U17 Women's World Cup: September 5-25, Trinidad and Tobago

[Unnamed Trialist]

Whatever you say, the team stank. It was terrible to watch, whatever style you thought they were playing or excuse you want to make up. They were embarrassing, simple as that. We cannot play that way.

And yes, I have seen how Canada played at its best under Pellerud. I remember outstanding games, playing a "northern" style if you like but with pressure on the ball, criteria in the long passes, talent up front to do something with them, savvy, poaching, and tight at the back. Still not a style that will win big, because it won't. But okay, feasible, doable.

The U-17s were just a sad imitation of that, it was vulgar and demeaning and to use the style argument as an excuse in that case is absurd. We were outplayed in every game, I even said in game in the first match here that I though the Ghanas had won the 1st half on points. We won, but were pretty damn useless. So don't give me this spin about who we are and what we can do, we can do a hell of a lot better than that. The team was atrociously coached.

[The Ref]

^ Agree with you one hundred percent Unnamed Trialist!

[18 Yards]

Thruball...outstanding post. You are in the loop of the looping Cnadain system fueled by the even looper provincial programs and coaches.

Would not even try to say your post any better. Time for those who believe and want to support the teams, to wake up and smell what the rest of the world is cooking.

[Vic]

Jeffrey, were we as atrociously coached as when we eliminated the Americans? We played the South American, European and African finalists. 1-0, 0-1 and 0-2. How bad is that and how much better can we do? Beating 2/3 other continent's strongest teams instead of 1/3? We went toe to toe with Ireland in every statistic and they played a dead even game with Japan who are in the final.

We also played a lot of good soccer long before Pellerud or even Turnbull. Pretty much word for word the way you describe it so it's neither's invention. Pellerud applied Norwegian professionalism to it and replaced the aggression with fitness but we always played a similar brand. That was a function of our relative size with our neighbour and hockey imprinting.

If I am a right-back or striker and I stink the joint out - I stink the joint out. Not the system I'm in. 4-4-2, 3-5-2, 4-5-1, 4-4-2, WM, Dutch, Scottish, whatever. Strikers score and defenders defend. Great players bubble above coaching, tactics and teammates. And when players continually don't succeed individually, constantly looking to the sideline for failure is a little too simplistic.

It may be vulgar, demeaning and atrocious too, but watching Inter Milan win the Champions League was as much a wall to wall pukefest. Coaching is chess, period.

I look forward to the day we produce players, coaches and teams capable of defeating a group of continental finalists and playing an entertaining brand of the game that delights aficionados. It's a great dream but I'm wondering how a country that doesn't provide a domestic solution for developing professional players is to accomplish it.

[The Ref]

We also played a lot of good soccer long before Pellerud or even Turnbull.

That is certainly not what I heard.

(bold is mine)

[Vic]

Sure we did Ref, but the word good is relative. No one in the world played intelligently in the early days. But we were good enough to have a couple of good stretches beginning right back in the 80s when the program was born and we beat the Americans in their own backyard. If only someone had tape of those games...

[P.O.S.P.]

Just curious on what grounds you make the claim? Do you find it unusual that the most populous area in the country has the strongest league and develops the strongest players? Is that not reasonable? Soccer in the GTA is ultra-competitive with clubs and individuals who amp each other up above and beyond what you see in most areas in Canada. There are U8 teams who play 7 days a week and U11 teams that can drop $1000 in field time in a weekend without a dent in their budget. I'm not sure that the long-term adult performance ratio and metrics are linear, but at the younger ages they certainly are a level above in terms of commitment and intensity. And that comes from someone outside the GTA.

Ontario dominated national All-Stars at girls U14 and U16 with both teams going undefeated. The U14s goals were 15-1 and the U16s were 13-0. Each team won as many games as every other team in their five-group A pool combined.

No one will ever know for sure, but it is at least highly likely that the best players were on the field.

A larger population usually does lead to larger registration numbers and more players at all spectrums under the bell curve. That being said, Ontario was statistically over-represented on this team based on population. I have a tough time accepting that there were only three or four players west of London who were considered good enough when the population figures say it should have been twice that. Not to be too confrontational, but Quebec has also fared quite well at national competitions and only managed to field three players in T&T... Were the 'best' players on the field? The numbers don't support that argument... neither do the results. Holding some of the best teams in the world to a low scoring loss is not cause for celebration... unless that's all we should ever expect.

[kj52]

The real issue here is what kind of training players are receiving where they play the vast bulk of their soccer, namely their home clubs. That's what makes players; Provincial all-stars and NTC are not teams, they primarily function as identification opportunities. Unfortunately the coaches who run them act like they are in competition for the players for their "team" and it's not all that rare for the player to play for a better coach at her club than she gets at these "select" training venues. To put it into perspective, I was chatting to a German acquaintance the other day at work and asked him what he thought of the German girl's performance at the U17 world cup. His response - "you're joking - they don't have a world cup for U17 girls do they, what's the point of that?" I tend to agree, I think it's too young. As soon as you have something that big, winning the tournament becomes the main object - never mind working on developing players. The tendency seems to be to lock onto a group of players believing they are the best in the country. That is a recipe for failure as far as I'm concerned and from talking to a couple of very highly qualified individuals I'm not alone in that. If anybody from this team ever plays for the full senior side I would be surprised. Even if you have a very talented group you would be lucky to eventually bring anymore than a couple at best. Seems like a lot of energy expended for little gain to me. Outside of coaches and the parents of the players of this team, this forum probably provides a pretty large part of the population who would even bother arguing about it.

[kj52]

Check out this article from last year regarding the US U17 team.

http://goal.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/18/us-womens-coach-pleads-for-better-skilled-players/

[Vic]

I have a tough time accepting that there were only three or four players west of London who were considered good enough when the population figures say it should have been twice that. Not to be too confrontational, but Quebec has also fared quite well at national competitions and only managed to field three players in T&T... Were the 'best' players on the field? The numbers don't support that argument...

What do the numbers have to do with it? It's about the best players, not a mathematical representation of the country. Ontario dominated at U16 nationals. 13 goals for and 0 against. Quebec was 4 for and 7 against. Ontario beat them 5-0. If you are going to denigrate someone's professionalism and accuse them of fraudulent behaviour with our national team, I would think you would want to present a better argument.

[Vic]

His response - "you're joking - they don't have a world cup for U17 girls do they, what's the point of that?" I tend to agree, I think it's too young. As soon as you have something that big, winning the tournament becomes the main object - never mind working on developing players. The tendency seems to be to lock onto a group of players believing they are the best in the country.

And those cripples and God's freaks. Can you believe they have a Special Olympics? And those homeless guys too, I can't believe they have one either. After all, only healthy men should be allowed to compete at u17.

There's rarely a day that goes by I'm not reminded why women are better off branching out and running their own programs. We're 30 years in with a ranking 75 points above our men and they're still an afterthought. You cannot push excellence in an environment like that.

A couple of other Germans from Port of Spain yesterday:

FIFA President Joseph S. Blatter

Football can liberate women; it is not just a macho thing anymore. I said in 1995 that the future of football is feminine and I still believe that.

Chairman of the Organising Committee Franz Beckenbauer

I have become more and more interested in women’s football and the standard over just the last two years has improved immensely. Women’s football is getting better all the time.

http://www.fifa.com/u17womensworldcup/news/newsid=1307097.html

[paul-collins]

And those cripples and God's freaks. Can you believe they have a Special Olympics? And those homeless guys too, I can't believe they have one either. After all, only healthy men should be allowed to compete at u17.

Vic, I don't think it was the "girls" thing the German commentator was talking about, it was the U17 part. Certainly that's how kj52's post reads to me.

I thought LTAD generally identified soccer (like hockey) as a "late development" sport? I was just checking the LTAD writeups and girls are identified as "Train to Compete" from 15 to 19, a full year ahead of the boys - and we've had female posters on here talk about ladies maturing into competition later than men (and having longer competitive careers).

[P.O.S.P.]

What do the numbers have to do with it? It's about the best players, not a mathematical representation of the country. Ontario dominated at U16 nationals. 13 goals for and 0 against. Quebec was 4 for and 7 against. Ontario beat them 5-0. If you are going to denigrate someone's professionalism and accuse them of fraudulent behaviour with our national team, I would think you would want to present a better argument.

Strong words Vic... and not my intention. You seem quite upset that someone would question your logic (which is what I was doing). If you are only concerned with all-stars competition results to support your argument then perhaps you should be looking at the most appropriate competition results - the 2009 tournament (the one that fielded the best '93s and exceptional '94s), not the 2010 tournament. In the tourney that actually mattered to the selection of this team, Quebec was at the top of the table, undefeated. Ontario finished at 2-1-1. Good enough for second, but not the powerhouse you are trying to portray them as.

Is this argument acceptable to you?

[Vic]

Yes that does make them much stronger than I thought they were. Now there is at least some meat on the bone. And I'm glad, love the Quebec soccer, always have. Perhaps I have misread you. I just read back through things and noticed you are reasonable and the only issue I have is with a casual insinuating toss of a very serious allegation. I was catching up on things and mistakenly logged you in with a few others of less gray matter who've been fanning the flames to incite their older and deeper issues and agendas.

Thanks for the correction on the birth years. I've been there too and posted similar geometrics in the past myself. I used to think there was an East/West bias and each took turns overcompensating their rosters in reply and response to the previous iteration on the other side of the country that did the same. But I've since gained a lot more respect for the professionalism of the people involved. They're driven to succeed more than anyone, that's how the got their jobs and what they commit their lives too, and I can't see them putting their whims and personal wishes ahead of their job and cheating the country, which is the accusation.

There are 15 players in the age pool who have signed letters of intent to NCAA scholarships in the next two years. 10 are from Ontario, 2 from Quebec, 2 from BC and one from Alberta. It appears the Americans scouts and their investment wallets have a preference for Ontarians at this age too.

Our U20 team also had the exact same number of players from West of London and a reverse mathematical double-dose of Quebec players per population.

Unless our goal is political correctness areas will always be over and under-represented and I don't see much here worthy of assaulting someone's reputation.

[Vic]

Paul if that was the case he would have said "you're joking - they don't have a u17 world cup do they" and not "you're joking - they don't have a world cup for U17 girls do they"

Yes, young women hit elite playing levels a little before young men and their careers are much shorter as well. It's a result of many things - the level of professionalization, ability to support yourself financially, Motherhood, etc. Vis a vis the men's game, and in terms of their ability to graduate to the senior stage, U17 women's world cup is probably the equivalent of a U19 men's.

[paul-collins]

Paul if that was the case he would have said "you're joking - they don't have a u17 world cup do they" and not "you're joking - they don't have a world cup for U17 girls do they"

kj's response to the "you're kidding" post was "I tend to agree, I think it's too young. As soon as you have something that big, winning the tournament becomes the main object - never mind working on developing players." I choose to read the entire post on this basis, YMMV.

As to the age of competition etc I'm more thinking about physiology and mental ability than I am about external factors (level of professionalization, motherhood timing etc) but I take your point. It's a delicate balance we are trying to strike...

[The Ref]

Korea great winner of the U17 FIFA world cup. Pity that the cup cannot be shared between Korea and Japan. Both teams were outstanding. Congratulation to the coaches. Entertaining game, extra time and PKs to watch.

[Vic]

Imagine taking 37 shots on goal and losing a game!

[ThruBall]

Yes that does make them much stronger than I thought they were. Now there is at least some meat on the bone. And I'm glad, love the Quebec soccer, always have. Perhaps I have misread you. I just read back through things and noticed you are reasonable and the only issue I have is with a casual insinuating toss of a very serious allegation. I was catching up on things and mistakenly logged you in with a few others of less gray matter who've been fanning the flames to incite their older and deeper issues and agendas.

Thanks for the correction on the birth years. I've been there too and posted similar geometrics in the past myself. I used to think there was an East/West bias and each took turns overcompensating their rosters in reply and response to the previous iteration on the other side of the country that did the same. But I've since gained a lot more respect for the professionalism of the people involved. They're driven to succeed more than anyone, that's how the got their jobs and what they commit their lives too, and I can't see them putting their whims and personal wishes ahead of their job and cheating the country, which is the accusation.

If you are familiar with BR's background and qualification for his posting at the OSA I think many would be interested! It's well known that Jim Cannovan hired him however his arrival on the scene ata the OSA after his playing days were up is not known.

There are 15 players in the age pool who have signed letters of intent to NCAA scholarships in the next two years. 10 are from Ontario, 2 from Quebec, 2 from BC and one from Alberta. It appears the Americans scouts and their investment wallets have a preference for Ontarians at this age too.

The number of committments to US Colleges by players on the U17WC roster is currently 7; all from the 93 class, 5 from Ontario, 1 from BC and 1 from QC. The total player pool committment so far is 16; 14 from the 93 class and 2 from the 94 class; 9 players who have recieved a nod by College coaches were not included by BR. Of those nine players, 0 are members of the Provincial Programs in Ontario. I'm not clear on players status from Outside of Ontario however in BR's quote prior to the tournament he stated all of his selection came from with in the Provincial Development Program......Now why does he half to say that? What differance should it make....they are all Canadians and learned their skills here in Canada!

You can follow the player committments on this link below.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=te2GVkHQTlqYnSB2pMfsjsQ&output=html&gid=0

Our U20 team also had the exact same number of players from West of London and a reverse mathematical double-dose of Quebec players per population.

CM has designed a scouting program that exists outside of the Provincial Programs. She has representatives working with in the East, Central and West to ID players. Once these players have been ID they are watched by CM's coaching staff. If in agreement, they were invited to the West Coast ID camp and the East (held in Vaughan) ID Camp. She also included players from the Provincial Programs who were handled in the same manor.

In CM's Press she always mentions the Provincial Programs as a source for where the player is developed. However there are many other places mentioned as well......make pefect sense to me.

Unless our goal is political correctness areas will always be over and under-represented and I don't see much here worthy of assaulting someone's reputation.

Political nonsense is exactly what many posters have been speaking to. It's silly and rediculous what is happening to the Canadian game. What is abundantly clear is that BR is lacking in skill and his perfomances speak for themselves. Evolving the staff at the OSA needs to happen. Without a change we can expect more of the same from Ontario.