Ottawa MLS bid not dead yet

[Ottawa MLS Fan]

I thought there was a stadium inside Ottawa that could welcome a soccer team

No, there is no stadium suitable for NASL or MLS. There may be a refurbished Frank Clair stadium ready by 2013, but even that will be a 24,000 seat CFL stadium which will provide a lousy game-day atmosphere if the NASL team only draws around the league average of 5,000. The other suggsted location is currently a baseball stadium that one developer suggets could be converted to soccer, but it really isn't clear to me how that could happen successfully.

[Trillium]

No, there is no stadium suitable for NASL or MLS. There may be a refurbished Frank Clair stadium ready by 2013, but even that will be a 24,000 seat CFL stadium which will provide a lousy game-day atmosphere if the NASL team only draws around the league average of 5,000. The other suggsted location is currently a baseball stadium that one developer suggets could be converted to soccer, but it really isn't clear to me how that could happen successfully.

Drop me a private message .. we can go to the Lynx stadium and show you how it converts.... first base line home plate to outfield wall 390 feet or 130 yeards... so long enough, for a 110 yead length, you then go out 80 yards or 240 feet from home plate down third based line for width, there is lots of space.

if you convert permanently you extend the south side seatig out to its maxium and have end zone terraces then add seating on north side as required.

Its a very easy conversion .. estimated sale price is under five million dollars.

[JamboAl]

Drop me a private message .. we can go to the Lynx stadium and show you how it converts.... first base line home plate to outfield wall 390 feet or 130 yeards... so long enough, for a 110 yead length, you then go out 80 yards or 240 feet from home plate down third based line for width, there is lots of space.

if you convert permanently you extend the south side seatig out to its maxium and have end zone terraces then add seating on north side as required.

Its a very easy conversion .. estimated sale price is under five million dollars.

I'd like to be part of that demo, Trillium. My understanding was that it couldn't be done because of Coventry Road and the reconfiguration needed to move the stands to a footy one. But maybe I've been taking in by the local media loving baseball crowd.

[thescottc]

Here's a photo of the proposed configuration:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ObmhpXd-SNU/SxqR5HSEPqI/AAAAAAAAAL8/a_hk9DLcjoc/s1600/stadium-Nov02%5B1%5D.jpg

I appreciate the creativity here, but I don't see it working. Less than half of the seats would have a decent view of the pitch, plus you'd never be able to sell corporate boxes with awful sightlines like that.

On top of that, the Ottawa Fat Cats currently own the lease for the stadium as far as I understand, and I don't think a soccer pitch and baseball diamond can co-exist on the same grounds.

[Jeremy]

and I don't think a soccer pitch and baseball diamond can co-exist on the same grounds.

I will agree that it is not what soccer teams should strive for, but there are 2 teams in USSF2 that play on baseball fields, dirt included.

[Ottawa MLS Fan]

My biggest fear is if Ottawa gets a NASL/USL team and it fails for whatever reason, the chance may never come again. For that reason, we need to be sure we aren't shooting ourselves in the foot with a stadium that is much too large, or the wrong shape or not enough parking or whatever. Hardcore fans will go whatever the experience, but to capture the casual soccer fan, the game-day experience needs to be good from day 1.

[Trident]

Hardcore fans will go whatever the experience, but to capture the casual soccer fan, the game-day experience needs to be good from day 1.

Not trying to be rude but werent you the dude who said only the MLS would be good enough?

[Ottawa MLS Fan]

Not trying to be rude but werent you the dude who said only the MLS would be good enough?

I've never said that only the MLS would be good enough. What I have said is that we as residents of Ottawa should put every effort into getting the best soccer possible for our city. While I believe that we have a chance of getting an MLS team that is what I will put my effort into. I don't believe that we should settle for lower division soccer while we have a potetnial owner with deep enough pockets to bring MLS to Ottawa, any more than I would have supported getting an AHL or ECHL team when the possibility of the Senators was being discussed. If Melnyk ever comes out and says he is no longer pursuing an MLS franchise, I will lower my sights to NASL/USL.

What ever happens, I will support whatever soccer is available in Ottawa. I am a current season ticket holder of the Fury PDL team. If we get an NASL/USL team playing out of Lansdowne or the baseball stadium, I will be a season ticket holder. But what I want is to be a season ticket holder for an Ottawa MLS team.

[Grizzly]

No, there is no stadium suitable for NASL or MLS. There may be a refurbished Frank Clair stadium ready by 2013, but even that will be a 24,000 seat CFL stadium which will provide a lousy game-day atmosphere if the NASL team only draws around the league average of 5,000. The other suggsted location is currently a baseball stadium that one developer suggets could be converted to soccer, but it really isn't clear to me how that could happen successfully.

In general I agree that large CFL stadiums are not the best venues for NASL soccer. On the other hand the old Frank Clair was really an exception to this rule. I have seen several soccer games there with attendances ranging from a couple thousand to full and always found it a good soccer stadium even when the crowd was small. The sightlines were good, the acoustic carried well and the way the two stands are opposed to each other gives an intimate feel. As opposed to many big stadiums where one feels the crowd is smaller than it is, at Frank Clair one always had the impression that there were more than actually there. There is no guarantee the new stadium will be the same but the design seems to have some of the same qualities that the old stadium had. Obviously a soccer specific 10 000 seat NASL stadium or a 20000 seat MLS stadium would be ideal but I think there is a good chance that the new Frank Clair would be a decent venue since nothing else is available.

[Ottawa MLS Fan]

What about Twin Elms Rugby Park in Nepean for NASL/USL? I've never been but apparently it has grandstand seating for around 6,000. They also say it can be rented out to soccer teams. Looking at video on Youtube, there is plenty of space to add more bleachers if a team was successful. Has anybody been and what did you think?

[BuzzAndSting]

i dont wanna burst anyone's bubble but the ottawa will never a mls franchise, at least not in the short to mid term -- Garber used ottawa as levrage when the negotiations with JS went sour.

As per the person who said ottawa averaged more people at the U-20. First off, Frank clair is bigger than BMO and did they survey the crowd to see where they came from?

The key is to develop the sports market just like it was in montreal and vancouver and this begins with a division 2 team and a half stadium a la SS. lets look at this objectively, the CFL didnt survive in ottawa how can a soccer team live long and prosper.

CFL didn't survive because the CFL let idiots run franchises. The Renegades/Rough Riders always averaged around 25K for games.

NASL would be good. for Ottawa, MLS would be great. Jeff Hunt, the owner of the Ottawa 67s and frontman of the group bringing the CFL back has had discussions with the MLS about the possibility of acquiring a franchise. Unfortunately though MLS has said they will only allow one more team for the foreseeable future and that team seems to be going to NYC and will be owned by Fred Wilpon of the NY Mets and possibly David Beckham (he has first right of refusal on the 20th franchise in his contract).

[BuzzAndSting]

Here's a photo of the proposed configuration:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ObmhpXd-SNU/SxqR5HSEPqI/AAAAAAAAAL8/a_hk9DLcjoc/s1600/stadium-Nov02%5B1%5D.jpg

I appreciate the creativity here, but I don't see it working. Less than half of the seats would have a decent view of the pitch, plus you'd never be able to sell corporate boxes with awful sightlines like that.

On top of that, the Ottawa Fat Cats currently own the lease for the stadium as far as I understand, and I don't think a soccer pitch and baseball diamond can co-exist on the same grounds.

Someone seriously thinks that can work? I love soccer and live in Ottawa. I travel to Toronto and Montreal frequently for MNT, TFC, Impact and exhibition games. I live fives minutes from Ottawa Baseball Stadium and would never consider going to any soccer game there. That's just embarassing, let's not bring that up again.

[BuzzAndSting]

Twin Elm is wayyyyyyyyy to far.

[Grizzly]

What about Twin Elms Rugby Park in Nepean for NASL/USL? I've never been but apparently it has grandstand seating for around 6,000. They also say it can be rented out to soccer teams. Looking at video on Youtube, there is plenty of space to add more bleachers if a team was successful. Has anybody been and what did you think?

Twin Elms is only technically in Nepean/Ottawa. It is really a rural area that is far from the city but happens to be within its boundaries. Decent stadium to hold one off events for hardcore fans like rugby international but would be a disaster for a team looking to attract regular crowds of several thousand on a regular basis. We already had the Ottawa Wizards playing in a rural stadium far from the city and that did not suceed either.

[Ottawa MLS Fan]

Twin Elm is wayyyyyyyyy to far.

Twin Elms is only technically in Nepean/Ottawa. It is really a rural area that is far from the city but happens to be within its boundaries. Decent stadium to hold one off events for hardcore fans like rugby international but would be a disaster for a team looking to attract regular crowds of several thousand on a regular basis. We already had the Ottawa Wizards playing in a rural stadium far from the city and that did not suceed either.

OKay, now I am officially concerned about the future of professional soccer in Ottawa. Do you want to watch soccer live or do you want to spend your time whining on discussion boards about how Ottawa should have a team?

I admit that Twin Elms is not a location I would pick, but it isn't that bad. There is good highway access (417/416), it's only 12 miles from Kanata, 14 miles from Nepean and 18 miles from Lansdowne Park. Sure, people would have to travel, but that is true of wherever a team goes. A team can't be close to everyone. Ottawa is a geographically big city, 2760 sq kms. Get over it. If people aren't prepared to travel some distance to a game, then we either need to get 4 or 5 NASL/USL teams (ain't gonna happen) spread across the city or we forget the whole thing (ain't gonna happen with me).

I currently drive 36 miles each way to watch the Ottawa Fury PDL team and I expect that I will have to travel a similar distance, or further, to see a higher level of soccer. Ideally, a new team would play within walking distance of my house, but when that doesn't happen, I'm not going to turn around and say it's "wayyyyyyyyy to far", so I'm not going. That's pathetic.

[thescottc]

I admit that Twin Elms is not a location I would pick, but it isn't that bad. There is good highway access (417/416), it's only 12 miles from Kanata, 14 miles from Nepean and 18 miles from Lansdowne Park. Sure, people would have to travel, but that is true of wherever a team goes. A team can't be close to everyone. Ottawa is a geographically big city, 2760 sq kms. Get over it. If people aren't prepared to travel some distance to a game, then we either need to get 4 or 5 NASL/USL teams (ain't gonna happen) spread across the city or we forget the whole thing (ain't gonna happen with me).

Twin Elm is a nice idea. I've played rugby there on a few occasions in the past. There are a few problems with it:

- No buses out there. (Could be fixed)

- Very little parking. (Could be expanded, cause it's nothing but farm land around it)

- Very small grandstand currently, and from the satellite view it doesn't look like there'd be room to put another one on the other side as it's so close to the road.

- Several rugby clubs in Ottawa use it as their home field, plus it's also the home of the regional Ottawa Harlequins team. I'm not sure a pro soccer team could co-exist there without causing major disruptions.

I'm liking the brainstorming that's going on here. I'm finding myself racking my brain trying to think of any other places in the area that could accomodate a team.

Is there anything on the Quebec side, maybe?

[JamboAl]

I think that's the rugby stadium that has hosted some of Canada's internationals in the past. The main problem with it is location; even though it says Nepean, I think it's actually Richmond and is a good 45mins from downtown in light traffic.

[Ottawa MLS Fan]

Twin Elm is a nice idea. I've played rugby there on a few occasions in the past. There are a few problems with it:

- No buses out there. (Could be fixed)

- Very little parking. (Could be expanded, cause it's nothing but farm land around it)

- Very small grandstand currently, and from the satellite view it doesn't look like there'd be room to put another one on the other side as it's so close to the road.

- Several rugby clubs in Ottawa use it as their home field, plus it's also the home of the regional Ottawa Harlequins team. I'm not sure a pro soccer team could co-exist there without causing major disruptions.

I'm liking the brainstorming that's going on here. I'm finding myself racking my brain trying to think of any other places in the area that could accomodate a team.

Is there anything on the Quebec side, maybe?

Don't know of anything on the Quebec side.

The grandstand apparently has seating for 6,000, so likely wouldn't need expanding, at least in the short to medium term. The biggest problem, as you suggest, may be scheduling games around the existing rugby fixtures. Any idea how many times a summer Twin Elms is used?

[Grizzly]

OKay, now I am officially concerned about the future of professional soccer in Ottawa. Do you want to watch soccer live or do you want to spend your time whining on discussion boards about how Ottawa should have a team?

I admit that Twin Elms is not a location I would pick, but it isn't that bad. There is good highway access (417/416), it's only 12 miles from Kanata, 14 miles from Nepean and 18 miles from Lansdowne Park. Sure, people would have to travel, but that is true of wherever a team goes. A team can't be close to everyone. Ottawa is a geographically big city, 2760 sq kms. Get over it. If people aren't prepared to travel some distance to a game, then we either need to get 4 or 5 NASL/USL teams (ain't gonna happen) spread across the city or we forget the whole thing (ain't gonna happen with me).

I currently drive 36 miles each way to watch the Ottawa Fury PDL team and I expect that I will have to travel a similar distance, or further, to see a higher level of soccer. Ideally, a new team would play within walking distance of my house, but when that doesn't happen, I'm not going to turn around and say it's "wayyyyyyyyy to far", so I'm not going. That's pathetic.

This is a very stupid post. Noone is whining about anything, we are discussing where it would be appropriate to put a team so it could succeed. Putting a team in a farming community in the middle of nowhere is not going to be a good location for a team. Even Kanata is not the ideal location but it might work because it is heavily populated and easily accessible by public transportation. Putting a team in Richmond would be financial suicide. If I lived in Ottawa and there was a USL team at Twin Elms I would make the effort to go there and see games along with probably about 200-300 other hardcore soccer fans in Ottawa. That is about the attendance that the Ottawa Wizards used to get and probably the Harlequins rugby team has attendance in that range. Casual fans are not going to go out to Richmond to see a game and there will be no way to develop a following beyond the few hundred hardcore fans who would travel anywhere to see a game. That is not even close the attendance required for USL. You couldn't pick a worse location for a professional soccer team.

[Vic]

Grizzly - your unbiased objectivity and wise opinion deserves the key to the city. I don't think NASL could survive at Lansdowne let alone way out in god's green acres. That only works in Kevin Costner movies.

The headline "Only 746 people attended the Impact Minnesota Stars game" is a bellwether clue.

[Seb of Mtl]

We should stop this discussion the ottawa bid isnt dead but at the very least its on the last burner in the back! MLS has no plans to go to ottawa, they're looking at miami,NYC or st. louis for another franchise in the short term. Also this discussion isnt going anywhere -- ottawa is a bad sports market period.

[Vic]

If Grizz gets the key to the city you get the ass-kick out of town.

Senators average 18k per game, Leafs are 19k and Habs are 21k. That's from a city with a metro population of 1M against 4M and 5M. The junior hockey team has always been one of the best in the entire country in terms of attendance. Great numbers for U20 and Francophone games soccer. World Juniors, the Brier, Skate Canada, World Ringette, University basketball, you name it they all do well.

Baseball and football have had problems in Ottawa for the past few decades because they're predominantly American sports that have almost disappeared at the school level and have aged and contracted markets. But to translate that into calling the city a bad sports city is like calling Montreal one because they lost the Expos and have the lowest CFL attendance in Canada.

Ottawa is a white-collar "family" sports market. People who understand that do quite well.

[kyam]

No, there is no stadium suitable for NASL or MLS. There may be a refurbished Frank Clair stadium ready by 2013, but even that will be a 24,000 seat CFL stadium which will provide a lousy game-day atmosphere if the NASL team only draws around the league average of 5,000. The other suggsted location is currently a baseball stadium that one developer suggets could be converted to soccer, but it really isn't clear to me how that could happen successfully.

If Ottawa only draws 5000 fans downtown (With Downtown being the most densely populated area, that allows for hundreds if not thousands of supporters that can simply walk to Frank Clair from anywhere in the core of the city)...

... how can you expect this same city to draw the MLS average of 16 500 fans (2010) way out in Kanata with nobody able to walk to the stadium? Folks are either forced to drive, or take a long bus ride. We talk about fan experience, try taking a bus from downtown to ScotiaBank place on game-day.

The CFL ownership can always do what Seattle's ownership does. Close off the 200-level of seats for NASL games, so that fans are close to field level. That can improve the experience of the fans significantly.

Keep in mind, the Toronto Lynk's had poor support for multiple reasons, one of which was the location of its stadium. Centenial Park was way out in Etobicoke. While Marketing and Brand power played a role, you can't discount location as one of the reason's TFC's attendence fares so much better. Downtown stadiums are always far more desirable than suburban.

I understand Toyota Park & Red Bull Arena are also suburban... but 2 issues. 1) Red Bull Arena actually has Subway access through Penn Station to NYC. 2) Both stadiums are in cities that are highly populated and more dense relative to Ottawa.

Anyhow, I think we agree more than we disagree. We both believe Ottawa can support an MLS or NASL team. However, I firmly believe that Ottawa needs all the puzzle pieces to fit together. Having a stadium in Kanata means, Location is the final piece missing from completing the puzzle.

For me, NASL in Frank Clair is the next best alternative (By no means is it perfect). Ottawa fan's will continue to get "MLS quality" (whatever that means) matches through 3 home nutrilite matches against MLS opponents.

[Free kick]

If Ottawa only draws 5000 fans downtown (With Downtown being the most densely populated area, that allows for hundreds if not thousands of supporters that can simply walk to Frank Clair from anywhere in the core of the city)...

... how can you expect this same city to draw the MLS average of 16 500 fans (2010) way out in Kanata with nobody able to walk to the stadium? Folks are either forced to drive, or take a long bus ride. We talk about fan experience, try taking a bus from downtown to ScotiaBank place on game-day.

The CFL ownership can always do what Seattle's ownership does. Close off the 200-level of seats for NASL games, so that fans are close to field level. That can improve the experience of the fans significantly.

Keep in mind, the Toronto Lynk's had poor support for multiple reasons, one of which was the location of its stadium. Centenial Park was way out in Etobicoke. While Marketing and Brand power played a role, you can't discount location as one of the reason's TFC's attendence fares so much better. Downtown stadiums are always far more desirable than suburban.

I understand Toyota Park & Red Bull Arena are also suburban... but 2 issues. 1) Red Bull Arena actually has Subway access through Penn Station to NYC. 2) Both stadiums are in cities that are highly populated and more dense relative to Ottawa.

Anyhow, I think we agree more than we disagree. We both believe Ottawa can support an MLS or NASL team. However, I firmly believe that Ottawa needs all the puzzle pieces to fit together. Having a stadium in Kanata means, Location is the final piece missing from completing the puzzle.

For me, NASL in Frank Clair is the next best alternative (By no means is it perfect). Ottawa fan's will continue to get "MLS quality" (whatever that means) matches through 3 home nutrilite matches against MLS opponents.

Agreed. Think of the typical seasons tickets buyer and what will go though his mind as he or she contemplates a purchase:

Prospective buyer: OK, I'll be buying tickets for 15-17 events from April to October in which case 10-15 of these events will occur on weekends. so that leaves anywhere from 2-7 events that could be on week night. So over the span of 20-24 weeks I will have commited to an event to make covering a majority of the summer and part of the Spring and fall. Next what is the measure of my enjoy ment of the event.

How much extra time is added to my commitment if the location of the event is less than ideal. Next how much of the total enjoyment is negatively impacted by the extra communte or the mere fact that you cannot attend a greater number of games ( say weekday games) that you would have if the facility were somewhat centrally located and accessible with regular and frequent public transit.

Now I judge the option on value for the money basis. These decisons will ultimate greatly outweigh weather or not I am a fanatic for the sport because even if I am , I still have the option of getting my fix by buying walk up tickets for maybe 2-3 events per year at cost of maybe 30-35 bucks per game ( or 100$ a year roughly)

Every one of us here is in the same boat. If it costs $300 for 17 season tickets then that come out out to roughly 17.50 a ticket plus opportunity. But if I can only attend 10 games, then each is costing me $30 per ticket plus the opportunity costs which are higher. I wouldn't buy the seaon tickets myself... its not worth it to me, I am better off waiting for resales and going to 2-3 games per year. Now what about the casuals?

Season tickets are the liveblood of any team. the reason for that is becasue the money is in bank before the season starts. This is even more crucial when you consider the poor weather we get in Canada in April, May and October in Canada. With a healty season ticket base, your are insulated against poor weather.

[thescottc]

^ I always hated going to Renegades games downtown because of the lack of parking (valet only). You either had to park on the street and have a 20 minute walk to the stadium or park at the Park & Ride and take the bus.