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Ottawa MLS bid not dead yet


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The Fury is part of the process part of OSEG as potential tenant / owned part of group, what evolves is open to determination.... there is a second group led by Claridge homes money who wants to buy the Lynx baseball stadia and convert it to a 15 k soccer specific stadia, so far recs and parks hates the idea of losing a baseball diamond to soccer and have been blocking any offers to buy.... there is a Ontario county team playing now i believe but have no idea on how they are doing

They are doing surprisingly well attendance wise which astonishes me since the baseball is horrible (trust me, I used to be a Lynx season ticket guy). The team is a big fish in a small pond when it comes to stadia. I haven't been but have seen some of it on TV and not sure I'd want to go to the stadium except to drink beer and socialize.

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thats exactly my point. NASL is the best avenue for ottawa at this time. Ottawa in the NASL would be amazing for canadian soccer and its a good product.

Products are for consumers, soccer clubs are for supporters!!!! :)

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yes travelling fans would be one question to ask amongst many others

Except that this question would be even more pertinent in regards to Montreal's attendance at the U20. Montreal was the easiest city to get to for the ethnic communities in the North-Eastern US. I talked to many ethnic fans at the Montreal games and there were thousands from Toronto and the US.

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i dont wanna burst anyone's bubble but the ottawa will never a mls franchise, at least not in the short to mid term -- Garber used ottawa as levrage when the negotiations with JS went sour.

As per the person who said ottawa averaged more people at the U-20. First off, Frank clair is bigger than BMO and did they survey the crowd to see where they came from?

The key is to develop the sports market just like it was in montreal and vancouver and this begins with a division 2 team and a half stadium a la SS. lets look at this objectively, the CFL didnt survive in ottawa how can a soccer team live long and prosper.

Interesting points:

I'm impressed with your knowledge of Garber's innermost thoughts. Maybe sometime you can explain how you come to have such an insight.

Yes Frank Clair is bigger than BMO Place which resulted in a higher average attendance in Ottawa, but the percentlage of capacity was also slightly higher in Ottawa as well, so the point is not valid. With games in Toronto and Montreal, I doubt there were many travelling fans, with the execption of a few die-hard fans of countries that were only playing in Ottawa.

Saying that " the CFL didnt survive in ottawa how can a soccer team live long and prosper" is comparing apples to oranges. Soccer is a different sport, with a different demographic of fans. We have seen many examples of how support for lower levels of soccer is not even a good predictor of MLS attendance, so how you can use different sports as an indicator is beyond me.

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yes travelling fans would be one question to ask amongst many others

Having been to most of the games at Frank Clair, I can tell you that yes, there were pockets of travelling fans. However, they made up nowhere near the majority of the attendees. Most of the people there were Ottawa soccer fans and members of various soccer clubs from the area. I was part of a group sale made by the soccer club that I was coaching at at the time and this club is situated 45 minutes outside of downtown Ottawa. The U20s brought out alot of people from all over the Ottawa valley. An MLS/NASL team could do the same (on a somewhat diminished scale) if marketed properly.

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Yes Frank Clair is bigger than BMO Place which resulted in a higher average attendance in Ottawa, but the percentlage of capacity was also slightly higher in Ottawa as well, so the point is not valid. With games in Toronto and Montreal, I doubt there were many travelling fans, with the execption of a few die-hard fans of countries that were only playing in Ottawa.

Um, I thought all the games at BMO were sold out. Regardless, I agree that comparing soccer to CFL football is a bad comparison. Yet, comparing International Soccer in downtown Ottawa to MLS Soccer way out in Kanata is also comparing apples and oranges

As Toronto's soccer community as an example, the same ethnic communities that came out, for say, the Argentina match will not necessarily support the domestic game. The only reason why TFC is a success despite the ethnic communities, is because the GTA has 7 times more people than Ottawa, including many soccer fans!

However, I think a USL or MLS club in Ottawa has the potential to be successful. It would certainly be more successful than some weaker MLS sides in attendence (ie: RSL, Columbus, FC Dallas etc...).

The problem with Melnyk's MLS, is the fact that the stadium is located way out in Kanata. BMO Field and Saputo Stadium are both located downtown and is part of the reason why Toronto and Montreal do so well when it comes to attendence.

The Red BUlls new arena is beautiful, but its biggest liability is the fact that it is located in New Jersey. Luckily, NYC has an amazing train/subway system that can take fans to Newark, even then, they are having trouble filling the stadium.

Ottawa currently lacks any real transit. The Transitway is a pretty weak alternative to a Subway or Skytrain system, and buses don't have nearly enough capacity to carry an MLS size stadium to and from downtown!

Because of the location, I personally believe a NASL franchise at Frank Clair will be a much better draw than an MLS team way out in Kanata. I believe the Ottawa Senators have one of the worst attendence records among the Canadian NHL franchise.

The ACC, Bell Centre, Telus Centre, Saddledome and GM Place all had more sellouts than Scotia Bank Place (Scotia bank place is the smallest too).

Sens have a lot of fans, but the problem is LOCATION!

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^ I understand what you are saying and agree somewhat, however keep in mind that there are development plans already in place that has 1300 houses going in across the highway from Scotiabank place, and that's just one location. I believe south of Scotiabank place is being developed quite quickly too. Kanata has exploded (I have no idea where all these people are coming from) and if you add a couple bars within walking distance of Scotiabank place (which someone should do anyways) or wherever the stadium will be, you can make that area a viable game day destination, both for the people already in and around the area and those that may be coming from downtown.

The biggest problem with seeing a Sens game live in the past has been the traffic (that and the other Sens fans). That has been alleviated somewhat via the changes in the 417. However, you can mostly discount those when talking MLS, because those problems are much less pronounced on weekends. People going to Sens games usually have to fight the regular rush hour traffic, but that would be gone on Saturday afternoons in the summer. Also, because it is the summer, you'd be much more likely to find those that would make the day of it (head to the bar early, go to the game and then head back to the bar afterwards and then cab it/bus it back home later) rather than in the middle of February.

I believe an MLS team in Kanata would be a better draw than a USL franchise at Frank Clair however I do not know if that draw would be good enough to sustain an MLS team.

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The problem with Melnyk's MLS, is the fact that the stadium is located way out in Kanata. BMO Field and Saputo Stadium are both located downtown and is part of the reason why Toronto and Montreal do so well when it comes to attendence.

Have you ever been to Stade Saputo? It is defintely not in downtown Montreal though it is 7 km from downtown as compared to about 20 km for Scotia Bank Place. On the other hand Stade Saputo is in a low income area of the city that has almost nothing other than the Olympic stadium and is known for crime. The main advantage it has location wise over Kanata is that it has a subway link to downtown so one can get there in 20 minutes from downtown on the metro. At some point one would think that there will be an improved public transportation link between Kanata and downtown especially if two stadiums were located there.

Ottawa currently lacks any real transit. The Transitway is a pretty weak alternative to a Subway or Skytrain system, and buses don't have nearly enough capacity to carry an MLS size stadium to and from downtown!

In general I think Ottawa has a pretty good transit system though Kanata is not as well served as it should be. The transitway is pretty decent though certainly not as good as the Montreal metro. On the other hand the bus system in Montreal if you are not on a metro route is pretty crappy, much worse than in Ottawa.

Because of the location, I personally believe a NASL franchise at Frank Clair will be a much better draw than an MLS team way out in Kanata. I believe the Ottawa Senators have one of the worst attendence records among the Canadian NHL franchise.

The ACC, Bell Centre, Telus Centre, Saddledome and GM Place all had more sellouts than Scotia Bank Place (Scotia bank place is the smallest too).

Sens have a lot of fans, but the problem is LOCATION!

So you consider 98.8 % capacity attendance to be bad attendance? And this is after a year in which they didn't make the playoffs, the years before they were among the top attendance in the league. Personally, I agree that a downtown stadium is preferrable though I don't think one in Kanata would necessarily be a failure.

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Except that this question would be even more pertinent in regards to Montreal's attendance at the U20. Montreal was the easiest city to get to for the ethnic communities in the North-Eastern US. I talked to many ethnic fans at the Montreal games and there were thousands from Toronto and the US.

Yes. I recall driving back to TO just after one of the Poland games at the U20 in Montreal and the service centres were packed with Polish-Canadians driving back to the GTA who had been to that game. Also, anyone who has traveled to some of the Gold cup matches (eg.: Foxborough in 2003) would have easily noticed that a significant contingent of supporters from latin american counties makeup a big part of the crowd. We ran into some even in Miami traveling from the north east to be at the 2002 GC.

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Yes. I recall driving back to TO just after one of the Poland games at the U20 in Montreal and the service centres were packed with Polish-Canadians driving back to the GTA who had been to that game. Also, anyone who has traveled to some of the Gold cup matches (eg.: Foxborough in 2003) would have easily noticed that a significant contingent of supporters from latin american counties makeup a big part of the crowd. We ran into some even in Miami traveling from the north east to be at the 2002 GC.

Yes I was at that game and there were thousands of Poles there and most were from southern Ontario and the northern US not Montreal. It was similar for games with other nations as well. I am sure Ottawa had a lot of travelling fans too but if this is going to be mentioned then the poster should not ignore the same phenomenon in other cities including his own. Toronto had less travelling fans but mostly because the small size of the stadium made it a lot harder for non-residents to get tickets and its large population meant that local ethnic communities often bought up those tickets that were available.

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Interesting points:

I'm impressed with your knowledge of Garber's innermost thoughts. Maybe sometime you can explain how you come to have such an insight.

Yes Frank Clair is bigger than BMO Place which resulted in a higher average attendance in Ottawa, but the percentlage of capacity was also slightly higher in Ottawa as well, so the point is not valid. With games in Toronto and Montreal, I doubt there were many travelling fans, with the execption of a few die-hard fans of countries that were only playing in Ottawa.

Saying that " the CFL didnt survive in ottawa how can a soccer team live long and prosper" is comparing apples to oranges. Soccer is a different sport, with a different demographic of fans. We have seen many examples of how support for lower levels of soccer is not even a good predictor of MLS attendance, so how you can use different sports as an indicator is beyond me.

if i am so wrong and soccer is so meaningful for the city of ottawa, why didnt the city and all the other actors implicated in the MLS bid do whatever was needed to get the franchise at any price? Also, i am not seeing any pro sports leagues running to ottawa to set up a franchise. Your right soccer isnt football but i am ready to bet that the key demographics of the people that watch the games on tv/web, buy tickets merchandise food etc are the same for every sport in north america. We are all soccer fans but lets face it, in north america, it is not population driven its business driven and a set of conditions need to be put in place for a franchise to be successful. Sorry, this is my opinion, i just dont see MLS going to ottawa in the near future. There is nothing wrong with the NASL and grow a market then one day look towards the mls.

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if i am so wrong and soccer is so meaningful for the city of ottawa, why didnt the city and all the other actors implicated in the MLS bid do whatever was needed to get the franchise at any price? Also, i am not seeing any pro sports leagues running to ottawa to set up a franchise. Your right soccer isnt football but i am ready to bet that the key demographics of the people that watch the games on tv/web, buy tickets merchandise food etc are the same for every sport in north america. We are all soccer fans but lets face it, in north america, it is not population driven its business driven and a set of conditions need to be put in place for a franchise to be successful. Sorry, this is my opinion, i just dont see MLS going to ottawa in the near future. There is nothing wrong with the NASL and grow a market then one day look towards the mls.

What the city of Ottawa choose to do and not do is a complete mystery to me, and not just with their dealings related to soccer.

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Have you ever been to Stade Saputo? It is defintely not in downtown Montreal though it is 7 km from downtown as compared to about 20 km for Scotia Bank Place.

What I find is that geography is relative. You can't compare geography strictly with distance. 7 KM subway ride from McGill Station to Olympic Stadium is a quick ride. Yet, a 20 min bus ride, on an "Special Scotiabank Place" bus is a 45 min trip.

Until a few months ago, I lived in downtown Ottawa, and the bus from Rideau Mall to Scotia Bank place sucks. First, if you show up as the bus arrives, theirs no space on the bus. Second, the bus isn't every 2-3 minutes like the Toronto Subway. U really have to do a lot of planning, something that casual fans might not be willing to do.

I did my Masters dissertation on Public Transit and funding structures. Studies show that a psychological barrier between the bus and the Subway (or light Rail). Rail tends has the impact of attracting riders that buses just don't have.

Personally, I agree that a downtown stadium is preferrable though I don't think one in Kanata would necessarily be a failure.

Sen's may be able to draw 17 000 per game cause its NHL hockey in a major Canadian city. But how can MLS soccer in a smaller market draw fans when geography is such a major barrier.

Vancouver can draw fans to Swangard in Burnaby, but Vancouver has the market and their club has the history!

Ottawa already faces a number of disadvantages, including the size of their market, a history of failed sports franchise (CFL Roughriders, CFL Renegades, Ottawa Lynks, Ottawa Rapidz, the Voyageurs baseball team etc...), an uncooperative City Council and has little fan support from their existing franchise (vis-a-vis Impact/Whitecaps)

Location of stadium is something that they can actually control. While its not the end of the world for larger markets, for Ottawa, all the puzzle pieces need to fall into place for MLS soccer to work. Why create a barrier by putting a team in Kanata?

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if i am so wrong and soccer is so meaningful for the city of ottawa, why didnt the city and all the other actors implicated in the MLS bid do whatever was needed to get the franchise at any price? Also, i am not seeing any pro sports leagues running to ottawa to set up a franchise. Your right soccer isnt football but i am ready to bet that the key demographics of the people that watch the games on tv/web, buy tickets merchandise food etc are the same for every sport in north america. We are all soccer fans but lets face it, in north america, it is not population driven its business driven and a set of conditions need to be put in place for a franchise to be successful. Sorry, this is my opinion, i just dont see MLS going to ottawa in the near future. There is nothing wrong with the NASL and grow a market then one day look towards the mls.

I think you make an interesting point with the failure of the CFL. But the failure of sports in Ottawa goes further than just the CFL. The Ottawa Lynks, triple-A baseball team left town, it was soon replaced by the Ottawa Rapidz that also left town, that was then replaced by the Ottawa Voyageurs, that failed before the played a single game!.

So its more than the two failed CFL franchises. Ottawa has a history of failure in sports, and to think Soccer is different is sort of naive. The Embassy crowd are people with no ties to Ottawa nor Canada, so I highly doubt that they would be a reliable support base. Even the "ethnic" community in Toronto and Montreal, with strong ties to the community find it hard to support TFC and the Impact.

Some may point to hockey and the success of the Sens as a success story... unfortunately, even the Sen's had a difficult time, until Toronto businessman Eugene Melnyk bought them out. They almost went bankrupt before that. So if hockey had difficulty in the nations capital, the management team for a MLS or USL team needs to make everything work, or failure is imminent.

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^ I understand what you are saying and agree somewhat, however keep in mind that there are development plans already in place that has 1300 houses going in across the highway from Scotiabank place, and that's just one location. I believe south of Scotiabank place is being developed quite quickly too. Kanata has exploded (I have no idea where all these people are coming from) and if you add a couple bars within walking distance of Scotiabank place (which someone should do anyways) or wherever the stadium will be, you can make that area a viable game day destination, both for the people already in and around the area and those that may be coming from downtown.

I think Kanata has grown a lot in the context of a suburb, but you have to realize, that growth is relative. Relative to Kanata, they have grown a lot, but the bulk of Ottawa's market is East of Kanata. Having lived in Markham, a suburb of Toronto, with a population of about 300 000 (about the size of Saskatoon), Kanata has a tiny population of only 100 000 in comparison, and even an extra housing development won't make it that much more relevant.

Its an interesting concept to think that Kanata is part of Ottawa after amalgamation. But Toronto also amalgamated and the reason it was LESS of a failure (even tho it was a failure in TO as well), is cause Toronto amalgamated 5 big urban cities (Scaraborough, East York, North York, Etobicoke and Toronto), that all have subway access and an urbanized transit culture.

With the Greenbelt between Ottawa and Kanata, there is already a separation between the two cities. The Kanata development is not sustainable, it is dominated my low-density development, a car-friendly culture, which artificially increases the level of traffic relative to the population.

So none of the residents of Kanata who attend hockey/soccer games will be walking or taking the bus. They will all be driving, thus increasing the level of traffic in and around the stadium. If Melnyk had a competing bid in say, Lebreton Flats, I believe the whole MLS plan might actually be sustainable.

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I think you make an interesting point with the failure of the CFL. But the failure of sports in Ottawa goes further than just the CFL. The Ottawa Lynks, triple-A baseball team left town, it was soon replaced by the Ottawa Rapidz that also left town, that was then replaced by the Ottawa Voyageurs, that failed before the played a single game!.

So its more than the two failed CFL franchises. Ottawa has a history of failure in sports, and to think Soccer is different is sort of naive. The Embassy crowd are people with no ties to Ottawa nor Canada, so I highly doubt that they would be a reliable support base. Even the "ethnic" community in Toronto and Montreal, with strong ties to the community find it hard to support TFC and the Impact.

Some may point to hockey and the success of the Sens as a success story... unfortunately, even the Sen's had a difficult time, until Toronto businessman Eugene Melnyk bought them out. They almost went bankrupt before that. So if hockey had difficulty in the nations capital, the management team for a MLS or USL team needs to make everything work, or failure is imminent.

Baseball has all but disappeared across Canada, so to say that it shows Ottawa is not a sports town is not correct, and the Senators only faced bankcruptcy after having paid for ScotiaBank Place themselves with no government support, even for the new highway interchange.

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Baseball has all but disappeared across Canada, so to say that it shows Ottawa is not a sports town is not correct, and the Senators only faced bankcruptcy after having paid for ScotiaBank Place themselves with no government support, even for the new highway interchange.

I'm no baseball fan, but you need to back up what your saying with fact. Baseball has not disappeared in Canada. The attendence at Jays games are horrible, I'll give you that. But the Blue Jays are enjoying some of the best television ratings in its history. Why? Cause fans from across Canada are supporting the Blue Jays. Baseball has not disappeared, Blue Jay's TV ratings are among the best in MLB.

Also, most cities have lost sports franchises, Montreal lost the Expos, Vancouver lost the Grizzlies, heck, even Toronto struggled to support the Lynks.

But Ottawa has lost so many sports franchise, you CANNOT make excuses for each one and expect soccer to thrive in the boonies.

If you think building a stadium in Kanata would work, you must have grown up in the far-out suburbs of Ottawa (for the record, I live in suburban Ottawa, except IN the greenbelt). But an MLS club can't rely solely on the support of Soccer Mom's in the suburbs. It needs the support of the young, dynamic sports fans, many of which live on the inner-side of the Greenbelt including the downtown core where folks don't generally own cars.

Soccer can work in Ottawa. But you seem to think its a guarentee, just because soccer is "different" than the other sports that have failed in Ottawa.

The Sen's are profitable now, but it still remains the least lucrative market of the 6 existing franchises in Canada, in a city that considers itself a Hockey town. The Sen's and the 67's are the only success story in Ottawa sports history. If MLS is to work in Ottawa, it would need to be downtown, near the transitway, and marketed properly.

Melnyk's bid in Kanata is weak. While the USL bid downtown has its flaws (ie: shares a stadium), it is better than Melnyk's proposal. While I prefer MLS, I would much rather have a successful USL franchise, than a weak MLS team in the National Capital Region.

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I do not get why Melnik, if he "understands the sport" as many are saying, won't buy a NASL franchise. By this time it would already be on foot and it would be playing either this season or the next one. If he can make it work then he has a good asset while bidding for MLS. But probably this has been said 20 times already.

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I'm no baseball fan, but you need to back up what your saying with fact. Baseball has not disappeared in Canada. The attendence at Jays games are horrible, I'll give you that. But the Blue Jays are enjoying some of the best television ratings in its history. Why? Cause fans from across Canada are supporting the Blue Jays. Baseball has not disappeared, Blue Jay's TV ratings are among the best in MLB.

Also, most cities have lost sports franchises, Montreal lost the Expos, Vancouver lost the Grizzlies, heck, even Toronto struggled to support the Lynks.

But Ottawa has lost so many sports franchise, you CANNOT make excuses for each one and expect soccer to thrive in the boonies.

If you think building a stadium in Kanata would work, you must have grown up in the far-out suburbs of Ottawa (for the record, I live in suburban Ottawa, except IN the greenbelt). But an MLS club can't rely solely on the support of Soccer Mom's in the suburbs. It needs the support of the young, dynamic sports fans, many of which live on the inner-side of the Greenbelt including the downtown core where folks don't generally own cars.

Soccer can work in Ottawa. But you seem to think its a guarentee, just because soccer is "different" than the other sports that have failed in Ottawa.

The Sen's are profitable now, but it still remains the least lucrative market of the 6 existing franchises in Canada, in a city that considers itself a Hockey town. The Sen's and the 67's are the only success story in Ottawa sports history. If MLS is to work in Ottawa, it would need to be downtown, near the transitway, and marketed properly.

Melnyk's bid in Kanata is weak. While the USL bid downtown has its flaws (ie: shares a stadium), it is better than Melnyk's proposal. While I prefer MLS, I would much rather have a successful USL franchise, than a weak MLS team in the National Capital Region.

My comment regarding "Baseball has all but disappeared across Canada" was talking about professional baseball being played, not TV ratings. The Blue Jays are the only MLB team left. The Ottawa Lynx were the last triple A team in Canada (source: The Death of Triple A Baseball in Canada – a lesson in what not to do (http://sportsbiznews.blogspot.com/2006/09/death-of-triple-baseball-in-canada.html)). The fact that Ottawa held onto triple A ball longer than any other market in Canada cannot be used as an argument that Ottawa is not a sports town.

I made no guarantee that soccer would survive because it was different. I only said that to extrapolate baseball's failure to an inevitable soccer failure was invalid.

I completely disagree with you that USL as a tenant in a 24,000 seat CFL stadium with insufficient transit or parking is a better plan than MLS that controls all revenues in a soccer-specific stadium in the suburbs. My personal belief is that while USL may survive in Ottawa, it will likely not thrive under those circumstances. MLS? Who knows? I believe it would thrive, but that can only be a belief at present. The only way to prove it either way is for Ottawa to get a team and see what happens.

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I do not get why Melnik, if he "understands the sport" as many are saying, won't buy a NASL franchise. By this time it would already be on foot and it would be playing either this season or the next one. If he can make it work then he has a good asset while bidding for MLS. But probably this has been said 20 times already.

Why on earth would Melnyk buy an NASL franchise?? He has no stadium, and if he is going to build a stadium for NASL, why not build the MLS stadium straight away. He can afford the franchise fee and has done enough market research to convince himself that the team is viable.

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Why on earth would Melnyk buy an NASL franchise?? He has no stadium, and if he is going to build a stadium for NASL, why not build the MLS stadium straight away. He can afford the franchise fee and has done enough market research to convince himself that the team is viable.

I thought there was a stadium inside Ottawa that could welcome a soccer team

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