Thomas Niendorf leaves Caps

[Guest Ed]

Under Thomas Niendorf, Residency go to the super group final, losing to a Brazilian side.

Not under Thomas Niendorf, Residency 3 and out in group play.

[loyola]

Under Thomas Niendorf, Residency go to the super group final, losing to a Brazilian side.

Not under Thomas Niendorf, Residency 3 and out in group play.

If I'm not mistaken, Niendorf and the Caps didn't make it out of the group stage in 2008.

Lossing twice 1-0 against the US and Mexican NT (91-92) isn't the worst kind of result IMO. Congrats to those young men and I hope this will be a usefull experience in their development.

[Johnnie Monster]

Under Thomas Niendorf, Residency go to the super group final, losing to a Brazilian side.

Not under Thomas Niendorf, Residency 3 and out in group play.

Let's not forget it was Niendorf who prepped that losing team before they went into the tourney. Regardless, losing to the US and Mexican sides were respectable scorelines. Just not their year this time around, and hardly indicative of a program in crisis.

[Guest Ed]

If I'm not mistaken, Niendorf and the Caps didn't make it out of the group stage in 2008.

Lossing twice 1-0 against the US and Mexican NT (91-92) isn't the worst kind of result IMO. Congrats to those young men and I hope this will be a usefull experience in their development.

They did not make it out of the group stage in 2008, losing to eventual group winners 1-0 and drawing with the other 2 clubs in the group (including 3-3 vs Eintracht Frankfurt).

[jpg75]

This is the US U19 roster:

http://www.ussoccer.com/News/U-20-MNT/2010/03/US-U20-MNT-Head-Coach-Thomas-Rongen-Names-20-Players-to-Dallas-Cup-Roster.aspx

U.S. U-20 MNT Roster By Position:

GOALKEEPERS (2): Justin Luthy (Boston College; Dublin, Ohio), Zac MacMath (Maryland; St. Petersburg, Fla.)

DEFENDERS (7): Chad Barson (Akron; Lewis Center, Ohio), Jesus Gonzalez (CZ Elite; Burbank, Calif.), Ian Hines-Ike (Chivas USA Academy; Littleton, Colo.), Tyler Polak (CSA Legacy; Lincoln, Neb.), Kofi Sarkodie (Akron; Huber Heights, Ohio), Zarek Valentin (Akron; Lancaster, Pa.), Jared Watts (Wake Forest; Statesville, N.C.)

MIDFIELDERS (7): Jose Altamirano (San Diego State; San Diego, Calif.), Bryan De La Fuente (Chivas USA Academy; Bell, Calif.), Ruben Gonzalez (Chivas USA; Hawaiian Gardens, Calif.), Amobi Okugo (Philadelphia Union; Sacramento, Calif.), Will Packwood (Birmingham City; Concord, Mass.), Dillon Powers (Notre Dame; Plano, Texas), Cesar Zamora (Chivas USA; Sylmar, Calif.)

FORWARDS (4): Will Bates (Virginia; Chester, Va.), Ryan Finley (Duke; Lumberton, N.J.), Francisco Navas Cobo (Houston Dynamo; Richmond, Texas), Moises Orozco (Tigres; Oxnard, Calif.)

Pretty decent group, even if it is missing a few key players.

[Mazha]

Three of the boys at this years Dallas Cup also played in the FIRST Residency - Dallas tournament in 2008. They were 16, or in their 16th year at that time.

Gage, Dosanjh, and Davies. Gage is now 18 and Dosanjh and Davies are 19. Same tournament. Two years later, and two years older, the results are not as

good as they were in 2008 when the entire team was U-18. Last year, under Neindorf, the Residency result were EVEN BETTER!

Does anyone remember, or did anyone of you ever get the chance to watch that first year Residency team play? Their record speaks for itself in the PDL.

A true U-18 squad loses in the semi-finals of the PDL championship of North America after losing 5 key players to German try-outs. I wonder what Tomas Neindorf

and his teenage squad could have accomplished if the 5 starry-eyed round ballers gave up their dreams of European stardom and finished the last two games of the season?

[Richard]

Was the group the Residency played this year the same as in previous years? Two national teams this year is pretty stiff competition. If the group is different then you guys are not comparing apples with apples when complaining that the Residency didn't make it out of their group in 2010 no matter who the coach is.

[tmcmurph]

Was the group the Residency played this year the same as in previous years? Two national teams this year is pretty stiff competition. If the group is different then you guys are not comparing apples with apples when complaining that the Residency didn't make it out of their group in 2010 no matter who the coach is.

Only Frankfurt was the same. Yes the Caps res players had their work cut out for them with both the US and Mexican U19 teams in their grouping. Except for the Frankfurt loss (0-3) I thought they had respectable results. Not great and missed too many opportunities but losing 0-1 twice to 2 strong national sides is not bad. I don't know if they have to go back to the qualifications again or if they will get back into the top group. TFCA are doing great in the lower tier group so maybe they will get the nod for top tier entry next year. I'm not sure how it works for entry to that tournament.

As long as we can keep exposing our young players to this level of competition I think a lot of good will come from it.

[Richard]

What is the purpose of the Dallas Cup? Is it a club team tournament or an international tournament for national teams? Mixing the two together in the same group doesn't really achieve either objective. The national teams are pitted against likely inferior opposition and the club teams should be outclassed, neither is really satisfactory. I know this is a sweeping generalisation but I think my point is evident.

[masster]

As people have mentioned, for a variety of reasons it is very hard to compare this result with those from years past. One thing that has not been mentioned though is that despite some overlap in players, this group is just not as talented as what they have had before. I have heard this directly from the mouths of people involved in the program. The fact that most of the new kids are just from BC as opposed to all of Canada as in the past has a lot to do with it. Also, finishing was a real problem at this years tournament. Last year they had Dever Orgill who was clinical in leading them to the final. There was no gem up front this time.

[tmcmurph]

Vancouver Whitecaps FC at TSG 1899 Hoffenheim - April 4, 2010

They have lined up a extra friendly with another club that was eliminated. I think the purpose of the tournament is to provide as high a level competition as possible for the younger players. Bringing in national U19 sides might seem overkill but the Brazilian, Mexican and Euro clubs still do very well. It is an odd mix but I kind of like it. Lets see what they can do against what could be arguably the strongest U19 tournament outside of the U20 World Cup. It keeps the level of play very high to mix it up like that.

CF Monterrey Rayados (Mexico), Cruzeiro Esporte Clube (Brazil), Tottenham Hotspur FC (England) and Mexican National Team (91/92) (Mexico) are the 4 section winners.

PS. The Japanese U19 team was also in the tournament.

PPS. Yea Orgill is a killer near the net and will be great in the Caps lineup this year. Hope he stays healthy.

[Richard]

I have no problem with mixing up the tournamen - national teams, elite Euro clubs and local North American club teams - just then don't judge local club teams or coaches by the somewhat meaningless outcome of the tournament because it is an unreasonable comparison. I am sure the Whitecaps residency lads, most of whom this year are from BC as has been reported above, have benefitted from participation.

[Guest Ed]

A U19 team in Germany or Holland or France has one realistic goal - to produce one maybe two players a season for the senior team. No more than that. Does Niendorf leaving the club make a difference in that? I think so. His name brought in talent outside the province and outside Canada which I think might look elsewhere going forward.

[jpg75]

I'm going to throw out some random facts:

Vancouvers biggest lost was to Frankfurt 3-0.

Vancouver beat Frankfurt last year and drew them 2 years ago.

More than half the Vancouver team returned this year, including 3 players from 2 years ago.

Vancouver has atleast 5 Canadian and US youth internationals on their roster.

E. Frankfurt beat the US 1-0.

Japanese NT didn't advance from their group either.

[Richard]

A U19 team in Germany or Holland or France has one realistic goal - to produce one maybe two players a season for the senior team. No more than that. Does Niendorf leaving the club make a difference in that? I think so. His name brought in talent outside the province and outside Canada which I think might look elsewhere going forward.

Maybe, but let's wait and see who is hired to replace him. Miller wasn't hired to be the managing director of the 'Caps residency program, he was dropped into the position at short notice to babysit the program till a replacement for Niendorf is hired or the Whitecaps rejig the whole program.

[Canuck Oranje]

Youth teams are about developing talent. Winning a tournament is secondary. In fact, many coaches would have the attitude that if your youth teams are winning all the tournaments they enter, the club is entering the wrong tournaments.

I think calling the Dallas Cup the strongest U19 tournament outside of the World U20 is a huge stretch. There are many tournaments around the world of the same calibre as the Dallas Cup. The better club teams receive invitations to attend and choose from these invitations based on budgets and the comparable competition. I am sure Hoffenheim and Frankfurt have good U19 teams, but I doubt they were necessarily the best teams in Germany. I know Cruzeiro was just a quarterfinalist in the Copa Sao Paulo this past January so definitely not the best in Brazil.

The Whitcaps residency was able to put their players against some good teams. That in itself acheives a development objective if some players showed some good development.

[tmcmurph]

I think calling the Dallas Cup the strongest U19 tournament outside of the World U20 is a huge stretch.

The Whitcaps residency was able to put their players against some good teams. That in itself acheives a development objective if some players showed some good development.

Yea you are right, it is a stretch. It is probably the best venue in North America for youn club players to test themselves against serious competition. The Super Group is always loaded with strong teams. It would be more accurate to say that it is the strongest tournament in NA for our young club players to play in outside of U20 WCQ. Plus this event is every year so a lot more players get exposed to that level of competition than with the U20/U17 WCQ.

[Mazha]

My question still remains; "WHY toast Neindorf?" My thought "Bad Move"

[Watchmen]

Whitecaps played one final game today against TSG 1899 Hoffenheim, with a 1:1 result.

http://www.whitecapsfc.com/pdl/schedule/2010_04_03_v_TSG_1899_Hoffenheim.aspx

Sounds like they should have won it, but at least they finally scored.

[bettermirror]

Losing Neindorf was big mistake.....unless they hire someone better!

[Macksam]

The other thing that hasn't been touched enough is the impact of the playing style in relation to scouting from the German clubs. Will they be more hesitant to bring a kid in if he's more suited to a direct/longball style? You have to think the Caps scouting will change also, there won't be many small players since they won't be able to hack it physically. That means kids who have excellent possession kids, but aren't big enough will be passed over, kids like Sandhu and Dosanjh who are with Cottbus right now.

edit: I see you added "Also, the draw isn't Niendorf anymore. The draw is playing in the MLS now." If the draw wasn't Neindorf and possibly a loan to Germany, then why would Teibert and Cobby defect from TFC - before Vancouver was even announced as one of the MLS expansion teams.

I didn't see this before. The draw was probably the overall environment, which those things encompassed.

Also, Sandhu is fine with his size. He's like 5 10.

[Regs]

I believe a replacement has been found, not too sure why it hasn't been announced yet though... local guy who is coming back 'home'...

[Mazha]

Great! Another local, to go along with the now "local" thinking.

The two youngsters, Straith and Latendresse a very lucky to

have had a good training, and preparation year with Neindorf and

are now reaping the benefits. Somehow I don't see a local coach

inspiring greatness, and even attracting POTENTIAL greatness.

The 2 Cottbus boys should feel lucky to have had a chance to work

with the German and I'm sure that the CMNT will benefit shortly

from the two and a half years of Whitecap sanity.

[Free kick]

My question still remains; "WHY toast Neindorf?" My thought "Bad Move"

The article below answers that question.

Exerpt:

".................................. To simplify, when the Whitecaps were granted a Major League Soccer franchise, the focus of the residency program shifted from producing players for Europe to producing players for Vancouver's MLS team. Caps' brass and Neindorf didn't see eye to eye on that......................"

http://communities.canada.com/theprovince/blogs/backofthenet/archive/2010/07/27/quot-residency-is-already-paying-off-quot-soehn.aspx

I am still baffled at the suggestion that sending youth players to Europe helps the Whitecaps or by extension canadian soccer. It only helps the club(s) that is/are receiving them. If you want to go to europe, its an agent that you need not a pro club academy.

[Grizzly]

^^ I think the key part of the quote is, "To simplify". My suspicion is Neindorf's problem was not in developing players for Vancouver's MLS team as is stated but in developing players for MLS. MLS in effect owns the players in the league and puts numerous restrictions on what is done with them that other clubs in the world with good academies don't have to deal with. I am sure Neindorf wanted the freedom to develop players the way he saw fit. I think any development coach is fine with the club placing some restrictions on what he can do in order to serve the club's interests but having the league put a lot of restrictions that are neither in the team nor player's interest would bother a lot of coaches.

To answer your second comment, we only need to look at Straith to see how sending players to Europe helps both the Caps and the national team. Straith developed a lot in Germany, fetched the Caps a transfer sum (and probably a percentage of future transfer fees) and looks to be a solid national team player for many years to come. Had he stayed in Vancouver who knows if he would have even made it to the Caps first squad.