Two Brantford Galaxy (CSL) players training with TFC

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Of course, you would need to actually watch CSL soccer to know that but I think its been a while since you've done so.

I have watched CSL games over the past two seasons and have been surprised by how low the standard is given the GTA has over 5 million people with a very large portion of them being from recent immigrant backgrounds from soccer loving countries. Don't find it surprising that a U-18 team and three new franchises would be making up four of the top five right now. Toronto should still be able to sustain a league approaching the quality in the NSL of 1970s and 80s. It took gross incompetence and mismanagement to reduce things to the current state of affairs.

[hamiltonfan]

I couldnt catch the game, saw from the game in six on tfctv that there were a handful of TFCA and CSL players called up. How'd they do?

[VPjr]

I have watched CSL games over the past two seasons and have been surprised by how low the standard is given the GTA has over 5 million people with a very large portion of them being from recent immigrant backgrounds from soccer loving countries. Don't find it surprising that a U-18 team and three new franchises would be making up four of the top five right now. Toronto should still be able to sustain a league approaching the quality in the NSL of 1970s and 80s. It took gross incompetence and mismanagement to reduce things to the current state of affairs.

Well, from what I could tell, those low standard CSL players held their own quite nicely with a squad from the Premiership on Wednesday night.

Clearly you havent watched much if any CSL this year because the standard of play I've witnessed this season, up close, has been been very good. I don't know how many people who tell me that they find the quality of soccer in the CSL more entertaining that the typical TFC match.

I do agree that the GTA has the population based for the CSL to be even stronger than it already is but the current state of affairs is not so dire. good things are happening and it will only get better.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

As indicated previously I have watched the CSL this season. No more followups from me on that particular subject. Worth noting that the players who did well against Bolton tended to be either top GTA U-18 players who are only playing in the CSL because of the arrival of TFC and are keeping their options open where the NCAA is concerned or import players from the former Yugoslavia. These were not players that were developed by long term CSL franchises like the North York Astros or Brampton Lions. It would have been great to see a steady line of recruits from those clubs to TFC over the last four seasons but it hasn't happened. It's more palatable for some to point an accusing finger at Mo Johnston than to contemplate the possibility that Toronto's local soccer scene had almost nothing to offer in that regard.

[TFCRegina]

Well, from what I could tell, those low standard CSL players held their own quite nicely with a squad from the Premiership on Wednesday night.

Clearly you havent watched much if any CSL this year because the standard of play I've witnessed this season, up close, has been been very good. I don't know how many people who tell me that they find the quality of soccer in the CSL more entertaining that the typical TFC match.

I do agree that the GTA has the population based for the CSL to be even stronger than it already is but the current state of affairs is not so dire. good things are happening and it will only get better.

Those CSLers looked better than the First team.

[VPjr]

As indicated previously I have watched the CSL this season. No more followups from me on that particular subject. Worth noting that the players who did well against Bolton tended to be either top GTA U-18 players who are only playing in the CSL because of the arrival of TFC and are keeping their options open where the NCAA is concerned or import players from the former Yugoslavia. These were not players that were developed by long term CSL franchises like the North York Astros or Brampton Lions. It would have been great to see a steady line of recruits from those clubs to TFC over the last four seasons but it hasn't happened. It's more palatable for some to point an accusing finger at Mo Johnston than to contemplate the possibility that Toronto's local soccer scene had almost nothing to offer in that regard.

the fact of the matter is that a Premiership side was outplayed (or at worst played evenly) by a group of players who play in Canada's only professional soccer league. That is a great advertisement for the quality of the CSL. We have excellent soccer players in this league and, depsite your views, we offer up a very entertaining brand of soccer. Last night was just a glimpse

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Whatever I write you are going to keep trotting out the Pravda line on this but I suspect some people will conclude that you are taking what was a relatively early preseason game for Bolton a bit too seriously and will notice that you didn't actually address the key points I made in the text you quoted.

[jpg75]

I don't see how you can dismiss the talent of the TFCA players when gauging the quality of the CSL's top players. TFCA plays in the CSL so those players have to be taken into account.

Also, if you think a 3rd division league is going to provide a "steady stream" of players to a 1st division team with a limited number of roster spots (18-20 + 4) you're going to be disappointed.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I didn't dismiss the talent of the TFCA players. I pointed out that their development was the work of an MLS team rather than one of the long term CSL franchises and that very few of those players would have been in the CPSL/CSL prior to the arrival of TFC because of the NCAA eligibility issue. In the 1970s the NSL provided a steady stream of players to the NASL and Canadian soccer made a disproportionate contribution to the domestic content across the league. Since then the local Toronto soccer scene has been very much eclipsed by the NCAA/PDL as a pathway to the pros in North American terms.

[VPjr]

Since then the local Toronto soccer scene has been very much eclipsed by the NCAA/PDL as a pathway to the pros in North American terms.

Not for Canadian players. The number of Canadians who have translated NCAA/PDL to a pro career is still very small. The vast majoirty of our current professional player pool has bypassed the US college system and that reality is not going to change.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Again this does not really address what I actually wrote given I wrote "pathway to the pros in North American terms". In the 1970s and 80s Canadian soccer was producing better players than American soccer was, in large measure due to the strength of leagues like the NSL (worth bearing in mind that local soccer scenes in Montreal and Vancouver played a role as well). In 2010 that is no longer the case and the NCAA/PDL system is churning out players for MLS to a much greater extent than the local semi-pro leagues are north and south of the border. This has led to a massive gap between the Canadian and US national teams that never used to exist and a Canadian MLS entry having to rely very heavily on American players to be competitive (unless of course you choose to use Mo Johnston as a scapegoat rather than facing the unpalatable reality of the situation).

CSL teams are not a major factor in the development of pro players these days (no need to point to the exceptions because my inclusion of the word "major" leaves room for them). None of the "CSL players" who played well against Bolton are the product of a conventional CSL franchise. TFC's investment in an academy system and various clubs in the former Yugoslavia were instead responsible for that. The CSL should be able to do more than it is right now but there is a massive rebuilding job required to get it back to the level the NSL used to be at and it's highly questionable whether the CSL as currently constituted actually represents the best possible setup for getting there. Something similar to the top state leagues in Melbourne and Sydney in Australia where there is promotion and relegation rather than a franchise system would help keep things cut throat and competitive by weeding out the weaker "franchises" and replacing them over time with actual soccer clubs (controlled by a broad membership and with a complete structure of teams from U-10 up through to the senior team) that people are more likely to identify with and actually want to pay to watch.

[jpg75]

You seem to have taken a tangent somewhere. You're the only one talking about player development in the CSL in a historical context, and the role of the league as a development tool for Canadian soccer relative to the NCAA/PDL for US Soccer. That's fine and dandy, but i thought the point of contention was whether there were some players in the CSL capable of playing at an MLS level - regardless of the team they play on and where they developed.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

If you have nothing intelligent to add on what I have actually written there is really no need to reply.

[BugerKing]

To go back to the focus of this thread, all the trailists who player on Wednesday are reportedly still training with the team. Maybe will see a player break through?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Easy enough to add two Academy players as there is scope for that under the new CBA but with Mista's arrival adding the likes of Medic and Vukovic would require the departure of senior roster players whether by being waived, traded, placed on the season ending injury list etc. I guess the main issue on the Academy players would be whether they are close enough to getting playing time in MLS that it is better for their development to sign a pro contract in MLS rather than playing at a significantly lower level in the CSL.

[BugerKing]

I'm wondering about placing Gomez on season ending injury, I've read he's recently had another set back. I'd like to see them add Medic. I've seen him play with SWE a few times and know he's played in Europe too. I think he'd be a decent squad player, though looking decent in one friendly to playing regular MLS games is a big step. I know he was with the team in Florida earlier in the season too.

I often wonder if there's a benefit for players just to train with the team? Maybe TFC reaches out to local players when they're short on numbers? I read about CSL player training / trialing with the team all the time, yet nothing ever seems to come of it.

I agree with the last point you made about the academy players. Let's say they sign Henry, if I understand the rules, he can't play with the academy anymore to protect the other players' NCAA eligibility and it's not like he's going to be starting. CB isn't really position you want to sub people in and out off late in games unless it's a blowout. So he sits on the bench. He can train with the team, but sounds like he's already doing that with some frequency. There needs to be something between the u18s and the senior team, ideally a reserve league again.

[L.T.]

Actually, with the new NCAA rules, there is nothing to stop TFC from signing Henry and keeping him in the Academy. As long as NCAA-bound players have not yet begun school, they can suit up along side pros - this is why the academy players were able to play in the friendlies.

Since TFC academy drops players when they turn 18, they don't have to worry about the eligibility of returning NCAA players, because they won't have any.

[jpg75]

If you have nothing intelligent to add on what I have actually written there is really no need to reply.

Typical idiotic behavour that we've come to expect from you. Here's a refresher:

I can tell you with 100% certainty that those two players from Galaxy are quality players and I think would fit nicely on a TFC roster, as would a whole host of CSL players.

That's Dino's post and it falls in the realm of this thread, 2 Brantford players trialing with TFC and Dino believing there are a number of others in the league that could play at an MLS level.

Here's your reply:

Having TFC's U-18 team two points out of first place with half the season gone casts some doubt on the "whole host" bit. A huge portion of the best players are lost to the sport in their late teens. Hopefully the whole culture of continuing to play soccer at a semi-pro level into your 20s and 30s will build again to the point that the CSL will be more like the NSL was back in the 70s and 80s but that's going to take a decade or two to unfold. A new entry like your Milltown FC team would have found it much harder to make headway in their first season when Toronto Italia and Croatia were at their peak of popularity.

A mish-mash of flimsy arguments that really don't apply to the thread at hand. Sure, it's a good analysis of what plagues the CSL in terms of developing homegrown talent, but it does nothing to counter an argument that there might be a dozen or so quality players (regardless or origin or background) playing in the league that would warrant a shot with TFC.

[VPjr]

Easy enough to add two Academy players as there is scope for that under the new CBA ... I guess the main issue on the Academy players would be whether they are close enough to getting playing time in MLS

I would be very surprised if TFC doesnt promote at least 1 Academy player from the current crop. At some point, they need to pull the trigger and this is likely the best crop of players they've ever had in the program, although there were players in the program previously that were also very good and didn't get the callup. I think there is a certain amount of pressure on TFC to show the soccer community that the Academy is truly a pathway to MLS soccer, the way the Impact and the whitecaps have shown that their development programs can indeed result in a pro contract. Of course, MLS rules make it more complicated so I understand to some degree why they have been hesitant to bring someone up.

[VPjr]

Actually, with the new NCAA rules, there is nothing to stop TFC from signing Henry and keeping him in the Academy. As long as NCAA-bound players have not yet begun school, they can suit up along side pros - this is why the academy players were able to play in the friendlies.

In addition, it was my understanding that TFC has sent a clear message to players and parents that the Academy is not an NCAA training program. It is what it is....a development program that is supposed to graduate players to the 1st team. Thus, if a player is/was concerned about retaining their NCAA eligibility, they really don't belong at TFC Academy. I applaud TFC for taking that stance.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Typical idiotic behavour that we've come to expect from you.

In reality you jumped into a debate between two other people without even bothering to read what had been written. You could apologize for misrepresenting my argument as a consequence of that but that's not your style. You are now on my ignore list and I've said all I have to say on that particular issue.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

In addition, it was my understanding that TFC has sent a clear message to players and parents that the Academy is not an NCAA training program. It is what it is....a development program that is supposed to graduate players to the 1st team. Thus, if a player is/was concerned about retaining their NCAA eligibility, they really don't belong at TFC Academy. I applaud TFC for taking that stance.

Although they have stated that as being the primary goal to the parents they have still made sure that NCAA eligibility is retained by the players even though it means that they don't have the players under pro level contracts and won't get a transfer fee if a big European club comes in and signs them one of them. As things stand if Bolton decided they wanted Doneil Henry on the strength of his performance against them he'd be free to go there once he turns 18.

[jpg75]

In reality you jumped into a debate between two other people without even bothering to read what had been written. You could apologize for misrepresenting my argument as a consequence of that but that's not your style. You are now on my ignore list and I've said all I have to say on that particular issue.

This is an open forum and anyone can post an opinion, choose to ignore my posts but it doesn't make them any less right. I am not misrepresenting your argument, your false logic is evident for anyone that cares to examine the debate.

Anyways...

[Macksam]

Again this does not really address what I actually wrote given I wrote "pathway to the pros in North American terms". In the 1970s and 80s Canadian soccer was producing better players than American soccer was, in large measure due to the strength of leagues like the NSL (worth bearing in mind that local soccer scenes in Montreal and Vancouver played a role as well). In 2010 that is no longer the case and the NCAA/PDL system is churning out players for MLS to a much greater extent than the local semi-pro leagues are north and south of the border. This has led to a massive gap between the Canadian and US national teams that never used to exist and a Canadian MLS entry having to rely very heavily on American players to be competitive (unless of course you choose to use Mo Johnston as a scapegoat rather than facing the unpalatable reality of the situation).

CSL teams are not a major factor in the development of pro players these days (no need to point to the exceptions because my inclusion of the word "major" leaves room for them). None of the "CSL players" who played well against Bolton are the product of a conventional CSL franchise. TFC's investment in an academy system and various clubs in the former Yugoslavia were instead responsible for that. The CSL should be able to do more than it is right now but there is a massive rebuilding job required to get it back to the level the NSL used to be at and it's highly questionable whether the CSL as currently constituted actually represents the best possible setup for getting there. Something similar to the top state leagues in Melbourne and Sydney in Australia where there is promotion and relegation rather than a franchise system would help keep things cut throat and competitive by weeding out the weaker "franchises" and replacing them over time with actual soccer clubs (controlled by a broad membership and with a complete structure of teams from U-10 up through to the senior team) that people are more likely to identify with and actually want to pay to watch.

The CSL is slowly going better at the development side of things.

I would be very surprised if TFC doesnt promote at least 1 Academy player from the current crop. At some point, they need to pull the trigger and this is likely the best crop of players they've ever had in the program, although there were players in the program previously that were also very good and didn't get the callup. I think there is a certain amount of pressure on TFC to show the soccer community that the Academy is truly a pathway to MLS soccer, the way the Impact and the whitecaps have shown that their development programs can indeed result in a pro contract. Of course, MLS rules make it more complicated so I understand to some degree why they have been hesitant to bring someone up.

TFC better promote at least 2 guys from the academy by the start of next season. It will better than offering dev spots to NCAA players.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

On the CSL getting better thing I'd be interested to find out more about the background to Portugal FC's contribution to the latest U-17 roster. Is this a case of an affiliation with an elite youth club that would have done much the same job anyway without the link to a CSL team (that sort of scenario has unfolded in London in recent years with London City) or something genuinely along the lines of what clubs like Toronto Italia used to do?