010 Share Posted September 25, 2010 In my earlier posts in this thread I have repeatedly stated that the competitive parity of MLS is something I hope never changes but there is an adjustment involved for people more used to supporting a team like Manchester United where large crowds usually translates more directly into on field success. I suspect some people who will only back a consistent winner are going to drift away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag futbol Posted September 25, 2010 Share Posted September 25, 2010 I think its becoming increasingly clear that MLSE is more lucky than smart when it comes to business success. Agreed, the way the customers are treated around here is with borderline contempt. The leafs have been bulletproof for a very long time, but one day all those people with fond nostalgia will be gone and the next generation will be somewhat lethargic. They'll have nothing good to remember about the club. That probably won't stop the leafs from being the biggest game in town and still drawing good numbers. But in terms of growth in profitability? forget it. The situations they put themselves in are just not sustainable. You can't offer a poor product and bad prices continually and not have it boomerang back to bite you in the ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e_2 Posted September 25, 2010 Share Posted September 25, 2010 With 16,000 out of 20,000 seats sold to season ticket holders attendance has not been driven by the casual fan suddenly deciding they want to go down to BMO Field for a party no matter how much Steve Simmons types like to delude themselves that has been the case. The bulk of those season ticket sales were made before a game had ever been played when people had no idea what the atmosphere was going to be like at games with close to half being in place before the announcement of the Beckham signing. How many season tickets are bought by scalpers? How many season tickets are sponsors/corporate which are given to employees, clients, etc.? How many season tickets are shared between people? All those groups are casual fans. And I'm willing to bet it's a much bigger slice than you think it is. The true measure of support is the Voyageurs Cup and CCL competitions. There were 15,000 against the Caps this year and just under 17,000 vs Cruz Azul. All the situations I mentioned apply to the Leafs, so it's pretty funny that you deny it applies to TFC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgnewf Posted September 27, 2010 Author Share Posted September 27, 2010 The Voice Of The Irate Fan http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2010/09/the-voice-of-the-irate-fan/ In video form, some fans react to the 2011 TFC Season Ticket price increase. Your comments are always welcomed and appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdroze Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 Along the lines of fans getting disenchanted by the high price of tickets to sporting events, I just read this year-old article (via the RPB site) that describes situation with the Yankees. It's a fascinating look at what it's like to experience the top-of-the-line seats, but also relating that to how the economics of it all is affecting the fans. I've excerpted the following passage, and though it's mostly about baseball and other major American sports, I think that it's just as applicable to ML$E and its properties: ... a business should sell its product for as much as it can, as long as it's not putting temporary profit over long-term growth. When a business makes that mistake, longtime pollster Rich Luker calls it harvesting. Starbucks is struggling, he says, because it harvested. Wal-Mart is not because it hasn't. "The American sports industry is in harvest mode," Luker says. "The industry has lost its regard for human beings." A recent poll discovered an unsettling trend emerging for the first time. American families whose household income is $75,000 or less now have zero dollars of discretionary income. According to Luker, that means about 75 percent of the country can never responsibly afford to go to a live professional sporting event. Franchises want them to be fans, to buy the gear and pull for their teams and watch the telecasts the leagues are paid billions for. But they don't need them to come to their stadiums. There are, right now, plenty of rich people who love games. The prices reflect that. The reason sporting events cost so much now, Luker's research shows, is because they are designed to be affordable only to those making $150,000 or more a year. This wasn't always true. Ten years ago, it was cheaper to go to a baseball game than to a movie in half of the big league markets (take away parking at the game, and it was cheaper in every market). Today, there isn't a single city in America where it costs less to go to a major league game than to a movie. Everywhere we turn, we see examples of the collapsing middle class. This is where that issue lives in the world of sports, and it has predictable consequences. "The lower the income," Luker says, "the less they're enjoying sports." His August poll discovered a third of Americans are less interested in sports because of the declining economy. That's bad news, made worse by a problem he first noticed in 2004 and which has continued since: For the first time, the largest number of sports fans aren't 12- to 17-year-old boys. The baby boomers are the group that shows the greatest increase in a love of sports, and they'll be dying soon. Who will replace them? By excluding 75 percent of the population from experiencing the best part of spectator sports -- actually holding a ticket in your hand -- franchises have created a potentially fatal problem for themselves. Luker predicts the future of sports by looking at the decline of soap operas. Once, there were 30. Now, because the audience changed, there are seven. "We have the first true sustained evidence of less interest in sports than there was 10 years ago," he says. "It won't happen overnight. It will take a generation. But in general, sports will not be what it is today. We're burning out the love of sports." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 Excellent find! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 A recent poll discovered an unsettling trend emerging for the first time. American families whose household income is $75,000 or less now have zero dollars of discretionary income. According to Luker, that means about 75 percent of the country can never responsibly afford to go to a live professional sporting event. The reason sporting events cost so much now, Luker's research shows, is because they are designed to be affordable only to those making $150,000 or more a year. I don't disagree with the general thrust of the article and we have especially seen hockey price itself out of the affordability of the average fan. However, I have to call BS on the assertion that below $75000 household incomes don't have money for discretionary income and the assertion that you need twice as much to attend sporting events. If you are making $75 000 in the US especially with low taxes you should be able to afford some discretionary income. Of course many people may be living beyond their means in large houses or with several cars but don't expect me to cry them a river that they can't afford sporting events. In my opinion the big problem with sports ticket prices stems from the business tax breaks that governments give companies as entertainment expenses thus subsidizing the tickets they buy and creating a false, non-free inflationary market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narduch Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 Didn't want to start a new thread, but rumours are circulating that TFC are going to remove 2 CCL games from the season ticket package and lower the price. It looks like the supposed genuises at MLSE got their lesson in supply and demand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 Don't really see the point. Instead of $12 per dozen they are now offering $10 for 10. Unit price doesn't change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 Don't really see the point. Instead of $12 per dozen they are now offering $10 for 10. Unit price doesn't change. Perhaps some people would prefer to buy 10 instead of a dozen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFCRegina Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/torontofc/article/874347--tfc-moves-to-quell-supporters-revolt?sms_ss=twitter&at_xt=4cb505e9cefe413a,0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 ....and the circus continues. The renewal rate must be significantly lower than they had anticipated so time for some populism to try to appease the masses. Some of the comments are a bit bizarre from a soccer standpoint. Did Tom Anselmi not grasp that being way over the cap in 2009 due to the short term use of allocation money with an imminent expiry date would mean that changes would have to be made for 2010 in the absence of the rumoured substantial raise of the cap as part of the new CBA negotiations (one of Mo's failed gambles) and that a team that meekly surrenders 15 points in the last few minutes of games and lets in 5 goals in a critical season closing game against a team with nothing to play for might have some character issues that need to be addressed? Depressing that Anselmi still doesn't realize that the GM needs a soccer knowledgeable person in his club president role and that the new GM should get to decide whether Earl Cochrane and Jim Brennan will work under him but not in any way surprising in human psychology terms. Richard Peddie and Larry Tannenbaum would have to be the ones to sort that one out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narduch Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 Don't really see the point. Instead of $12 per dozen they are now offering $10 for 10. Unit price doesn't change. Classic. You are clueless as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdroze Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 Could we keep the girly-slapping to a minimum? I happen to agree that this is a pointless gesture, designed to look like they're doing something significant to appease the fans, when it only addresses one of the many complaints that season ticket holders have: 1) MLS Cup tickets included in the package with no possibility to decline. 2) Price per ticket goes up for everybody, and most significantly for the most hardcore supporters. 3) Total cost for the package goes up significantly due to number of extra games, despite no indication that there are actually any extra expenses on MLSE's part. 4) Charging for tickets months in advance for games that the team may never play. And all that despite a team that is not progressing, has never made the playoffs, and inspires no confidence in anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 Perhaps some people would prefer to buy 10 instead of a dozen.Perhaps some would prefer packs of just three games. This is all moot (which is my point, something some people seem to have missed completely) while TFC puts such a dismal product out for sale. I suspect MLSE has seen a precipitous drop off in season ticket renewals relative to what they had expected by this stage as a result of their team's sad sack performance this season. Money or the lack thereof, that's what gets their attention. Anselmi's latest utterings quoted in today's Toronto Star rather confirms this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgnewf Posted October 13, 2010 Author Share Posted October 13, 2010 Too Little Too Late! http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2010/10/too-late/ Reaction to the changes to the 2011 TFC Season Ticket packages and why it is a case of too little too late. Your comments are always welcome and appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 ....I suspect MLSE has seen a precipitous drop off in season ticket renewals relative to what they had expected by this stage as a result of their team's sad sack performance this season...... The extension of an extra week on the renewal deadline definitely makes it look that way. I suspect a lot of people are looking for a face saving reason to jump off the bandwagon at this point so they can rationalize it in terms of being forced out somehow rather than being a fan of the fairweather variety and there's not going to be too much MLSE will be able to do about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 Perhaps some would prefer packs of just three games. This is all moot (which is my point, something some people seem to have missed completely) while TFC puts such a dismal product out for sale. I suspect MLSE has seen a precipitous drop off in season ticket renewals relative to what they had expected by this stage as a result of their team's sad sack performance this season. Money or the lack thereof, that's what gets their attention. Anselmi's latest utterings quoted in today's Toronto Star rather confirms this. Thanks for pointing out the obvious Richard. And next time try to convey your message a little clearer, your sympathy comes across as pomposity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvroArrow Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 BBTB, you continually state that people are leaving because they are bandwagon jumpers. I would argue that after 4 years, fans might be getting sick of being given the old bait and switch routine. If you are running a professional club do you: 1. Go through 5 coaches in 4 seasons? 2. Go through wholesale roster changes every season? 3. Begin the most current season without a full roster? (remember the headlines a couple days ago when the NJ Devils only dressed 15 skaters? Now imagine they did that for several games with the promise they did it as part of a big plan that we'll soon learn to appreciate in the future.) 4. Sign foreign players that have a tendency to be represented by the same agent that represented the GM? Will I cheer for TFC? Yes, they are my "local" team. But that doesn't mean I'll dump my wallet upside down and hand it over to MLSE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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