Thomas Niendorf leaves Caps

[Guest Ed]

^ All I have to say is good luck to the Caps with their new TD. The vision Niendorf had for the residency program was no longer supported by Caps management. To come on here and disparage Niendorf is a bit out of line. His ability to find and develop talent doesn't take a back seat to anyone, as pretentious as that may sound.

[jpg75]

Not really.

I realize that there is probably nowhere better to hire a TD out of than the Netherlands, but he's essentially TD at a tier two club with tier two and lower resume. Good enough for me, personally, I mean, it's very likely a good hiring, but it's not as if it's someone who blows Neindorf out of the water.

Hmmm, upon further investigation you have a good point Marc. Looking at the talent coming out of Sparta and the talent coming from Feyenoord i don't think this Dutch guy did much of a job stealing talent from Feyenoord. It just happens that there's good talent in that part of the world.

Look at the local players at Feyenoord with Sr. team appearances and Dutch youth caps: Fer, Wijnaldum, deVrij, Van Haaren, Leerdam, Schenkeveld, Castaignos, Cabral, Martins Indi, Mulder.(10)

Now the local players at Sparta with Sr. team and Dutch youth caps: Strootman, Godee, John, deRoon. (4)

Feyenoord also has players like Clasie (on loan at Excelsior) and Eekman on the Dutch U19 team who have not debuted for the Sr. Feyenoord team.

Of the Sparta players i named Joshua John joined the academy in 06/07 and played 1 year before joining the Sr. Sparta squad, Joey Godee joined the youth team in 07/08 from Ajax and spent 1 year before joining the Sr. Sparta squad, Strootman joined in 07/08 from Rijsoord where he'd already been spotted for the Dutch U18 squad and joined the academy for - you guessed it - 1 year before joining the Sr. Sparta squad. If people criticized Thomas Neindorf for being a recruiter, this guy has him beat hands down.

edit: I'll give him a little more credit; Nick Viergever and Erik Falkenburg who were sold to AZ Alkmaar this summer. Viergever is an 89 who joined the Sparta 1st team in 08/09 so he spent a few years with Grootscholten in the Academy. Falkenburg is an 88 who joined the 1st team in 07/08.

[SthMelbRed]

^ All I have to say is good luck to the Caps with their new TD. The vision Niendorf had for the residency program was no longer supported by Caps management. To come on here and disparage Niendorf is a bit out of line. His ability to find and develop talent doesn't take a back seat to anyone, as pretentious as that may sound.

Has anybody actually disparaged Niendorf on here? There is a big difference between not subscribing to the theory that parting ways with Niendorf means the end of the 'Caps residency program as an effective development tool and dismissing Niendorf, his accomplishments, or his quality as a coach. If you actually look at his resume, it is not necessarily more extensive or impressive than the new guy's, or even Teitur's. As some have alluded to above, Niendorf leaving the 'Caps could actually turn out to be good for Canadian football, as it's allowed the 'Caps to recruit a quality guy from abroad to come into the overall Canadian development system while Niendorf is now free to shop his skills to another employer (whether that be Montreal, TFC, FCE, or another new club that might come up in the future).

This hiring does somewhat vindicate the position of those of us who didn't automatically assume that the 'Caps were going to turn to an 'old boy' dinosaur and condemn their residency kids to a future as long-ball merchants playing kick and rush football.

[Jason]

I see that Niendorf has ended up back in Calgary with the Chinooks club. Not sure if that has been mentioned around here but thought I'd mention it.

Jason

[Macksam]

Has anybody actually disparaged Niendorf on here? There is a big difference between not subscribing to the theory that parting ways with Niendorf means the end of the 'Caps residency program as an effective development tool and dismissing Niendorf, his accomplishments, or his quality as a coach. If you actually look at his resume, it is not necessarily more extensive or impressive than the new guy's, or even Teitur's. As some have alluded to above, Niendorf leaving the 'Caps could actually turn out to be good for Canadian football, as it's allowed the 'Caps to recruit a quality guy from abroad to come into the overall Canadian development system while Niendorf is now free to shop his skills to another employer (whether that be Montreal, TFC, FCE, or another new club that might come up in the future).

This hiring does somewhat vindicate the position of those of us who didn't automatically assume that the 'Caps were going to turn to an 'old boy' dinosaur and condemn their residency kids to a future as long-ball merchants playing kick and rush football.

Yeah, if Ed was referring to me when he posted that, you make a good point. I never once disparged Niendorf.

[snake]

I see that Niendorf has ended up back in Calgary with the Chinooks club. Not sure if that has been mentioned around here but thought I'd mention it.

Jason

really

[Guest Ed]

Yeah, if Ed was referring to me when he posted that, you make a good point. I never once disparged Niendorf.

You sure as hell did when you called a Dutch 2nd division youth coach 'someone better'.

[jpg75]

Calling him a 2nd Division youth coach isn't exactly fair, Sparta were only recently relegated and spent most of his tenure in the Eredivisie. Now, the fact that they've been relegated has probably help pad his stats:

"Grootscholten's five-year tenure with Sparta resulted in the development of 17 academy players for the first team, with 12 of those youngsters moving up in the last two years."

That would tend to happen when you have an Eredivisie level Academy and the club now finds itself in the Eerste Divisie which has a huge drop off - more so then most Western European 2nd Divisions.

[SthMelbRed]

You sure as hell did when you called a Dutch 2nd division youth coach 'someone better'.

Once again, not to belittle what Niendorf did with the 'Caps residency during his time there, but what is the highest level that he's worked at in the past decade?

[Macksam]

You sure as hell did when you called a Dutch 2nd division youth coach 'someone better'.

No, mentioning someone is better than someone else is not disparging.

Cristiano Ronaldo is more consistent and better overall than Arjen Robben. Did I just do the same thing to Arjen Robben?

[Grizzly]

No, mentioning someone is better than someone else is not disparging.

Cristiano Ronaldo is more consistent and better overall than Arjen Robben. Did I just do the same thing to Arjen Robben?

Except that you have no clue whether Grootscholten is better than Niendorf. None of us do. It is difficult in the best of times to assess what impact a TD has on his players when in a club developmental system such as that in Holland. It is even more difficult to assess when the particular guy has had a very short tenure in his position (2 years as head youth coach, 2 years as TD) in a team located in one of Europe's top football nations. Then even if he is good at what he does in Holland that does not mean he will be able to produce the same results in the completely different environment he will find here.

On the face of it he seems to have a decent resume and may do well. If he does then it may be win-win since Niendorf seems like he will stick around in Canada and do what he always does anyway whether at a youth club or a professional club. Nevertheless, in Grootscholten we are not talking about a guy with a long history of producing top players wherever he has been. We are talking about a guy who has had a short career at an lower level first division team with a good academy. No one should be declaring his superiority to Niendorf until he starts producing the results that Niendorf has produced for a long time, often in less than ideal circumstances.

[Grizzly]

Once again, not to belittle what Niendorf did with the 'Caps residency during his time there, but what is the highest level that he's worked at in the past decade?

And what would that matter? Niendorf has an impressive record of finding and training good players from amateur clubs. Then when he ran the Caps academy he continued to produce good players some of whom have played at the highest levels. The only relevant issue is whether Niendorf can produce talent and run an Academy effectively and consistently in North America and he has shown that he can.

I begin to doubt more and more the claim coming from the Caps sources that he wanted to develop players for Europe and not the Caps. It doesn't make any sense although I can understand him wanting to have Europe as a possibility for players. I see a lot of change in philosophy recently in the new MLS Caps like the overpriced tickets and their push to kill the Canadian quota that I think are bad signs and steps in the wrong direction. I have a feeling that this new MLS attitude in the Caps may have had a lot to do with the split. Additionally, whenever I hear the criticisms of Niendorf (he is only a recruiter, he didn't really train so and so) it seems to be coming from the Canadian coaching establishment and in particular the BC coaches. Yet whenever I hear an interview with a former player of him they are always very positive about Niendorf. I think there is a lot of professional jealousy involved in the comments that get made about him.

[SthMelbRed]

^my question was specifically directed at Ed's indignation that somebody might suggest that a 'Dutch 2nd division youth coach' might be better than Niendorf. I fully respect what Niendorf achieved with the 'Caps residency during his time there. He's gone now, though, and the new guy has a resume that suggests that he can continue the good work that is going on there. As for your second paragraph, I'll decline to engage the baseless ramblings of somebody with no real knowledge of what he's commenting on. I don't know why Niendorf and the 'Caps parted ways and neither do you.

[Macksam]

Except that you have no clue whether Grootscholten is better than Niendorf. None of us do. It is difficult in the best of times to assess what impact a TD has on his players when in a club developmental system such as that in Holland.

Alright, I can agree with that.

[Free kick]

IN light of recent discussions regarding the fact that the Whitecap and their lack of Canadian content, I couldn't help thinking of this thread and some of the comments I had made and some of the responses i received. Well, whatever happened to those players whom they sent to Europe like REB, Gage and Orville? A lot of good that did, didn't it?

This academy has been around as long and if not longer than The TFC academy. While the TFC academy (categorized as joke by several) has graduated at least six players to the senior club who are all the same age as REB, Gage, and Orville, the none of these players are currently on the Whitecaps roster. Obviously something didn't work.

Here what I think:

1) this was not really setup as true club academy to begin with. It was setup more more like private academy. Not that different from the IMG stuff. TN operated it with his own best interests in mind and that meant that he was acting more as an agent rather than a director or coach working for a club whose development interests were more long term. Sending or selling players at that age to European clubs is BAD BAD BAD. It goes against what a club youth system is all about and pretty much makes you redundant. Your supposed to be developing players for the senior team and or sell them on the transfer market when their full maximum value is achieved. When you sell them before, that means your working for a commission and you are not fully interested in the full value of the transaction because the full value accrues to the club and not the the agent.

2). The Whitecaps need to get back to basics if haven't done so already. The TFC guys went to Europe to see how things are done. That mean developing and preparing talent for the long term and not short term commissions.

3) PDL. Get out of this league and don't have your teams involved in this setup. There is a Chicago Fire team in the PDL but i don't see any other MLS club with youth sides in this league. I have never seen a PDL game but all I need to know that it's is useless is the fact that there are 65 teams playing in the PDL and that's way too much. There arent that many major junior hockey teams. Meaning that the elite level talent is spread too thinly and you are not getting the best competition as a result. There are teams in Abbotsford and Victoria in this league but shouldn't the whitecaps be getting the top age level talent in BC to begin with.

If all MLS teams are recruiting the best age level talent, then what's does that leave for the PDL? The organization that developed Juan Agudelo (the New York Redbulls) does not have any youth teams in the PDL.

http://ussda.demosphere.com/teams/27484436/27484631-27484529/TEAM.html

http://www.redbullsacademy.com/academy/

The Sounders have an extensive youth setup but why aren't the Whitecaps teams playing in leagues against those sides? Maybe they cant, but if that is the case, then maybe they need to get into the CSL whereby they will compete against Montreal Impact academy and TFCA. Already, those two, from what I have heard, have grown a pretty intense rivalry and people have turned out for these games. Getting the best regional age level players into an elite group can only be good. There are something like eight PDL teams in Canada but has any name of any consequence come through that avenue (PDL).

[ThiKu]

Well, the Caps PDL team is generally 17 year olds not u23. So they are playing way above their age - there is also an over-age rule in PDL (3?). It's not a bad league, and the NorthWest especially has some decent squads. Victoria and Abby are in the league but they aren't competing for the same talent as Caps are. The Caps use much younger players while Victoria and Abby have rosters with players nearer the u23 age limit or above it - ie, the kids the Caps never signed when they are 15-18.

I think the Chicago PDL team is "Fire" in name only. ?

PDL need not be shrunk. For the land-size it is covering the number is fine. Also keep in mind it's a small summer league - meant to serve college kids. The name "development" is a misnomer as if you read the PDL web page it clearly is focused on results, not development. I can tell you that the Abby team is very much trying to develop and has a number of Whitecaps Youth-aged players in their first team, and have a u19 reserve team (not part of the Super 20 league) - the focus being university for these kids. Nothing wrong with that at all. Quite realistic. Abby also has a link with Bolton Wanderers and those coaches do scout this team. I know Highlanders also have similar set-up but I believe the Highlanders first team is older than Abby's.

Whitecaps v. Sounders - as of next year the u16 and u18 Whitecaps are playing in USSDA against Sounders and all other MLS sides. I do NOT know if that means they are leaving the PDL. But the MLS reserve league is back and I hope it expands next year to match the MLS schedule more closely. Keep in mind these USSDA teams can also enter whatever tournament (Dallas Cup?) that they like...

How could Caps youth play CSL? You do realize CSL is in Ontario right?

[Richard]

USL rosters may consist of a maximum of 26 players, with 18 designated for each game. In the PDL, a maximum of eight (8) players may be over the age of 23. Full credit to the Whitecaps Residency (mostly 18 or younger) for doing as well as they do.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Free Kick, you are basically correct. Thomas Niendorf is an agent. He works for the Wasserman Group, who represent a large number of MLS players. Ironically, based on the title of this thread, he works with Loic Favre -Lucien Favre son- who is a pal of Soehn's and has recommended Chiumiento & Hassli.

The Whitecaps Residency under Niendorf was intended to move players to Europe. JLL, Straith, Gage, Porter, REB, Davies, Semenets, Orgill, Salihovic, & Hamilton all came through this system.

Niendorf left the residency because of a change in focus at the club, in 2009. The focus from 2010 onward has been to develop players for the first team. This is why Richard Grootscholten was hired.

I believe that Gage, REB and Porter in particular were sold on the program because they wanted to go to Europe. I suspect this is why at least two of them balked at 32k per year developmental deal.

For the first time, there are 100% Whitecaps developed players who are getting good minutes with the PDL side and putting up some numbers: Ben McKendry, Yassin Essa, and Ben Fisk have all been with the program -I think- since U14. Other local boys like Marquez, Rodriguez, Clarke, and Stanese are all looking good as well.

If Soehn gets the sack and, perhaps, Lenarduzzi as well, there is hope we will get a European manager like Winter who understands player development and many of these guys above will get developmental deals. Regardless, I think Alderson will get a GA contract at the end of the PDL season, while Derrick Bassi also looks ready to go.

[Free kick]

How could Caps youth play CSL? You do realize CSL is in Ontario right?

I was going to get to that one. But again for the sake brevity, I didn't elaborate. Well, one way is to partner with a CSL club. There are several clubs who probably would not object to a partnership that would involve sharing of cost. Several don't have a particular affiliation to any group or demographic. In other sports, there are farm team in different parts of the country.

[ThiKu]

Wouldn't happen FK - Caps would want to keep the kids close so as to monitor development or send them to a reputable pro team (ie, Levesque in Germany).

ps-chances of Levesque coming back and being on MLS squad next year?