Stick a Fork in Mo, He's Long Past Done

[powerof11]

Jeremy Loome looks at the mark Mo Johnston has left on Toronto FC, and why, he perhaps...has overstayed his welcome:

http://www.rednationonline.ca/Stick_a_Fork_in_Mo_Hes_Long_Past_Done_mar_16_10_column.shtml

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

All based on a false premise that Mo is the one calling the shots, in my opinion. Preki clearly is. The most active posters on the RPB board where Jeremy Loome tends to post appear to finally be grasping that now with the latest news about Ali Gerba. A new coach has come in who is intent on a major rebuild to facilitate a different style of play. It should not be surprising that that has led to a series of high profile departures and also given the complexities of MLS signing and roster regulations that their replacements would be slow to arrive. Beyond that it tends to be the most anglocentric TFC fans that are getting worked up about the departure of Carl Robinson. The franchise is moving in a new direction and being from the UK and being good at PR doesn't count for very much now that a Serbian with an old school mentality is making the key player personnel decisions.

[Havoc88]

All based on a false premise that Mo is the one calling the shots, in my opinion. Preki clearly is.

So if Preki is calling the shots, why would we keep Mo around when the track record shown indicates everything he's touched has been a disaster?

[finchster]

If TFC doesn't make the playoffs this year, Mo is done and rightfully so. Even if Preki is calling most of the shots, Mo still has input and it is still his team. We will see how this turns out but Mo's job should be on the line

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The team missed the playoffs by one point last season and only trailed the Supporters Shield winner by 10 points. Hardly a disaster. The reason to still keep him around is if a highly credible MLS coach such as Preki is comfortable working with him and the powers that be at MLSE can see that he is good at working the phones behind the scenes where trades and trials are concerned. If things go badly this season and there is a need to appease the fan base by firing somebody he is more likely to be the fall guy than Preki and will probably very much deserve to be if the root cause of the problems is the large guaranteed contracts Gerba, Garcia, Robinson and Barrett have for this season.

[Havoc88]

I wasn't talking about the team as a whole, but Mo specifically. If you think the signing/trade of Gerba and Garcia helped the team "miss the team by only one point" and to you that is not a bad thing, so be it. I for one do not subscribe to the line of thinking that our position in the table and the so called parity in the league is an excuse for what has gone on to keep going on. Bottom line, TFC were terrible last season and the moves made over the last three years have clearly damaged the team.

If you see positives in keeping him around, that is cool but IMO I think the cons far outweigh the pros.

[Guest Ed]

The team missed the playoffs by one point last season and only trailed the Supporters Shield winner by 10 points. Hardly a disaster. The reason to still keep him around is if a highly credible MLS coach such as Preki is comfortable working with him and the powers that be at MLSE can see that he is good at working the phones behind the scenes where trades and trials are concerned. If things go badly this season and there is a need to appease the fan base by firing somebody he is more likely to be the fall guy than Preki and will probably very much deserve to be if the root cause of the problems is the large guaranteed contracts Gerba, Garcia, Robinson and Barrett have for this season.

No squinting from you with your rose-coloured glasses. Johnson doesn't have a clue about Canadian talent or lack of and was taken to the cleaners too many times by a certain Cdn agent.

That aside, TFC has suffered thru the ignorance of two men who never coached professionally in their lives and it showed big time. I hope Preki is not done. Some serious shake up is still needed with that team.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I'd appreciated it if you responded only to what I have actually written in future, Havoc88, rather than building strawman arguments. Given I have suggested repeatedly that the Gerba/Garcia trade could lead to Mo Johnston being fired later this season it is bizarre to say the least to suggest that I would think that helped the team in a positive way to miss the playoffs by only one point. Last season's overall level of performance was not a "disaster" because other more positive moves such as trading Julius James for Dwayne DeRosario have also been made over the last three seasons. RBNY's overall performance in 2009 would better fit that kind of description, which is why they have a new GM as well as a new coach this season. As for Ed and his "rose-coloured glasses" he clearly didn't read all the way through to the last sentence of the text he quoted before hitting reply.

[Havoc88]

My point was simply that you seem to think missing the playoffs or his performance have not been a disaster (note not "complete disaster" ah nevermind I see the edit). I disagree. Not sure how that is strawman - the Gerba/Garcia comment was being facetious and my stance obviously doesn't depend on it.

Your points about why he should stay on are purely speculative (good working the phones??) and aren't backed up by any evidence. Where there is plenty of evidence pointing to the fact he has dropped the ball several times on contracts and signings that have now left TFC knee-deep in the $hit.

[TheKottonmouthed1555362307]

Mo needs to go, the only thing he can do is Draft, maybe keep him on as a scout. He has proven building a team isn't his forte.

[ag futbol]

I was rather shocked that Mo made it past the end of last year.

Clearly, he spent last season like it was his last chance. TFC had loads of allocation dollars saved up and in terms of non-dp wages they had the most payroll in MLS, by at least a few hundred thousand dollars. Given that all this extra money, we couldn't even make the playoffs. It just speaks to the inefficient use of resources and how Johnston will never take us anywhere significant.

Funny how the early excuses about grass and Canadians are now long forgotten. If those ideas were floated in any other MLS market, he would have been canned. Imagine if Steve Nicol came out and complained about the turf. He'd be on his ass by the time he finished his sentence.

Credit to MLSE, they've done the right "business" things with TFC, but they are a fish out of water trying to figure out the mechanics of professional soccer. They should have consulted with someone externally to see if Johnston passed the smell test. Right now, he could tell them basically anything and they'd have to buy it as they have nobody who's a credible opinion to refute it.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Your points about why he should stay on are purely speculative (good working the phones??) and aren't backed up by any evidence. Where there is plenty of evidence pointing to the fact he has dropped the ball several times on contracts and signings that have now left TFC knee-deep in the $hit.

Did you bother to read all the way through to the last sentence? Why on earth would you feel the need to argue with me over whether he has dropped the ball several times on contracts after reading the following:-

If things go badly this season and there is a need to appease the fan base by firing somebody he is more likely to be the fall guy than Preki and will probably very much deserve to be if the root cause of the problems is the large guaranteed contracts Gerba, Garcia, Robinson and Barrett have for this season.

What I provided you with was an explanation as to why he was probably kept around from MLSE's standpoint because you framed your original question to me in a manner that invited that kind of answer based on the phrase "...why would we...?". As stated previously if you want to discuss something with me in future, stick to what I have actually written rather than building a strawman.

[Trillium]

I was rather shocked that Mo made it past the end of last year.

Clearly, he spent last season like it was his last chance. TFC had loads of allocation dollars saved up and in terms of non-dp wages they had the most payroll in MLS, by at least a few hundred thousand dollars. Given that all this extra money, we couldn't even make the playoffs. It just speaks to the inefficient use of resources and how Johnston will never take us anywhere significant.

Funny how the early excuses about grass and Canadians are now long forgotten. If those ideas were floated in any other MLS market, he would have been canned. Imagine if Steve Nicol came out and complained about the turf. He'd be on his ass by the time he finished his sentence.

Credit to MLSE, they've done the right "business" things with TFC, but they are a fish out of water trying to figure out the mechanics of professional soccer. They should have consulted with someone externally to see if Johnston passed the smell test. Right now, he could tell them basically anything and they'd have to buy it as they have nobody who's a credible opinion to refute it.

I am a bit confused are there any st reet corners in Toronto .. just go and ask ten people .. hell ask ten homeless people .. does Mo know or not.

Surely MLSE can figure out he is a putz by now.

[TheKottonmouthed1555362307]

Did you bother to read all the way through to the last sentence? Why on earth would you feel the need to argue with me over whether he has dropped the ball several times on contracts after reading the following:-

If things go badly this season and there is a need to appease the fan base by firing somebody he is more likely to be the fall guy than Preki and will probably very much deserve to be if the root cause of the problems is the large guaranteed contracts Gerba, Garcia, Robinson and Barrett have for this season.

What I provided you with was an explanation as to why he was probably kept around from MLSE's standpoint because you framed your original question to me in a manner that invited that kind of answer based on the phrase "...why would we...?". As stated previously if you want to discuss something with me in future, stick to what I have actually written rather than building a strawman.

If your suggesting that the MLSE has kept MoJo around just as a scapegoat for the eventual 4th miss of the post-season. That seems like a self destructive thought process, I don't think we need to see TFC to miss the playoffs again to realize the guaranteed contracts to the aforementioned players were devastating mistakes that should cost any GM his job if they follow with these sort of results on the pitch. They don't need to keep Mo around an extra year just to let Preki stay safe from media scrutiny over the year; as even with Mo out of the picture now you could keep blaming Mo for this season as the contracts Preki has inherited are of Mo's doing.

I personally feel keeping Mo for another year is essentially the exact same thing the Leafs did with Fletcher and the Jays with Gaston. Keeping guys around for an extra year knowing they are on their way out is just unnecessarily prolonging an already enduring re-build (for TFC it could still be looked as just building) process.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I did not suggest that MLSE kept Mo around as a scapegoat. This is another attempt to build a strawman.

[Grizzly]

All based on a false premise that Mo is the one calling the shots, in my opinion. Preki clearly is.

Well since we are on the topic of strawmen, I don't think there is a more blatant or poorly conceived strawman on this thread than yours above. This is an article that mostly talks about 3 years of mistakes and poor decisions made by Mo when he was obviously calling the shots because Preki was coaching another team. Whether Preki is calling the shots now or not is mostly immaterial to the point of the article which is the team is in the current poor state do to mismanagement by Mo.

[TheKottonmouthed1555362307]

Well since we are on the topic of strawmen, I don't think there is a more blatant or poorly conceived strawman on this thread than yours above. This is an article that mostly talks about 3 years of mistakes and poor decisions made by Mo when he was obviously calling the shots because Preki was coaching another team. Whether Preki is calling the shots now or not is mostly immaterial to the point of the article which is the team is in the current poor state do to mismanagement by Mo.

Thank you, BBTB's whole argument is a straw man. a Rhetorical Fallacy. Yes, Preki is in charge now and if he is why keep Mo on the payroll?? It's self mutilation. No reason to keep Mo at a higher position than Preki. If Preki is calling the shots. Keeping Mo on makes zero sense from any stand point. Like what's his job now if Preki has basically taken his player personal decisions away?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Hence Jeremy Loome's whinging about recent high profile player departures and the lack of signed players right now with the clear implication being that Mo Johnston is the main reason for those things happening? Garth Wheeler's recent article about Adrian Serioux's departure made it obvious that Mo Johnston's departure wouldn't make much difference to what happens on player personnel decisions right now if Preki were to stay so his basic premise that Mo leaving is the key to turning things around is fundamentally flawed. Beyond that I'm actually not particularly concerned by what's happening at the moment for the reasons articulated by Paul James in this blog entry:-

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/james-on-soccer/tfcs-culture-change-a-good-sign-of-things-to-come/article1501951/

I can live with a bit of short term pain as long as it leads to long term gain. My only regret is that a coach like Preki didn't arrive prior to the 2009 season when the first round draft picks, salary cap space and allocation money was in place for a relatively painless rebuild. The ironic thing about who is doing most complaining right now on the TFC messageboards is that it tends to be people who were very much in the "In Carver We Trust" camp at the end of the 2008 season.

As for TheKottonmouthed's post it's getting beyond ridiculous that people feel a need to ask me questions which obviously should be addressed to somebody like Tom Anselmi even after I have repeatedly stated that I suspect that the Gerba/Garcia trade will be what ultimately leads to the end of Mo's time with TFC. It shouldn't take a genius to figure out that Mo Johnston's departure wouldn't bother me in the least. What I have argued against in this thread is the notion that it would make the pivotal difference that was implied by Jeremy Loome in the concluding paragraph of his blog entry with the phrase "save us from this wreck by firing Mo Johnston".

[Grizzly]

Hence Jeremy Loome's whinging about recent high profile player departures and the lack of signed players right now with the clear implication being that Mo Johnston is the main reason for those things happening?

How can anyone with a semblence of logic not see that Mo Johnston is 100% the main reason that these things are happening? If Mo hadn't mismanaged TFC for 3 years there would be no need for a rebuilding process. Even if Preki is making 100% of the decisions now, everything he does is still Mo's responsibility since he was the one who hired him. I suspect that Mo is a lot more involved in these decisions than people are assuming because they have his signature all over them: entering a season with an undersized squad (Mo apparently thinks that points at the beginning of the season count for less than at the end), continually trialing various players many of whom are using the trial to up their offer from other clubs, others who are obviously well below the standard required and shouldn't be trialed at all, randomly dumping players when they don't fit into the mold instead of trying to use them in a way that maximizes their abilities and limits their flaws yet other players seem to remain despite poor performances and attitude, complete disrespect for those players who have given their all and performed well for the club in the past. I could go on and on with this list.

If the character and attitude of TFC need to change then I think it is patently clear the baddest seed of all lies at the top. Here is a guy who has continually been arrogant, never taken any responsibility for his actions, disrespected the fans, disrespected the players, etc. Mo is a very negative force in this club and a complete incompetent. This was apparent from the first season and he has shown no improvement.

Regarding Preki, I have said all along he was a very risky hire despite the constant talk about how great he is. Like usual Mo has hired one of his friends and one wonders what other candidates may have been available but were ignored. Preki is extremely inexperienced as a coach and his accomplishments to date are mediocre at best. It was Bradley who turned around Chivas not Preki. Preki inherited a team that rose sharply from poor to mediocre and pretty much stayed mediocre for the next three years under him. He has no history of taking over a poor club like TFC and turning it around. Maybe he will live up to the hype and do a good job in the end. However, at the moment he appears to be involved in a process of removing without adding including removing some of the team's better players from last year and in the case of Robinson still having to pay most of his salary. By this point in training camp I think everyone expected to see a lot better players with the team than we have seen so far. If the Impact can sign guys like Billy and Pastel one would think an MLS team would be able to do likewise. Even Hemming would be a good addition to TFC.

Personally as an Impact fan I would love to see Mo named TFC manager for life. On an objective basis though it is hard to understand how this guy has kept his job so long and still continues to do so. The jury on Preki is out at the moment but the first impressions are not good. One can preach patience all one wants but certainly in the past history of TFC when things appeared to stink before the season they continued to stink during the season. We will have to wait and see if the trend continues but if I were a TFC fan I would be damned worried at the moment and furious that Mo hasn't been made to take responsibility for his poor performance in his job and fired lonhg before the start of this season. Whether Preki should stay or not remains to be seen but Loome is right that the cancer of the team needs to be removed and that cancer is Mo. That being said I am more than happy if the cancer is not removed and becomes malignant!

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

How can anyone with a semblence of logic not see that Mo Johnston is 100% the main reason that these things are happening? If Mo hadn't mismanaged TFC for 3 years there would be no need for a rebuilding process.

This is getting a bit bizarre now. Why would anyone write that in reply to one of my messages when I have already written the following in this thread:-

If things go badly this season and there is a need to appease the fan base by firing somebody he is more likely to be the fall guy than Preki and will probably very much deserve to be if the root cause of the problems is the large guaranteed contracts Gerba, Garcia, Robinson and Barrett have for this season.

and the following in another yesterday:-

That was only for part of last season. It could easily turn out to be 300k for the full season this year. The Gerba/Garcia trade with San Jose could be what winds up ending Mo Johnston's TFC career. Between them they could make 500k for doing not very much this summer out of a salary cap that is unlikely to be much more than 2.5 mill.

making it clear to anyone actually reading my posts that I am well aware that there is a potential issue this season based on several guaranteed contracts handed out in previous seasons for more money than the players concerned appear to be worth at this point and that I think Mo Johnston could easily lose his job over it and will probably deserve to do so when/if it happens?

Jeremy Loome's concluding paragraph was the following:-

Anselmi, for the love of all that's good and decent in football, save us from this wreck by firing Mo Johnston. He's had every shot. He's blown every shot. Even the excellent propsect of signing Ismael Said just isn't enough anymore.

Mo must go.

The notion I challenged was that getting rid of Mo would make a pivotal difference to what is happening in the here and now as implied by the phrase "save us from this wreck by firing Mo Johnston" if as there is strong reason to believe the key player personnel decisions have already been handed over to Preki to a far larger extent than was the case with Cummins and Carver who were less familiar with the league and therefore needed a far greater level of assistance from Mo Johnston. I have no huge problem with Robinson and Serioux leaving TFC (I was actually glad to see the back of the former if truth be told and can't see the cause for panic with JDG and Cronin both available) or with Gerba being sent home from Charleston and see things pretty much the same way as Paul James does right now who unlike Jeremy Loome doesn't seem to view those three recent developments as some kind of disaster. There is no point judging the roster for the upcoming season and hence the quality of Preki's rebuilding job until additional players have been added to fill the vacant roster spots and until we finally get to see Jacob Peterson and Ty Harden playing for TFC in MLS action.

[Havoc88]

Did you bother to read all the way through to the last sentence? Why on earth would you feel the need to argue with me over whether he has dropped the ball several times on contracts after reading the following:-

If things go badly this season and there is a need to appease the fan base by firing somebody he is more likely to be the fall guy than Preki and will probably very much deserve to be if the root cause of the problems is the large guaranteed contracts Gerba, Garcia, Robinson and Barrett have for this season.

What I provided you with was an explanation as to why he was probably kept around from MLSE's standpoint because you framed your original question to me in a manner that invited that kind of answer based on the phrase "...why would we...?". As stated previously if you want to discuss something with me in future, stick to what I have actually written rather than building a strawman.

Hey man, there's no need to get all bent out of shape. If you read my posts, you would see my point is that IMO we've seen enough - we don't have to wait until things go badly this season, we've already had three. Again, you don't think last year was a 'disaster' - I disagree and think it was.

Sorry but there was nothing strawman about me stating the reasons you thought Mo might be staying on. You think MLSE might be keeping him around is because he gets along with the coach, works the phones and can bring in trialists. I'm simply saying there are a litany of things he has done that far outweigh all of those and there is no need to wait until we have a poor season to come to the conclusion he should get his pink slip.

[jpg75]

^ Well said, straight and to the point.

For those who don't think Mo has been a disaster let me ask you this: How many CCL victories does Toronto FC have in the 2 seasons we've been eligible?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

If all you wanted to do was state that opinion Havoc88 you could easily have done so without trying to drag me into an argument based on a bizarre misinterpretation of my post. There now appears to be yet another poster who is eager to pick some sort of fight about Mo Johnston. If he wants to have an argument along those lines he should probably try to find someone who hasn't repeatedly stated that he could easily wind up being sacked this season and will probably deserve it if/when it happens. I have better things to do with my time than debating the semantics of the word "disaster". Over and out for this thread.

[AvroArrow]

If all you wanted to do was state that opinion Havoc88 you could easily have done so without trying to drag me into an argument based on a bizarre misinterpretation of my post. There now appears to be yet another poster who is eager to pick some sort of fight about Mo Johnston. If he wants to have an argument along those lines he should probably try to find someone who hasn't repeatedly stated that he could easily wind up being sacked this season and will probably deserve it if/when it happens. I have better things to do with my time than debating the semantics of the word "disaster". Over and out for this thread.

My goodness man, stop assuming that everytime someone disagrees with you that it is a personal attack or an affront to your intelligence. Welcome to the internet.

[TheKottonmouthed1555362307]

My goodness man, stop assuming that everytime someone disagrees with you that it is a personal attack or an affront to your intelligence. Welcome to the internet.

yeah, no kidding it's like he believes people have a vendetta on him and his opinion. When usually people are just trying to extract more dialogue out of him or discuss his points objectively. I think we all want the same thing and that's a competitive TFC in the MLS and we've seen 3 seasons of disappointment and every year it's the same excuses. When is he gonna run out of room; as I see it now, He's gone through 4 coaches in less than 4 seasons. Something tells me the coaches aren't the problem except the first one who then installed the coaches after him.

The blame is all on Mo now as I see it their is no more excuses left for losing. I can't see him finishing the year; which to me is obvious, so why not just move him out now before the inevitable.