Turning Canadian Soccer Around - Paul James

[Free kick]

You do realize this is, for all intents and purposes, a college draft? No matter how good or bad NCAA soccer is, you would get these numbers...

Here is the crux of the matter. CIS has all these advantages (facility, infrastructure, player base, fan base, etc) in place and has for years... so the question isn't why can't they do it but rather why don't they do it? Have you ever tried approaching a university to get them to 'think outside the box' when it comes to sports? In the GTA at least, you'd be wasting your time...

And, no offence, but your NCAA women's program examples carry very little weight in this discussion. There are many other factors that contribute to the large investment made in the women's game in the US - not the least of which is the need to offset contribution to Men's football in order to comply with Title IX.

That's my sence as well. To anyone here ( and I am sure that there are many) who has attended a Canadian University, ask yourself how much of a role the soccer team played the school's or campus life? How many times was it mentioned in campus newspapers or in the Alumni newsletter? how often was it discussed amongst the student body? and how many people followed and supported the team?

In my case, granted its been now quite a while, the campus I attended was all about football. Thats all that administration ever talked about. Then maybe basketball. Soccer to the student body and the university is just another sport. No different than Volleyball, field hockey etc. No one attended the games and the male players who were in it had other primary interests in their careers. It is a bit different on the womens side.

So why would the CIS do anything for soccer that it wont do for other sports or why would it give any special attention to soccer? Maybe if the funding for sports in general was comparable to what you see in the US, you might be able to leverage something from CIS for soccer in Canada. You might see better coaches hired for example. But that is just not the case in Canada and its not going to change.

[Vic]

You're both bright guys and those are experienced and very valid views. I can echo the status of soccer on campus both here and down south. There is no way it will ever become a fan favourite, but I'm not sure how much that hinders it as a development pathway.

I actually agree with you both that a national network of dedicated multi-million dollar funded programs like soccer countries around the world have is the best option, I just don't believe we are within 50 years of the culture to either provide it as a national solution or supply a player pool willing to populate it on a life-decision career basis. I see the CIS as an "in the meantime and until we get there" low-hanging fruit.

Dino, if UofT hired you two years ago and gave you all the resources you wished for to hire, recruit and run the best 8-month program you could, I imagine you will disagree but I'm not sure you would come up with something that much different from what you're doing now.

[BearcatSA]

As Lino stated, the question isn't why can't they do it....rather it is why DON'T they do it. It is my opinion that they DON'T do it because, at least in Canada, a post secondary institute of higher learning exists to provide an education to its students. They are not incubators for want-to-be professional athletes on behalf of wealthy Pro sports clubs and personally, I don't want to see my tax dollars directed in that way. Pro sports leagues have been sucking on the teet of the tax payer by downloading the cost of player development onto colleges and universities (many of which are publicly funded), community sports clubs, etc... without ever contibuting a penny back.

Though I pointed out only this segment, I support your opinion given in the entire post

[ted]

Long tem, the only fit I see for our colleges and universities in the sport of soccer would involve those institutions affiliating with pro clubs so that those clubs can make use of the athletic facilities that the schools have invested in and in return, the pro club offers some sort of service in return to the school (i.e. providing coaches for their varsity team, jointly running summer camps, etc...)

I think you make excellent points and this summary of how uni/college programs should fit into the scheme makes a lot of sense to me.

[L.T.]

Unfortunately, in my experience most educational institutions would almost rather see their facilities remain empty rather that make an effort to enter into these types of partnerships. They see outside groups as a hassle rather than an opportunity.

[VPjr]

Unfortunately, in my experience most educational institutions would almost rather see their facilities remain empty rather that make an effort to enter into these types of partnerships. They see outside groups as a hassle rather than an opportunity.

Sadly, this is my experience as well, although that won't stop us from continuing to try to forge relationships with groups who have excellent facilities. It can be done (look at the relationship between the Toronto Argos and University of Toronto-Mississauga) but its the exception rather than the rule.

[VPjr]

I actually agree with you both that a national network of dedicated multi-million dollar funded programs like soccer countries around the world have is the best option, I just don't believe we are within 50 years of the culture to either provide it as a national solution or supply a player pool willing to populate it on a life-decision career basis. I see the CIS as an "in the meantime and until we get there" low-hanging fruit.

Dino, if UofT hired you two years ago and gave you all the resources you wished for to hire, recruit and run the best 8-month program you could, I imagine you will disagree but I'm not sure you would come up with something that much different from what you're doing now.

I dont believe we need multi million dollar clubs to create the network of professional clubs focused on the development of younger Canadian players. It can be done on a much more modest budget (although its faster and easier when you have big money behind you).

Not all top soccer countries have the benefit of wall to wall 1st class clubs. In fact, most of the small community based pro clubs in some of the hottest soccer countries exist and thrive on very slim budgets. We need to crawl before we walk, and walk before we run. I say we should start small. However, just because the clubs on the lower rung of the pro soccer ladder are small and may not be able to offer all the bells and whistles that the big clubs can, that doesn't mean they are not worthy of the soccer community's support.

I agree we are decades away from a soccer culture that will fully support a coast to coast CHL-style system that will exist to feed a strong, 1st class domestic (or continental) Tier 1 soccer circuit. We starterd Milltown FC knowing this full well. We want to be part of the group of people who start to lay the foundation for what will eventually be a much more dynamic soccer culture.

By the way, if my alma mater, which just happens to be UofT, came to me 2 years ago and said "we want to be in the professional soccer business", obviously I would have been inclined to listen and forward a proposal. However, if they asked me to create the best possible program to compete in CIS, even if it were an 8 month program, I'd still say no because I'm only interested in being involved in the professional side of the sport. Canadian soccer doesn't need more amateur programs. The amateur side of the sport is already very well served. We need more professionalism, even if it starts as semi-pro and evolves and grows into something bigger and better.

[Vic]

Aye but there's the rub. It's not just that they have better facilities than most private-sector programs, it's the player fees too. If you are attending TWU and receiving a $20k per year education, or if you are somewhere else and receiving a mix of academic/athletic/employment funding worth $10-15K, would you consider yourself an amateur or professional? How many of your players are you paying $10-$20,000 a year?

As I said in an earlier post a while back, the lines of amateur and professional were ruined by the Russians, the Chinese and the Americans long ago. The words basically represent sporting ideals and not physical states.

And great thread by the way, thanks to everyone.

[Free kick]

There is no way it will ever become a fan favourite, but I'm not sure how much that hinders it as a development pathway.

But development requires money.

Money to hire good coaches, asisstant coaches, pay staff, improve pitches, travel to important tournaments and matches, improve training facilities, training equipment, recruiting, evaluating and assessing talent, dessimating information on talent ..etc

How do you make money? answer: through strong support in the stands from the student body which improves the the visibility of the program and idealy attracts local businesses and gets the attention of the school's administration and gives it higheer priority. Many CIS football programs have strong community business support.

Hence,no support equals no money which equals no meaningful development.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

As I said in an earlier post a while back, the lines of amateur and professional were ruined by the Russians, the Chinese and the Americans long ago. The words basically represent sporting ideals and not physical states.

Pretty much sums it up. Combine an athletics scholarship with PDL and you have a soccer player being paid a sizable amount of money in a manner which at times will facilitate close to a full-time pro level of training even if on paper they are amateur. You also have somebody being trained to do something else if soccer doesn't lead anywhere lucrative and in most cases it won't. No need for that to be the only path to a pro contract in MLS or even the main one but the CIS does potentially have something to offer. Playing for Berkeley and the San Jose Frogs doesn't seem to have done Stefan Frei any harm.

[VPjr]

Aye but there's the rub. It's not just that they have better facilities than most private-sector programs, it's the player fees too. If you are attending TWU and receiving a $20k per year education, or if you are somewhere else and receiving a mix of academic/athletic/employment funding worth $10-15K, would you consider yourself an amateur or professional? How many of your players are you paying $10-$20,000 a year?

As I said in an earlier post a while back, the lines of amateur and professional were ruined by the Russians, the Chinese and the Americans long ago. The words basically represent sporting ideals and not physical states.

And great thread by the way, thanks to everyone.

Based on the information I have at my disposal, there are no scholarships available to soccer players in Ontario that equal $20K per year. If TWU is doing it, good for them but they are the exception to the rule. Few OUA schools are handing out scholarship packages at all for soccer and those that do (York being a case in point) tend to hand out packages that are in the $3-4K range. The biggere issue is tha the quality of competition is simply not good enough. The best players are not in school. If we want to create a top notch soccer development program, all the best players have to be in the same league (or as many as possible) and not segregated based on whether someeone is booksmart or not.

I know a few boys in the US who are legitimately on a full ride but I know far more how are down there getting an education of questionable quality and payuing $5k-$10k per year for the privilege. Full Rides for Canadian male soccer players is again the exception rather than the rule. So, if I am paying several thousand dollars annuallly to play for my school, I would call that amateur.

We may not be paying our players big money but they are getting a soccer experience that they would be hard pressed to find at any college or university. They get to be involved in a truly professional environment, coached by some of the top professionals we have in this country, play consistently high level games, and be properly groomed for a career at the next level of pro soccer (not everyone will accomplish that goal...in fact, only a few will, but they will all be groomed to be able to make that leap if they have the ability and good fortune needed).

When I speak about amateurism, i don't mean the sporting ideal....I agree....that was ruined long ago. When i use that word, I am refering to an attitude that is far too common in Canadian soccer. I have the benefit of working with people who are the opposite of amateur so the contrast is stark. To be professional and to be able to develop professionals properly, you must be committed to an uncomprimising set of standards because being "good enough" simply isn't good enough. There are no shortcuts to success. Advocating for post secondary institutions to be part of the professional development pyramid for soccer is a perfect example of opting for the easier route that will ultimately get us no closer to being a strong soccer nation, as opposed to fighting to build the correct system that will deliver results over the medium to long term.

[VPjr]

Playing for Berkeley and the San Jose Frogs doesn't seem to have done Stefan Frei any harm.

Playing in the CSL didn't hurt Atiba Hutchison either.

Just remember, National Team coaches on both sides of the border are all sounding the same alarm ("college soccer is not a proper system for elite player development"). That system will always have a purpose but is not the long term answer. There is a reason why the USSF is putting a log of effort into developing a strong tier 2 pro league in th US....they know that the top young players need to be coming up through a more comprehensive and professional program than what college soccer offers.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

.....To be professional and to be able to develop professionals properly, you must be committed to an uncomprimising set of standards because being "good enough" simply isn't good enough......

Perhaps worth noting that your definition of professional does not revolve around whether players are actually being paid but is related to the approach to the game. Any particular reason why a PDL team can't have an uncompromising set of standards as well?

Not sure why you think Atiba Hutchison having played in the CSL contradicts what I wrote given this was also part of my post:-

No need for that to be the only path to a pro contract in MLS or even the main one but the CIS does potentially have something to offer.

As the number of full-time pro teams increases over the next decade or so most of the players with a shot at making it onto an MLS or NASL (hopefully) senior roster will have been identified by 14 or 15 and will be in the academy/residency programs of those MLS and NASL franchises. The CIS/NCAA/PDL sort of route will probably still help to identify a few late developers even after the academy systems get up to full speed. An NCAA scholarship didn't prevent Davie Weir from captaining Rangers to an SPL championship in Scotland last season, for example:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Weir_%28Scottish_footballer%29

Not sure where clubs like Milltown will fit into the equation in development terms. In a UK context what tends to happen nowadays is that the greater than 90% of academy players who are discarded by the top pro teams eventually wind up playing for smaller clubs displacing many/most of the players who came up through the youth systems of the smaller clubs with relatively few players moving in the opposite direction especially since the onset of the huge influx of players from all around the world into the Premiership, Championship and SPL. Given the way MLS recruits from overseas much the same could happen in a Canadian context.

[VPjr]

Perhaps worth noting that your definition of professional does not revolve around whether players are actually being paid but is related to the approach to the game. Any particular reason why a PDL team can't have an uncompromising set of standards as well?

The PDL is a nice little summer league for college players to keep fit, but, by its very nature, it is a league that is full of compromises that works agains proper development.

#1....season is too short

#2.....too many games in too short a period of time

#3....the compressed schedule leaves too little time for proper training because so much time is spent on travel or recovery sessions.

Some PDL programs are better than others but, at the end of the day, they are essentially just hosting clubs for players and have almost no vested interest in development (except, of course, those few PDL sides that are actually attached to a full pro club). The goal of a PDL team is, generally, to win its division, which is fine. They have the potential to offere good soccer entertainment, which is great, but you are fooling yourself if you think alot of development is happening there. A player from a US college gets more development time at their school and we've already discussed how that system is not delivering enough training time.

You are also incorrect to assume that 3 MLS clubs and a handful of NASL clubs will ever identify all the top talent available. I have no fear that we'll always be able to get our hands on excellent talent. There are too many good players. You just need to know where to look and what to do with those players once you've signed them.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Hate to break this to you but the CSL's May to September regular season is way too short by international standards as well. Lower mainland BC has a major advantage in player development terms by being able to play outdoors all year round.

In any given season TFC Academy are probably going to have 20 or so players in any particular two year age cohort. Given most people can keep playing to about 32 or 33 that's the equivalent of between 100 and 150 over the span of a typical playing career. Complete overkill when it comes to filling the 5 to 10 players domestic content on an MLS roster at any given moment in time in other words so the other 95% or so can be expected to populate a large portion of the CSL rosters as well. Factor in an academy side of a Hamilton NASL team and that number potentially doubles to 200 to 300...

[VPjr]

^we're actually May to October and pre-season starts in March-April. That is a 7 month season but I would agree that is still a bit too short. However, clubs are putting plans in place to extend how long we are able to work with our players, especially the younger ones.

As for your academy argument, your numbers have validity and if those players who dont graduate to a professional contract opt to continue playing locally at a good level, that will definitely stand to benefit the overall player pool for the CSL over time but, as I said before, TFC isn't the only game in town and/or they will make errors in player identification so teams that are out there scouting will still have the opportunity to pick up some good players before they do, especially if the identification/recruitment process begins young.

[Vic]

Back to the matter at hand - the CIS. My general comment is that it is the only national men's and women's league we have, the institutions all have incredible facilities and resources, we're talking about applying a little time, energy and money to upgrade the standard and people are itsnaying it because it's not philosophically pure. The truth is probably more like if no one works with the schools to improve things and divert resources to it they will end up in other sports, land grabs, professor sabbaticals or wine and cheese parties. I understand, appreciate and support the benefit and long-term gain of regional development leagues and private enterprises. But taking steps to upgrade the CIS standard is a no-brainer.

[Alex D]

My quibble with relying on the CIS or NCCA is that they don't get their players until they are 18 years of age. By that point over half of a players development should be completed, and if it was insufficient, then a player will never reach their full potential. Universities may have great facilities, but you will never see York U with a U12 team.

This is the direction the CSL is heading. Not sure how this has fallen through the cracks, but it seems the CSL is looking a youth leagues down to the U10 level http://italiashooters.ca/news2.php?news_id=279758 This is exactly what we need in this country. Players coming into a club at a young age, then receiving consistent, high quality training with the focus on skill development rather than winning a U11 tournament.

[jpg75]

^ That's great news, i hope all the clubs get on board with that. I know that the SWE have already had an affiliation with Toronto Falcons to field teams as young as U14 the past few years and Portugal FC (i think) have some affiliation with a club from the NW GTA (Dixie?).

[red card]

an article from the washington post stating NCAA is losing its grip on USMNT

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/20/AR2010072003679.html

Four of the 23 players on the U.S. soccer team that captivated the nation's attention last month at the World Cup played four years of college soccer, and as the United States attempts to cultivate world-class players by adopting a model of development popular in other countries -- with professional affiliations starting before a player reaches voting age -- college soccer players soon could be left out of the national team equation altogether.

"If you look at it from a purely objective standpoint, [college soccer is] not an ideal soccer development for a critical stage of a player's development between ages 17 and 21," said Thomas Rongen, the coach of the U.S. under-20 national team.

Rongen said there are exceptions, such as American players who go abroad at an early age and cannot handle the rigorous environment of professional soccer. But he believes college soccer will draw fewer elite players each passing year because its structure is not conducive to improvement on an elite level. Virginia Coach George Gelnovatch, who led the Cavaliers to a national title last season, said there would always be players who are late bloomers or need a college environment to mature. He believes that the bulk of a player's technical development occurs between ages 6 and 16 -- even before they reach college.

Without a developmental system that includes residencies tied into professional teams, he said the United States needs college soccer to refine players who are not immediately identified as top prospects.

"Can you imagine trying to take college soccer out, what the heck would happen?" Gelnovatch said. "There's not a system in place for the kid who slipped through the cracks. What would they do? The perfect solution is like it as around the world, with youth systems in place. By 18, 19, you're either going to be a pro or you're not. Right now, it's very, very important. Whether it's going to be 15, 20 years from now, that depends on Major League Soccer."

Maryland Coach Sasho Cirovski points to former Terrapins standout Maurice Edu, a member of this year's U.S. World Cup team, as an example of an unheralded player in his youth who needed college soccer to flourish. Cirovski said the top players from the United States will have the opportunity to go professional immediately -- "and there's nothing wrong with that," he added -- but that college sports are an important part of American society.

"Even for our best players, one year of college soccer will not hurt them," Cirovski said. "We saw that even two or three years of college soccer for our elite players could still be beneficial for a number of factors," such as physical and mental development.

Cirovski wants the NCAA, U.S. Soccer and MLS to work together. Like other coaches, Cirovski thinks college soccer players need more practice time in the offseason. He also wants opportunities for the elite college players to either play or train with MLS reserve teams or to create a summer league featuring the nation's top college players.

"There's some NCAA rules and funding issues," Cirovski said, "but that's critically important for the cream of our college players to further their development."

Cirovski does not believe the United States needs a system like other countries, but that it just needs to refine its current system. He cited basketball as an example of how attending college does not hinder an elite player's progress.

"If LeBron James would have gone to Ohio State to play basketball, I don't think he'd be a terrible player right now," he said.

Akron Coach Caleb Porter, a former MLS player, said that college soccer's resources, facilities and coaching make the setting ideal for development -- if the NCAA would allow the coaches to further work with the players.

"The problem is, right now, they're not going to get that development anywhere else in our country," Porter said. "College soccer is where they have to develop. If they go to a program that can develop them, and looks at development and prioritizes that, then they do get development and we see it year after year."

MLS and U.S. Soccer partner for Generation Adidas, a program that identifies the nation's top young players and provides incentives for them to become a professional player more quickly, promising higher salaries and guaranteeing a college scholarship if a professional career doesn't pan out initially.

Only six of the 18 players on Rongen's under-20 roster for next week's Milk Cup tournament in Northern Ireland play college soccer, but it discourages Rongen that the majority of the players in the United States' residency program, which is for high school-age players, are still preparing for college soccer. Even the top college coaches agree that American soccer's future success will be determined by whether a compromise can be found with professional soccer that allows for the development of all players, even the ones who choose to play college soccer.

"If we can do that," Rongen said, "then we're starting to really develop players basically just like the rest of the world."

"I think that number is going to dwindle more and more," Rongen said. "I don't care what college coaches say. You cannot replicate a professional environment. There's too much down time, there's not enough games. And if there are games during the season, there are too many of them in a short amount of time, which means most teams pretty much have starters end up recuperating between games and not training."

[VPjr]

Back to the matter at hand - the CIS. My general comment is that it is the only national men's and women's league we have, the institutions all have incredible facilities and resources, we're talking about applying a little time, energy and money to upgrade the standard and people are itsnaying it because it's not philosophically pure. The truth is probably more like if no one works with the schools to improve things and divert resources to it they will end up in other sports, land grabs, professor sabbaticals or wine and cheese parties. I understand, appreciate and support the benefit and long-term gain of regional development leagues and private enterprises. But taking steps to upgrade the CIS standard is a no-brainer.

Vic, I respect your point of view but I'm not sure there are many people in either the University community (outside of coaches already employed) or within the soccer community at large who are enthusiastic about investing already limited resources in this way. You might consider upgrading CIS soccer a no-brainer but I feel pretty comfortable stating that there is almost no appetite for that among the people who would be in a position to make those decisions and allocate the dollars needed for that type of experiment. Unless the schools are prepared to foot all the costs themselves to radically alter the university/college soccer landscape, it's not going to happen. The current status quo will continue (where a few schools care and invest and the rest won't even allocate the money needed for a full time coach).

From what I'm hearing, the USSF is currently getting ready to meet with a variety of different stakeholders in the professional soccer community to seek out alternatives for their best young talent as well, rather than see them go the NCAA route. At the elite level, the Americans are starting to clearly see the limitations of the college soccer system for the best of the best and are going to start working with MLS, USL and NASL to try and develop a better model.

[Vic]

Ironically I was just posting in another thread that no one gives a damn about women's soccer. Women and girls provide half the player pool and funding in this country, are 10th ranked and not 100th, and no one ever gives them a single ounce of respect or even considers them or their situation when thinking or making decisions.

I've never been more certain the best thing that could happen to women's soccer in Canada would be for the CSA to split off all of women's and girls soccer into it's own organization and let them fund and manage themselves. That is the missing link to greatness.

[Cheeta]

^ Oh, not so sure about that. The splinting part that is. 10th ranked, 100th ranked, for the life of me I just can't see the women's program competing with the men's program for meaningful private sponsorship dollars.

That being said, I also believe the women's program could prosper with much less money than it would take for the men's program so who knows? Might be worth a try since the scale would be variable for each program. All it takes is one committed sponsor. With a bit of luck the CSA might find, and convince the right body to marry itself to the women's program.

Will suggest however, that there is a huge casual appetite for women's footie in Canada. A decade of huge participation numbers by women in soccer has not left some residual influences and opportunities.

[CoachRich]

I agree with Vic. IMO the CIS is probably the best place to start to try to draw Canada even with the USA at the youth to college levels. It's not ideal but the US has made it pay in both their NT programs.

Until Canada can afford to have a better CIS and/or pro clubs, we will still be sending players outside of the country. The Euro system would be the best but we don't have a domestic league nor pro clubs that can afford it. The only good example of a Euro sports system in Canada is the hockey development model. Here the Kids get into the Canadian system earlier than soccer, move away from home into billets, go to school and etc.

The Washington Post article above proves once again the USSF and it's community are forward looking. What is Canada doing other than sending our best out of the country? Nothing of course.

Btw the CSL is not the center of soccer in Canada. Further what money do they have to be able to compete against the Euro and US system that a lot of our best players go to for development.

"A decade of huge participation numbers by women in soccer has not left some residual influences and opportunities." You need to ask the CSA on that one. Christine Sinclair's response might be something like "The men's team is not at the Olympics," she said. "It's a shame to hear men's players saying that when they are no where." Been discussed for many years that the WP pays it's own way based upon their performance based funding from Sports Canada and the IOC. Do they get what the MP get on top of that has always been the big question?

[Gordon]

As the number of full-time pro teams increases over the next decade or so most of the players with a shot at making it onto an MLS or NASL (hopefully) senior roster will have been identified by 14 or 15 and will be in the academy/residency programs of those MLS and NASL franchises. The CIS/NCAA/PDL sort of route will probably still help to identify a few late developers even after the academy systems get up to full speed. An NCAA scholarship didn't prevent Davie Weir from captaining Rangers to an SPL championship in Scotland last season, for example:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Weir_%28Scottish_footballer%29

Not sure where clubs like Milltown will fit into the equation in development terms. In a UK context what tends to happen nowadays is that the greater than 90% of academy players who are discarded by the top pro teams eventually wind up playing for smaller clubs displacing many/most of the players who came up through the youth systems of the smaller clubs with relatively few players moving in the opposite direction especially since the onset of the huge influx of players from all around the world into the Premiership, Championship and SPL. Given the way MLS recruits from overseas much the same could happen in a Canadian context.

Until we have several dozen pro clubs spread out accross every region there I don;t think it is likely that "most" players with pro level potential will be identified by 14 or 15. It does not work that way in any mature sport anywhere in the world, including soccer, and I doubt we in Canada are going to find the magic formula for soccer when we haven't yet for hockey. It is more likely to work that way now in Canada because the dearth of opportunity means those selected for academies have a huge leg up on those not.

Your comments about the number of academy player who won't make it are on the money, however I do not see that as a negative for player development at smaller amateur or professional clubs like Milltown. The effect I see is a general upgrading of the level competition generally. Excellent coaching and training has to be augmented by higher levels of competition. So I see it as actually enhancing player development at smaller clubs.