James Rips Julian

[loyola]

Actually, i think there was a mix of reactions to this. I can understand it's their private life, but it shows their commitment to the cause. The Hondurans in contrast were up early the next morning doing strength training at their hotel before flying home to kick Jamaica's ass. If you want to make it to the WC you have to be 100% focused at all times.

I was actually using this as an example of some people here finding a way to protect the players for this. I agree 100 % with what you said and that was my point back then.

[Guest Ed]

It's the agenda that bothers me. He paints a very poor picture of Julian in an article earlier this week and in previous articles but very glaringly fails to mention Julian's absence in the midfield perhaps being part of the shocking 4-0 loss to NYRB last Saturday. He is picking his moments to make comments on Julian and that shows a bias by HIM.

I don't know if I would agree that this forum is by and large too soft on players although definitely many players are highly overrated on here.

[closetboostie]

While I don't agree with everything PJ said in his reply I have to agree with one thing he said when he talks about fans overprotecting players.

I love this forum but if I had one criticism to make is the excuses we too often are making for every player that is underperforming, either with the MNT or at the club level.

How to explain Rob Friend poor scoring record with Canada? Not being used properly by a poor coach and not receiving good service!

How to explain Ali Gerba failure with TFC? Not given a fair chance and not used properly!

The same was being said about Iain Hume so-so performance with Canada or JDG with TFC.

Our players are going for a night out at Club Opera after a crucial loss in a WCQ and a few hours before leaving for an even more crucial WCQ in Mexico . Not our business, it's the players private life.

It's seems that our players are rarely responsible for their poor performances unless they are named Pat Onstad.

Yes, PJ is being hard on JDG but I can't say he is entirely wrong in his assessment of the player.

While I think it's true that you can find people on here defending pretty much every player for poor performance I don't think you can say Voyageurs go easy on national team players as a whole because of it. I think there is a divergence of opinion on most players so of course there will be an apologist in every situation.

For instance I think Friend has used up his nine lives and if he doesn't produce for the national team he should be left out, if I never see Gerba play for Canada again it won't hurt my feelings and while I wish the best for Hume I don't think he's part of the national team going forward. Do I speak for all Voyageurs when I voice those opinions? Of course not. Just as the Gerba lovers don't speak for Voyaguers when they sing his praises.

It's just convenient for Paul James to paint anyone who disagrees with him as "kowtowing fans", or "someone who has never coached". As I've said before PJ should criticize De Guzman when he deserves it, and at times he has this year, but also praise him when he performs well, as he has at other times, especially recently.

[Karam]

JDG has made TFC better. if you take the NY game that he missed for example, TFC couldn't make more than 3 passes in a row at home, as opposed to when he's playing.

And yeah he has had a lot of his passes cut out, but that's because he's forced to make difficult passes because his team doesn't know how to move into open space and make smart runs.

[BearcatSA]

While I don't agree with everything PJ said in his reply I have to agree with one thing he said when he talks about fans overprotecting players.

I love this forum but if I had one criticism to make is the excuses we too often are making for every player that is underperforming, either with the MNT or at the club level.

How to explain Rob Friend poor scoring record with Canada? Not being used properly by a poor coach and not receiving good service!

How to explain Ali Gerba failure with TFC? Not given a fair chance and not used properly!

The same was being said about Iain Hume so-so performance with Canada or JDG with TFC.

Our players are going for a night out at Club Opera after a crucial loss in a WCQ and a few hours before leaving for an even more crucial WCQ in Mexico . Not our business, it's the players private life.

It's seems that our players are rarely responsible for their poor performances unless they are named Pat Onstad.

Yes, PJ is being hard on JDG but I can't say he is entirely wrong in his assessment of the player.

I agree. I think these next two friendlies (but especially the Honduras rematch in Montreal) are very important in showing me what are so called key performers can do. There was a lot of underachievement during the last WCQ in all areas.

[Gian-Luca]

It's seems that our players are rarely responsible for their poor performances unless they are named Pat Onstad.

Or Richard Hastings. Or Andrea Lombardo. Or Paul Stalteri. Or Geoff Aunger. Or any number of other players that might spring to mind over the years. We haven't seen much of it in recent times because its been over 2 years since we've seen something really disappointing from our national team, but usually the fans on this forum can be amongst the most harsh and brutal critics. Even then it's not always when something disappointing happens - when I first got on this board people wanted to have Stalteri executed for his play in the Gold Cup - the Gold Cup that we actually won!

Fans can be some of the harshest critics and biggest defenders of the team they support, the band they follow, the tv show they watch, etc. Its what fans do, its the passion that makes them fans to begin with. This has to be kept in mind when someone in the media simply implies that all fans do is coddle and try to protect the players (something James has intimated or said a number of times). I don't see all that much in the way of people defending De Guzman's play in this thread or claiming that he's been a great DP signing - most people are annoyed with the unsubstantiated personal attacks on his character. If there are "statements" he made that "obviously" show his poor character, produce them, or don't make the claim in the first place. Especially if you are writing for the Globe and Mail. Otherwise this will come across exactly as it has - something reeking of an agenda.

[jpg75]

I was actually using this as an example of some people here finding a way to protect the players for this. I agree 100 % with what you said and that was my point back then.

I know you were and i was agreeing with you. I was just saying that there were as many dismayed by those actions (partying after losing a game) as those defending them.

[loyola]

Or Richard Hastings. Or Andrea Lombardo. Or Paul Stalteri. Or Geoff Aunger. Or any number of other players that might spring to mind over the years. We haven't seen much of it in recent times because its been over 2 years since we've seen something really disappointing from our national team, but usually the fans on this forum can be amongst the most harsh and brutal critics. Even then it's not always when something disappointing happens - when I first got on this board people wanted to have Stalteri executed for his play in the Gold Cup - the Gold Cup that we actually won!

Fans can be some of the harshest critics and biggest defenders of the team they support, the band they follow, the tv show they watch, etc. Its what fans do, its the passion that makes them fans to begin with. This has to be kept in mind when someone in the media simply implies that all fans do is coddle and try to protect the players (something James has intimated or said a number of times). I don't see all that much in the way of people defending De Guzman's play in this thread or claiming that he's been a great DP signing - most people are annoyed with the unsubstantiated personal attacks on his character. If there are "statements" he made that "obviously" show his poor character, produce them, or don't make the claim in the first place. Especially if you are writing for the Globe and Mail. Otherwise this will come across exactly as it has - something reeking of an agenda.

I guess I was using Onstad as the example for players who get constant abuses. My point was that some players are getting too many abuses and others are getting too many excuses because of past achievements.

As far as his character, I've read a lot of TFC fans mentionning that Julian looked disinterested in a lot of games this year, maybe PJ is referring to that. But I'm not sure where this line is coming from?

But why should a player have such strong opinions on leadership

Anyways, it's up to JDG to shut PJ mouth with some nice performances in TFC and Canada next games.

[Gordon]

Or Richard Hastings. Or Andrea Lombardo. Or Paul Stalteri. Or Geoff Aunger. Or any number of other players that might spring to mind over the years. We haven't seen much of it in recent times because its been over 2 years since we've seen something really disappointing from our national team, but usually the fans on this forum can be amongst the most harsh and brutal critics. Even then it's not always when something disappointing happens - when I first got on this board people wanted to have Stalteri executed for his play in the Gold Cup - the Gold Cup that we actually won!

Fans can be some of the harshest critics and biggest defenders of the team they support, the band they follow, the tv show they watch, etc. Its what fans do, its the passion that makes them fans to begin with. This has to be kept in mind when someone in the media simply implies that all fans do is coddle and try to protect the players (something James has intimated or said a number of times). I don't see all that much in the way of people defending De Guzman's play in this thread or claiming that he's been a great DP signing - most people are annoyed with the unsubstantiated personal attacks on his character. If there are "statements" he made that "obviously" show his poor character, produce them, or don't make the claim in the first place. Especially if you are writing for the Globe and Mail. Otherwise this will come across exactly as it has - something reeking of an agenda.

Agree with this wholeheartedly. There have been many whipping boys, often unfairly, at various times. The bottom line is that there is no general agreement about anything on this board. There is a tendency to lose sight of that and toss out blanket statements.

As for PJ, my impression was that one of his weakness as a coach at U-20 was man management and it appears to carry over to his journalism. He needs to spend a little less time ascribing motives and wallowing in the belief his own personal sensibilites are the only legitimate ones a player can have. As you say G-L, if he has evidence of 'statements' he should rpesent them, or hush up.

I do wonder of his shots at the Voygeurs are based on irritation at the constant references to Merlion Cup entanglements that appear on this board?

[Moldy9]

Is it just me or does anyone else think JDG is not performing to the level that he should be playing. JDG was a man on fire at the 07 GC, absolutely brilliant, and that was the kind of player I was expecting to see bring it to Toronto yet in the few games I've seen him play I've seen on many times him giving up possession with inaccurate passes or balls that end up in empty spaces as there was nobody making a run.

[youllneverwalkalone]

^That's a very interesting question Gordon. I'm not sure that there are "constant" references to the Merlion Cup. I think many of our younger posters feel that James is a wanker on his own recent merits and may not be aware that he took a bribe to throw a match only to change his mind and snitch out 4 the players who approached him -well after the fact. Clearly he's an expert on the topic of "character." What kind of sportsman would accept a few grand to turn his back on his country? The fact he changed his mind is irrelevant. And he has the audacity to question Julian De Guzman's character?

[nolando]

^ standing ovation (followed by an impromptu Mexican wave)

[jloome]

Again, it depends upon what Julian agreed to when he joined the club. If he thought he was going to play as a recessed holding midfielder, patrolling in front of the backline, that's just not the kind of system Preki uses.

He had problems throughout his career when asked to play two ways. It was only as a holder that he shone; it's hard to blame a player who's being used incorrectly, although I concede he does seem to take Preki's approach too personally, and perhaps Mista does, too.

But when I agree with the players/critics -- because I think two-way ball chasing is both ineffective and boring -- that's being too easy on the player?

Nah, I'd agree he isn't living up to expectations. But I'd also agree people have too high an expectation; ditto on the national level with players like Hume, Friend, Simpson, Stalteri, all of whom are effectively good journeyman football players, nothing more or less.

I don't think he's dogging it, and to me that's the measure of whether a guy deserves criticism this early and often.

While I don't agree with everything PJ said in his reply I have to agree with one thing he said when he talks about fans overprotecting players.

I love this forum but if I had one criticism to make is the excuses we too often are making for every player that is underperforming, either with the MNT or at the club level.

How to explain Rob Friend poor scoring record with Canada? Not being used properly by a poor coach and not receiving good service!

How to explain Ali Gerba failure with TFC? Not given a fair chance and not used properly!

The same was being said about Iain Hume so-so performance with Canada or JDG with TFC.

Our players are going for a night out at Club Opera after a crucial loss in a WCQ and a few hours before leaving for an even more crucial WCQ in Mexico . Not our business, it's the players private life.

It's seems that our players are rarely responsible for their poor performances unless they are named Pat Onstad.

Yes, PJ is being hard on JDG but I can't say he is entirely wrong in his assessment of the player.

[jloome]

Actually, i think there was a mix of reactions to this. I can understand it's their private life, but it shows their commitment to the cause. The Hondurans in contrast were up early the next morning doing strength training at their hotel before flying home to kick Jamaica's ass. If you want to make it to the WC you have to be 100% focused at all times.

This kind of unprofessional horse**** is what led to the rift between Osieck and the Watson/Bircham camp, if I recall. There was a story about staying out late in Japan at the confed cup, despite him having already warned them. Somebody here is bound to have a more accurate memory of this than I.....

[Grizzly]

Our players are going for a night out at Club Opera after a crucial loss in a WCQ and a few hours before leaving for an even more crucial WCQ in Mexico . Not our business, it's the players private life.

To be fair though, the only player who we know was at Club Opera was Julian, noone else was in the pictures so we can't really criticize them unless we have proof that they were there. In Julian's case while anyone who has met him can attest he is a super nice guy, it does suggest that there may be problems with his attitude and professionalism. However, there is certainly an awful lot of the usual PJ crap, agendas and chip on shoulders in this article. Also why is he always making veiled negative references to us in articles that have nothing to do with us? If he thinks JDG is playing poorly and has a bad attitude he should write about that not take pot shots at every person, group or profession he is pissed off about or start talking about the woes of the modern soccer industry.

[Cheeta]

Actually, i think there was a mix of reactions to this. I can understand it's their private life, but it shows their commitment to the cause. The Hondurans in contrast were up early the next morning doing strength training at their hotel before flying home to kick Jamaica's ass. If you want to make it to the WC you have to be 100% focused at all times.

And the Canadians weren't? And if they weren't that's because The Guz was clubbing the night before or was it because Mitch said so?

Pick 20 managers, any 20 managers who've brought their respective sides to the World Cup Finals and I'll show you 20 different programs used by those managers to keep the players fit, focused and relaxed. The lads are no damned good to you if they're strung tighter than a bow string.

I pretty confident you'll find a pretty damn wide range of techniques. From boot-camp to bar counter, and often within the same program.

As a stand alone example of the commitment show by the various players in the squads mentioned The Guz (or whoever) doing a bit of clubbing after a match has no bearing on my opinion in the matter what-so-ever.

With regards to PJ, what do you say? In MLS will anybody but a proficient goal scorer ever be worth DP wages? Of course not. But that says way, way more about MLS than it does about the real footballing value of certain types of players.

But whatever. It is what it is but why sign a holding mid/destroyer as a DP? Lots of reasons, but if those reasons don't fit your criteria but don't bad mouth The Guz for being what everyone knows he is and will be when he was signed. Bad mouth Trader Mo.

[Grizzly]

^^ The key to your argument is that you are talking about managers who brought their respective sides to the World Cup Finals, ie. succeeded. I suspect the majority of them followed a more disciplined approach but yes there may be some exceptions to this. Nevertheless the key is both the coach and the players choosing the strategy that produces success both individually and as a team. If their chosen strategy does not succeed it will surely be criticized particularly when it is not seemingly the most correct one to take. JDG was seen as the key player of our WCQ and played very poorly and was also seen out clubbing after an important loss (and also after a pretty disappointing tie against Jamaica). If he had played well and the rest and the team had qualified we might understand a behaviour not generally considered the best approach for most top level athletes. He played poorly and we did not qualify while the team that did qualify in our stead was much more disciplined, professional and serious in its attitude so the criticism is legitimate.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The reason to sign JDG is to provide the key link in possession terms between the defence and midfield. That's what was missing in the NYRB game because run of the mill MLS level players like Saric and Nane can't provide that. It's a very difficult position to play well, which provides a contribution to the team that tends to be underrated by many fans. When there was only one DP per team (without making a trade for the second DP roster spot) it obviously made sense to go after the star goalscorer. Now there is scope for adding three relatively painlessly it makes sense to try to further strengthen the spine of the team. Hence why NYRB have just signed Rafael Marquez in addition to Angel and Henry. Beyond that there is also the question of needing to pay a premium to get quality Canadian content.

[jloome]

The reason to sign JDG is to provide the key link in possession terms between the defence and midfield. That's what was missing in the NYRB game because run of the mill MLS level players like Saric and Nane can't provide that. It's a very difficult position to play well, which provides a contribution to the team that tends to be underrated by many fans. When there was only one DP per team (without making a trade for the second DP roster spot) it obviously made sense to go after the star goalscorer. Now there is scope for adding three relatively painlessly it makes sense to try to further strengthen the spine of the team. Hence why NYRB have just signed Rafael Marquez in addition to Angel and Henry. Beyond that there is also the question of needing to pay a premium to get quality Canadian content.

It's totally underrated. Personally, I'm signing the team's first DP? I sign a guy who's going to challenge for the scoring title. But that's business, not tactics. He's a really good player, on a poor team, playing a very direct type of game where he's overwhelmed by defenders more often and more quickly than he was accustomed to in the European game. Some days he looks brilliant, some days he's one or two bad passes into 'poor.'

But that's a facet, to me, of him being a poor fit for this style of game. Nonetheless, because of both his linkup, his ability to read and cut off passing lanes and his vision, he's still an excellent player by MLS standards.

[closetboostie]

Pick 20 managers, any 20 managers who've brought their respective sides to the World Cup Finals and I'll show you 20 different programs used by those managers to keep the players fit, focused and relaxed. The lads are no damned good to you if they're strung tighter than a bow string.

I pretty confident you'll find a pretty damn wide range of techniques. From boot-camp to bar counter, and often within the same program.

As a stand alone example of the commitment show by the various players in the squads mentioned The Guz (or whoever) doing a bit of clubbing after a match has no bearing on my opinion in the matter what-so-ever.

.

I could not have said it better than how you did in your post. I agree with the whole thing but I quoted what I did simply because the team and players should be judged on their results. They are pros and they should know what they have to do to get themselves ready to play at top level. They did not deliver and they deserve criticism on that front and I think they have received it. Whether they went out after the game or the night before is not really the issue for me, nor should it be in the future.

[BearcatSA]

I guess I was using Onstad as the example for players who get constant abuses. My point was that some players are getting too many abuses and others are getting too many excuses because of past achievements.

Those are my feelings, as well. But it will always be that way.

[Ivan]

It's totally underrated. Personally, I'm signing the team's first DP? I sign a guy who's going to challenge for the scoring title. But that's business, not tactics. He's a really good player, on a poor team, playing a very direct type of game where he's overwhelmed by defenders more often and more quickly than he was accustomed to in the European game. Some days he looks brilliant, some days he's one or two bad passes into 'poor.'

But that's a facet, to me, of him being a poor fit for this style of game. Nonetheless, because of both his linkup, his ability to read and cut off passing lanes and his vision, he's still an excellent player by MLS standards.

I agree with both BBTB and Jeremy. I have never had a problem with the DeGuzman signing and would gladly do it again were I Mo. He plays a vital role on the team and is often the hardest worker. Has he done everything I thought he would? No, but I haven't been disappointed him either. He works hard and is a team leader. He makes his share of mistakes, but remember, every ball coming both ways generally goes through him.

[BearcatSA]

He makes his share of mistakes, but remember, every ball coming both ways generally goes through him.

As opposed to running exclusively through Sanyang, Saric, and Nane, which isn't a good thing.

[ag futbol]

As for PJ, my impression was that one of his weakness as a coach at U-20 was man management and it appears to carry over to his journalism. He needs to spend a little less time ascribing motives and wallowing in the belief his own personal sensibilites are the only legitimate ones a player can have. As you say G-L, if he has evidence of 'statements' he should rpesent them, or hush up.

Yes, this pretty much described PJ to a T. Pushed to explain himself he relies on the old, "because i'm a real soccer coach and you are below me". It was pretty clear at the point nobody wanted to put him on TV that he was a self-important, preachy, twit.

[Richard]

"self-important, preachy, twit"... sounds like some of the posters here ;-)