Thomas Niendorf leaves Caps

[Cheeta]

"what makes us say that he is less qualified than TN?"

I don't think anyone is saying that. We don't know. It's just one of those instances of a bird-in-the-bag is worth two-in-the-bush if you follow. TN has a positive track record, he has proven his worth. TS hasn't.

That's not to say Soehn won't more than fill Niendorf's shoes it's just that no one will really know if he can or can't until we know AND by the time we truly find out it's really in effect too late to do much about it. For good or bad the 'Caps are now married to Soehn.

Don't mean to over simplify things but to my eyes it looks like the 'Caps are shedding a proven asset for an unproven prospect just because he's more agreeable to management. Anytime you do that you're taking a risk. And when management starts taking risks they are subject to be questioned on it.

[Free kick]

I don't really understand your negativity. The Whitecaps system may not be perfect, but it is the best we have. We should be criticizing everybody else...not them. Plus, we can't expect the Whitecaps to change the entire development system by themselves. They should look out for their interests and the players in their system. I think they do a very good job of that.

You think the Whitecaps weren't happy with their players training and playing in the Junior Bundesliga? Why not? It helps the players by giving them a foot in the door in Europe. The Whitecaps still have the option whether to sell or not. More importantly, it allows them to play against some top competition and introduces them to a new culture and perhaps new coaching methods. This in turn helps both the club and Canadian soccer. If you think it doesn't benefit the Whitecaps to have these players in Europe, what should they be doing after the PDL season? Training sessions, Dallas Cup and a tour or 2? That isn't good enough. Combine the 2 based on the needs of the player and you have the best of both worlds.

Look at your definition above about the purpose of an academy. The players do receive advanced coaching at home during the first year of the program. In year two, if they are deemed ready, they can go out on loan. This is not a requirement. They aren't forced to go to Europe. Do you think any of the players that are over there right now however do not want to be there? Dosanjh, Porter, Baker, etc...none of these guys would get minutes with the Caps right now. What is wrong with sending them out on loan? The aim is still to develop these players into professionals. I'm sure the Whitecaps would be happy to see every single one of them play for their first team but some won't be good enough and some might not want to. What is wrong with the Whitecaps helping a player whose goal is to get to Europe and making a little money of him at the same time?

In my opinion, your assertion that the Whitecaps system equates to saying 'we are not good enough to do the job at home' is wrong. In my mind, it is like saying 'you showed good progress in year one and have potential but are not ready for our first team yet so you have the opportunity to go abroad on loan and we will see how things develop'. You need to remember that there is no formula for how the Whitecaps deal with each player. Niendorf and the coaching staff would talk and discuss with each player about what would be best for their development and that is what they do. Lets use some current players as examples.

Randy Edwini-Bonsu: spent time in Europe when he was younger. Came home and signed with the residency program. Says it was best for him to stay in Vancouver and has now moved into the first team. Made an initial impact last season and will be seeing a larger role in 2010.

Adam Straith: Signed for the residency program. One of the first players to go out on loan. Cottbus likes him, sign him. He grows into first team minutes at a decent level and the Whitecaps make some money. Real money will be made if he is sold on in the future.

Ethan Gage: Signs with the program and bursts his way onto the senior team in the 2008 playoff run. Features regularily in 2009 until a tet a tet with Teitur sees him fall out of the lineup. He goes over to Europe with a couple of trials at Wolfsburg and Frankfurt. Now he is back with the senior team and will be fighting for his spot in a deep central midfield that includes Nash, Sanchez, Steele.

Alex Semenets: Signs with the program. Made his way through the PDL team. Went to Germany on trial at Hoffenheim and 1 other club which I can not remember. Spent the end of last season on the fringes of the Whitecaps senior team. On the roster for this season and it will most likely be a make or break year for him.

No path has been the same for any of these players. Include Philippe Davies, Dever Orgill and Cornelius Stewart who are all expected to see time with the senior team this season and I would say their record of moving players up has been pretty impressive. Remember, the program is only 2 and a half years old. I give credit to Niendorf for a lot of this. Thus, not only am I sad, but worried to see him go.

It looks like (From reading that piece in the Province), that the Whitecaps agree with me.

[Free kick]

"what makes us say that he is less qualified than TN?"

I don't think anyone is saying that. We don't know. It's just one of those instances of a bird-in-the-bag is worth two-in-the-bush if you follow. TN has a positive track record, he has proven his worth. TS hasn't.

.......

Don't mean to over simplify things but to my eyes it looks like the 'Caps are shedding a proven asset ...........

.

But how do you know that? what is it about his record and what is it about him that makes him a PROVEN asset .. I dont mean this to be critical of the guy but I would seriously like to know, maybe he is competent but I dont know. I have never met the guy and bet that aside from maybe one or two persons on this forum no one else has. Yet, in this forum the mention of his name conjures up credibility and high competency. But what is that based on? The fact that he sent several youth players to a club in Europe? To me that has more to do with contacts than competence and how do we know that that there wasn't a motivation of personal gain in doing so. And maybe those contacts are not as hard as we may think its is to establish?

Have you ever read the book "Join me" by Danny Wallace? Its true story about guy who decides to start a cult by merely putting and ad in the local paper saying nothing more than "Join me" and a website or mailing address. Anyways, the cult/group spreads to millions around the globe spurring endless dialogue and praise on the founders without even knowing what the group stands for and what any beliefs they hold.. A curious sociological phenomena the concept of how someone can widespread approval and a herd like following in this fashion.

Things that I have always been curious about is:

1) If, say, Cottbus was a great place to send the creme de la creme, why not just hire or recommend for hiring some youth academy personnel from their organization and bring them here. As far as the games and environment, well there is always the "one off" travel.

2) How did TN earn a living before joining the whitecaps? The allegation that he opposed the move to MLS, kind of says a lot doesn't it?

[jpg75]

Wow! the quote in that piece:

"As for Niendorf, I can't say yet with absolute authority, but I've heard from a couple of players that he and the club didn't see eye-to-eye on what was best for them. He wanted to send them to Europe and the club wanted to keep them for the first team."

Here I am thousands of miles away from the scene reading between the lines of these stories and it looks like I hit the bull eye. Also, it looks like more people within the whitecaps organization share the views that I expressed earlier in this thread. As for Tom Soehn? what makes us say that he is less qualified than TN?

Well, i can't say for sure, but i've spoken to the guy. Unlike Mark Weber....here's a quote:

"You are correct in your assumption (of the Caps wanting to retain Bonsu and Gage for the 1st team). But the end goal for those players is still an opportunity for a career in Europe."

So Gage and Bonsu - the players themselves - feel that the end goal for them is Europe, just like Marcus Haber who happens to be only 1 year older than them. If the Caps have such a big problem with sending kids over to Europe and want to keep them, then why were they selling their 20 year old starting striker this off-season? Why is Tom Soehn going to continue their ties with German clubs? And where is Neindorf quoted as being against a move to MLS? No where, that's where. I see a whole lot of speculation and not much else.

As for why is Neindorf such a respected coach; he assisted in the development of Lars Hirschfeld, Kevin McKenna and Tam Nsaliwa. And to a much lesser extent Owen Hargreaves.

[canucklefan]

So Gage and Bonsu - the players themselves - feel that the end goal for them is Europe, just like Marcus Haber who happens to be only 1 year older than them.

And there's nothing wrong with that. Enough said.

[Free kick]

Well, i can't say for sure, but i've spoken to the guy. Unlike Mark Weber....here's a quote:

Why is Tom Soehn going to continue their ties with German clubs? And where is Neindorf quoted as being against a move to MLS? No where, that's where. I see a whole lot of speculation and not much else.

As for why is Neindorf such a respected coach; he assisted in the development of Lars Hirschfeld, Kevin McKenna and Tam Nsaliwa. And to a much lesser extent Owen Hargreaves.

As far as continuing their ties with German clubs, here is what was said: "Lenarduzzi said he wasn't concerned about losing Niendorf's deep contact base in Germany. Director of soccer operations Tommy Soehn, Lenarduzzi said, speaks German and has already "picked up the ball in terms of connecting with whoever the contacts were at various clubs.".

My interpretation: There is no point or gain in disputing or criticzing the German clubs or burning any bridges that dont need to be burned. the German clubs didn't do anything wrong so why state that it was bad idea to send them there? Plus, the time spend there probably didnt hurt the players. But I'll bet my money that you wont see these kind long term transfers anymore. Working relation with these clubs, of course, is beneficial to everyone. But as I said before, its one thing to send players over there for a week or so to train and play in the odd tournament but it quite another to outright transfer the player ( who are far from fully developed) to another club and not derive any benefit for the club as a whole. How do we know that the realtionship benefitted the German clubs more than the Whitecaps? And, hard could it be

As for the the second point, that he assisted in the development of Hirshfeld, McKenna, Nsaliwa... etc.. using the words "Assisted" suggests that its kind of unclear. What is clear is that he had abig part in hooking up player to European clubs... so we can give him his dues on that. So, should we be lauding lauding the accomplishments of say, Barry Maclean, in the same vein. We often think of Maclean and TN in very different ways but manybe TN skills and accomplishmenst resemble more those of a Barry Maclean than Tom Soehn.. Here we are in a situation whereby, in this thread, people are taking swipes at Tom Soehn ( has coached professionally) but lauding the accomplishment of someone who acchievemenst are more consistent with those of a player agent or recruiter than actual coach. Every player's objective shoud be to play in Europe. the question is when? when your 16-18? or when you are 25-30 and have proven yourself as professional and outgrown the domestic league. I say, for the good of canadina soccer, it should be the latter.

As far as being against a move to MLS, well, the piece made mention of this though not stating exactly so. If it was obvious that there is no basis or relevance to the story, then you can be sure that it would never have even been mentioned.

--------------

Edit: edit: just to reiterate... I'm not knocking the guy. But what i am knocking is the preception here of what TN is and what he has accomplished. And that perception, as I read it, is that of "player development/coaching guru". While, everything that I have read about him sugggests that he is more of an agent/middleman linking players with clubs overseas. Which he does very well.

I cite as an example the suggestion that has been brought forward that TFC should hire him but I wonder what benefit would that bring to TFC. If you get play the friendlies against teh likes of Real Madrid, Villa and Benfica, then I am sure that the relationship with those clubs is at a level where they will pickup the phone when you call. The Whitecaps probably figured taht they could do the same thing.

[jpg75]

Aaarrrgh, i hate it when i lose everything i wrote on this stupid new laptop! Must be a certain set of keystrokes..

Condensed version:

We'll see what the Caps do in the Fall. They've only transferred one player - Adam Straith. All others are loans. Loans are good, because PDL is only 3 months. Didn't say Soehn sucks, doesn't matter anyways because Colin Miller is new residency coach. Miller, longball or possession, can't wait to see since this could give legs to rumour it was TT and Neindorf butting heads on style of play - by the way Lenarduzzi is wrong, alot of good players can't play both systems well.

Neindorf - UEFA A licence, former Dynamo Berlin coach. Caps made it to Dallas Cup Super group final, like to see Barry Maclean do that. Frankfurt coach praised Neindorf 'He (Neindorf) runs his team like a (Junior) Bundesliga club..."

I think Caps should groom players before selling them too, they'd make more $$$. Why did they sell Haber? his transfer makes as little sense as Straiths and Neindorf had nothing to do with that.

[Richard]

Niendorf certainly had a reputation for being a strong disciplinarian. Nothing wrong with that and the players respected him without doubt.

[Guest Ed]

As far as continuing their ties with German clubs, here is what was said: "Lenarduzzi said he wasn't concerned about losing Niendorf's deep contact base in Germany. Director of soccer operations Tommy Soehn, Lenarduzzi said, speaks German and has already "picked up the ball in terms of connecting with whoever the contacts were at various clubs.".

My interpretation: There is no point or gain in disputing or criticzing the German clubs or burning any bridges that dont need to be burned. the German clubs didn't do anything wrong so why state that it was bad idea to send them there? Plus, the time spend there probably didnt hurt the players. But I'll bet my money that you wont see these kind long term transfers anymore. Working relation with these clubs, of course, is beneficial to everyone. But as I said before, its one thing to send players over there for a week or so to train and play in the odd tournament but it quite another to outright transfer the player ( who are far from fully developed) to another club and not derive any benefit for the club as a whole. How do we know that the realtionship benefitted the German clubs more than the Whitecaps? And, hard could it be

As for the the second point, that he assisted in the development of Hirshfeld, McKenna, Nsaliwa... etc.. using the words "Assisted" suggests that its kind of unclear. What is clear is that he had abig part in hooking up player to European clubs... so we can give him his dues on that. So, should we be lauding lauding the accomplishments of say, Barry Maclean, in the same vein. We often think of Maclean and TN in very different ways but manybe TN skills and accomplishmenst resemble more those of a Barry Maclean than Tom Soehn.. Here we are in a situation whereby, in this thread, people are taking swipes at Tom Soehn ( has coached professionally) but lauding the accomplishment of someone who acchievemenst are more consistent with those of a player agent or recruiter than actual coach. Every player's objective shoud be to play in Europe. the question is when? when your 16-18? or when you are 25-30 and have proven yourself as professional and outgrown the domestic league. I say, for the good of canadina soccer, it should be the latter.

As far as being against a move to MLS, well, the piece made mention of this though not stating exactly so. If it was obvious that there is no basis or relevance to the story, then you can be sure that it would never have even been mentioned.

--------------

Edit: edit: just to reiterate... I'm not knocking the guy. But what i am knocking is the preception here of what TN is and what he has accomplished. And that perception, as I read it, is that of "player development/coaching guru". While, everything that I have read about him sugggests that he is more of an agent/middleman linking players with clubs overseas. Which he does very well. I cite as an example the suggestion that has been brought forward that TFC should hire him but I wonder what benefit would that bring to TFC. If you get play the friendlies against teh likes of Real Madrid, Villa and Benfica, then I am sure that the relationship with those clubs is at a level where they will pickup the phone when you call. The Whitecaps probably figured taht they could do the same thing.

The "agent/middleman" TN develops players, but more importantly for an organization, he can identify the top potential pro players. The Vancouver residency program model that he developed has very clearly defined stages, with LOANS out to Junior Bundesliga clubs being part of the process. If you think any 18 yr olds here in Canada are getting the high-level of training and high level of competition that the A Junioren Bundesliga can offer over the full winter season, then we must agree to disagree.

[TheKottonmouthed1555362307]

Yeah, tough loss, but if he's butting heads with TT, it had to be done; as I believe Lenarduzzi believes TT is the coach for the Caps to go into the MLS. Niendorf is a great coach, but if your gonna commit to someone it's gonna be the head coach and not your academy coach.

Yet, I'm sure Neindorf will end up becoming agood head coach at some point. Too bad it doesn't look like it will be in Vancouver.

[Mazha]

The sad thing about this whole Neindorf situation is that the Caps will no longer be privy to the creme de la creme.

I know for a fact that the kids from that fantastic first season did NOT sign their contracts with the Whitecaps because

of Bob Lenarduzzi. Neindorf was the draw! The two and a half seasons of his expertise will probably never be recreated

here in Canada. And it will probably take the Whitecaps another few years to realize that they have just shot themselves

in the foot (March 2010).

[SthMelbRed]

quotes from Colin Miller in the lead up to the upcoming Dallas Cup tournament which might give some insight into the parting of the ways between Niendorf and the 'Caps.

http://www.whitecapsfc.com/archive/feature03241002.aspx

Things looked bright heading into 2010, but the squad had to face some new challenges. Late last month, men's team assistant coach Colin Miller assumed head coaching duties of the program on an interim basis after the Whitecaps parted ways with Residency managing director and head coach Thomas Niendorf. The former Canadian men's national team captain admits the change was an adjustment for the talented young group. "As a new coach to the program, I've tried to make the transition as smooth as possible for the players," Miller told whitecapsfc.com. "Having worked with them for about a month now, I've been impressed with the players' attitude and work rate. They've definitely bought into the style of play that the first team uses, and that is important, as it provides consistency between the Residency and men's team."

[jpg75]

Booby L hops into the Hot Tub Time Machine to set back player development by decades...

[Guest Ed]

^ Well said.

[bettermirror]

This is what I was signing on to quote. Some Abby players do get disgruntled if you don't play quickly from back to front. So I suspect the coaching change definitely has to do with the Residency matching TT's style of play.

quotes from Colin Miller in the lead up to the upcoming Dallas Cup tournament which might give some insight into the parting of the ways between Niendorf and the 'Caps.

http://www.whitecapsfc.com/archive/feature03241002.aspx

Things looked bright heading into 2010, but the squad had to face some new challenges. Late last month, men's team assistant coach Colin Miller assumed head coaching duties of the program on an interim basis after the Whitecaps parted ways with Residency managing director and head coach Thomas Niendorf. The former Canadian men's national team captain admits the change was an adjustment for the talented young group. "As a new coach to the program, I've tried to make the transition as smooth as possible for the players," Miller told whitecapsfc.com. "Having worked with them for about a month now, I've been impressed with the players' attitude and work rate. They've definitely bought into the style of play that the first team uses, and that is important, as it provides consistency between the Residency and men's team."

[TheKottonmouthed1555362307]

Booby L hops into the Hot Tub Time Machine to set back player development by decades...

Yet, still a century ahead of TFC's player development.

[Richard]

Booby L hops into the Hot Tub Time Machine to set back player development by decades...

Sorry but that's a load of prejudiced BS.

[jpg75]

Yet, still a century ahead of TFC's player development.

What a blindly partisan statement. We'll see in a few years how far your longball academy has fallen...

Sorry but that's a load of prejudiced BS.

100% on the money Richard, i am prejudiced against longball! It's a witless, caveman style of play that emphasizes size and strength over skill and guile.

I think playing longball is going to be an incredible waste of the talent assembled in the residency program, these kids will not learn the necessary possession skills needed to excel as professionals in MLS and beyond.

[Macksam]

What a blindly partisan statement. We'll see in a few years how far your longball academy has fallen...

Well, residency is still a residency. I bet they will still be developing players properly through skill and ability.

[jpg75]

Well, residency is still a residency. I bet they will still be developing players properly through skill and ability.

First of all, this is not a Toronto vs. Vancouver argument. This is a Booby L is an idiot who clings to longball argument.

Second, Neindorf was the best thing that happened to their youth programs. What is the point of a residency if the best players don't want to come play for you? (i'm talking going forward, not what they already have).

Third, Toronto is apparently extending their academy to include billeting (this is what Rudi said a few days ago, i trust what he says). Residency = billeting. And TFC trains 4 days a week, probably the same as the Caps, so i don't see how Vancouver is a century ahead of us because their kids have sleep overs.

Fact is the Caps have dropped the ball with this change, they had the clear upper hand in development in this country, far ahead of Toronto and they seem to be pissing their advantage away. The only way an elite player is going to choose to jeopardize his development by playing in an academy that emphasizes longball tactics is if he hasn't been advised properly.

[Macksam]

First of all, this is not a Toronto vs. Vancouver argument. This is a Booby L is an idiot who clings to longball argument.

Second, Neindorf was the best thing that happened to their youth programs. What is the point of a residency if the best players don't want to come play for you? (i'm talking going forward, not what they already have).

Third, Toronto is apparently extending their academy to include billeting (this is what Rudi said a few days ago, i trust what he says). Residency = billeting. And TFC trains 4 days a week, probably the same as the Caps, so i don't see how Vancouver is a century ahead of us because their kids have sleep overs.

Fact is the Caps have dropped the ball with this change, they had the clear upper hand in development in this country, far ahead of Toronto and they seem to be pissing their advantage away. The only way an elite player is going to choose to jeopardize his development by playing in an academy that emphasizes longball tactics is if he hasn't been advised properly.

How do you know their going to be doing a long ball style of game? Also, I doubt the best players will decline playing for them considering it's virtually their only avenue of becoming a professional. Also, the draw isn't Niendorf anymore. The draw is playing in the MLS now.

[jpg75]

That seems to be the prevailing wisdom from Caps fans, Thordarson likes to play more direct than the average NA coach does.

Pretty much all of the Alberta kids were there because of Neindorf, now that he's not there they'll likely stay close to home with Edmonton. Highly doubt any of the Ontario kids will now go across the country to play in an academy of seemingly equal quality. The Quebec kids now have the Impact reserve team to strive for.

The other thing that hasn't been touched enough is the impact of the playing style in relation to scouting from the German clubs. Will they be more hesitant to bring a kid in if he's more suited to a direct/longball style? You have to think the Caps scouting will change also, there won't be many small players since they won't be able to hack it physically. That means kids who have excellent possession kids, but aren't big enough will be passed over, kids like Sandhu and Dosanjh who are with Cottbus right now.

edit: I see you added "Also, the draw isn't Niendorf anymore. The draw is playing in the MLS now." If the draw wasn't Neindorf and possibly a loan to Germany, then why would Teibert and Cobby defect from TFC - before Vancouver was even announced as one of the MLS expansion teams.

[Macksam]

All I'm saying is that it's all premature right now. Let's wait and see how it all pans out.

[RS]

Third, Toronto is apparently extending their academy to include billeting (this is what Rudi said a few days ago, i trust what he says).

What I wrote was based on info I received last summer from the most reliable of sources. I haven't really been following up too much on the academy since then, but given the scope of what TFC were planning, I doubt much has changed with the plan.

A less reliable source confirmed the billeting as happening as of a couple of months ago.

All I'm saying is that it's all premature right now. Let's wait and see how it all pans out.

I agree with this.

On the surface, the loss of Niendorf really hurts Vancouver's "draw" as the premier academy in the country, but the Caps may figure out a way to maintain their own high standards.

[Guest Ed]

Well Thomas started his career in Canada in Edmonton shortly after the wall came down. Perhaps he will be resurfacing there and the numerous great talents coming out of Alberta can stay a little closer to home.