Thomas Niendorf leaves Caps

[tmcmurph]

http://www.whitecapsfc.com/archive/feature02251001.aspx

Residency leader and the Caps part ways. Very little else said in the article.

[jpg75]

Ouch. Not good news.

[tovan1]

might this have something to do with Whitecaps and MLS not seeing eye-to-eye on the Academy rules?

[Tuscan]

Is this really such a horrible thing? Surely the Caps will be able to bring in someone else of his ilk who will be able to keep the current level of the Residency, if not perhaps introduce new elements to it that could improve it. Sometimes change like this can offer positive surprises. I hope they bring someone in with a Spanish influence.

[Richard]

might this have something to do with Whitecaps and MLS not seeing eye-to-eye on the Academy rules?

Marc Weber in The Province today says: "While Niendorf proved successful in coaching the under-19 team to impressive victories over major international youth sides, and in grooming players for loan spells in Germany where he has deep connections, there seemed to be a disconnect between the residency program and the first team." Philosophical differences in playing style... maybe. More likely to be the MLS issue as you suggest I think, or both.

[Guest Ed]

Best of luck to Thomas. It's quite clear he was doing a good job developing talent for the organization. The CSA should be looking at this as an opportunity.

[Mr.Impact]

Marc Weber in The Province today says: "While Niendorf proved successful in coaching the under-19 team to impressive victories over major international youth sides, and in grooming players for loan spells in Germany where he has deep connections, there seemed to be a disconnect between the residency program and the first team." Philosophical differences in playing style... maybe. More likely to be the MLS issue as you suggest I think, or both.

Looks like Weber is pissed off cause not enough residency players made their way to Great Britain or MLS, which is hog wash, as far as I'm concerned. Neindorf has a proven track record of developing players, who move on to " bigger and better things". I beieve he was involved with Owen Hargreaves development out of Calgary, and went on to develop other players for Canadian Football.

[ag futbol]

Surely, we must at be the point where someone like Niendorf can potentially find another spot in Canadian football. Maybe with the new Edmonton team or elsewhere. While the caps have the most money behind their programs, his results still seemed to be ahead of expectations in every measure except getting players to the caps first team, which can at least be partially explained by their willingness to let guys go abroad (which isn't a bad thing) if MLS was already here i think a few more would have stuck around.

The explanation of "we want to play more direct football" from the article... god I hope not.

[jpg75]

^ No kidding, talk about going backwards.

"Niendorf, hired in May 2007, preaches the technical side of the game and wants players to be able to play in multiple systems. Teitur Thordarson, the current first team head coach, has a more direct style and plays far more through the flanks."

C'mon TFC, hire Neindorf as TD of the Academy...

[masster]

The Whitecaps took trips and established relationships with clubs in Germany. They have sent so many young Canadians there on loan. I believe this was all done through Niendorf's connections. I hope these relationships can continue now that Niendorf is gone. I don't want to see young Canadian players hurt because caoches and management can't get along.

[Free kick]

They have sent so many young Canadians there on loan. I believe this was all done through Niendorf's connections.

QUOTE]

Maybe that's the problem. And, maybe thats why they weren't interested in retaining his services. Does sending players (who are not yet developed) to European clubs and receiving a pitance ($$) in return, really help the club, the players, or canadian soccer in general. How does it help the the Whitecaps to have a player playing at Cottbus? The purpose of an academy is and always should be : to provide players an opportunity to receive advanced coaching and instruction ( at home) with the aim developing players for the senior sides and/or to yield future revenues for the club through the player transfers market. Well, you are not achieving that by taking 16-18 yr olds and loaning them out or transferring them to other european clubs before the players are developed as professional. In essesnces its like saying: " we are not good enough to do the job here so let take what we can get and, lets send them abroad where they know better". I would ask why that is so? and whay you cant create an evronmment comparable to, say, Cottbus here in Canada? And besides, its not Barcelona or Ajax we talking about here, its Cottbus.

What is it about the environment over there that you cant recreate here in Canada if you have the $$$ as we are supposely led to believe. Remember, we are not talking about sending players overseas fora week to play in tournament. We are talking about requiring players to set up residency over there for six months to a year. or longer.

[Free kick]

On a further note, somehow I dont buy this suggestion that the parting of way has to do with playing philosophies and the type of player (ie.: long ball, versus possession, technical versus tactical). These are discussions of yersteryear becasue in the last 10-15, the game at the world level has converged towards uniform style that is played at highest level. in CL, you cant really tell the difference anymore between an English team and one from the continent. You also see this at the WC although to a slightly lesser degree. And I am sure people like Lennarduzzi, Soehn and Niendorf are fully aware of this. Look no further than our Voyageurs cup, we three teams with three coaches and management groups of different backgrounds. We've debated at great lenght things like talent, tactics, performance. But is there anything to differentiat in terms of playing philosophies between the three or any of the other in MLS or USL. No one reminds of 1982 Brazil nor does anyone look like our national womens team under pellerud.

Unlike 1998, when Canada losses to Mexico or Honduras today, style and playing philospohies has nothing to do with it. Its all about talent.

[jpg75]

What is it about the environment over there that you cant recreate here in Canada if you have the $$$ as we are supposely led to believe. Remember, we are not talking about sending players overseas fora week to play in tournament. We are talking about requiring players to set up residency over there for six months to a year. or longer.

My guess would be the level of competition week in and week out in the Junior Bundesliga. Over there you get 34 games a year against quality teams stock full of kids their own age who are vying to be pros. Over here during the winter the kids train and play some friendlies and go abroad for a few tourneys. By the time the PDL season starts in May the kids who went over to Cottbus are back and able to compete.

It should also be noted that a few of the best players (Edwini-Bonsu, Ethan Gage and Dever Orgill) were never sent over as the club took a longer term vision with them. Straith is the only elite prospect from that first class that signed with Cottbus.

[Free kick]

My guess would be the level of competition week in and week out in the Junior Bundesliga. Over there you get 34 games a year against quality teams stock full of kids their own age who are vying to be pros. Over here during the winter the kids train and play some friendlies and go abroad for a few tourneys. By the time the PDL season starts in May the kids who went over to Cottbus are back and able to compete.

.

All true. But I 've been harping on this thing for quite a while now because it seems so logical. Specifically when I first heard these stories. Yet many have hailed the Whitecaps program as model to follow but couldn't help shaking my head. But here we are, one day after our most successfull Olympics as country and what have we seen and heard today in comparaison to the days before the Calgary olympics. A couple of examples:

- we have seen a record Olympic medal haul. And we have seen it in the same disciplines by different athletes for several olympics. Sure Gaetan Boucher was success by going to Europe but how did we do in speedskating after he retired? having widest possible access to these facilities creates that critical mass that ultimately breeds long term excellence. If you have to count on developing talent to go abroad, then you will never build that critical mass and competitive environmnet. Thats why we (as winter nation) use to finish 10-20 in medals in the winter olympics.

- We have also heard to story of Slovak hockey team and how there is concern that this is is their last hurrah as a hockey nation because they do not have the junior leagues or solid (well funded) domestic clubs with intergrated development programs. Consequently all their current stars are products of having played in Canadian junior hockey. Going abroad is not an option for everyone.

Facilities + $$$+ proper training = consistent results. I dont know how it could be any simpler. I'll bet that is why he was not retained. Perhaps there was some ambiguity in regards to whether he was a talent agent or an academy director.

[canucklefan]

It should also be noted that a few of the best players (Edwini-Bonsu, Ethan Gage and Dever Orgill) were never sent over as the club took a longer term vision with them. Straith is the only elite prospect from that first class that signed with Cottbus.

I'm not so sure about that. I remember Ethan Gage went on trial with VfL Wolfsburg in October of last year and around that period he trialed also with Frankfurt. I'm not sure why Edwini-Bonsu didn't get a chance yet to trial with some Bundesliga 2 or Bundesliga club. My guess is that he didn't score enough goals in the USL, that should explain, maybe, why he didn't get his chance yet. About Orgill, one could say he's in the same situation that Edwini-Bonsu. Again, it is just a guess regarding Edwini-Bonsu's case.

[tmcmurph]

Maybe REB & Orgil are happy where they are. Not everyone wants to go to Europe at that age. Strange though that sounds think about it from their perspective. Both have already relocated at least once in their lives. Maybe they feel comfortable and are progressing and just don't feel like starting all over again. Others like Straith may have had a dream of playing in Europe. By not getting in the way of residency players when they have Euro dreams makes for a lot of good words from them about the program. That draws more players to the program.

It would be nice to see them all play in Caps colors but the very best will eventually go to Europe at some point. It is just too lucrative not to with the MLS salary cap in place.

[jpg75]

I'm not so sure about that. I remember Ethan Gage went on trial with VfL Wolfsburg in October of last year and around that period he trialed also with Frankfurt. I'm not sure why Edwini-Bonsu didn't get a chance yet to trial with some Bundesliga 2 or Bundesliga club. My guess is that he didn't score enough goals in the USL, that should explain, maybe, why he didn't get his chance yet. About Orgill, one could say he's in the same situation that Edwini-Bonsu. Again, it is just a guess regarding Edwini-Bonsu's case.

When i spoke to Neindorf through email last year he told me that they were taking a different approach with REB, Gage and Orgill because they wanted to develop them professionally through the first team. The end game for those three was still going to be Europe, but that it was advantageous for them and the club to wait until they're further along in their development.

[jpg75]

All true. But I 've been harping on this thing for quite a while now because it seems so logical. Specifically when I first heard these stories. Yet many have hailed the Whitecaps program as model to follow but couldn't help shaking my head. But here we are, one day after our most successfull Olympics as country and what have we seen and heard today in comparaison to the days before the Calgary olympics. A couple of examples:

- we have seen a record Olympic medal haul. And we have seen it in the same disciplines by different athletes for several olympics. Sure Gaetan Boucher was success by going to Europe but how did we do in speedskating after he retired? having widest possible access to these facilities creates that critical mass that ultimately breeds long term excellence. If you have to count on developing talent to go abroad, then you will never build that critical mass and competitive environmnet. Thats why we (as winter nation) use to finish 10-20 in medals in the winter olympics.

- We have also heard to story of Slovak hockey team and how there is concern that this is is their last hurrah as a hockey nation because they do not have the junior leagues or solid (well funded) domestic clubs with intergrated development programs. Consequently all their current stars are products of having played in Canadian junior hockey. Going abroad is not an option for everyone.

Facilities + $$$+ proper training = consistent results. I dont know how it could be any simpler. I'll bet that is why he was not retained. Perhaps there was some ambiguity in regards to whether he was a talent agent or an academy director.

One might argue that the Caps residency kids going over to Cottbus are benefitting from playing in 2 different systems (Jr. Bund and PDL) and extending their season into a full 12 month schedule. It just happens that there is no overlap between the two so it provides for an exclusive opportunity.

But I agree with your premise, we need something here in Canada that is comparable to what is over in Europe. We have the CSL and PDL, which can be decent development tools, but a junior league would be even better. The Americans are getting their development league going, we need to do the same.

[masster]

Maybe that's the problem. And, maybe thats why they weren't interested in retaining his services. Does sending players (who are not yet developed) to European clubs and receiving a pitance ($$) in return, really help the club, the players, or canadian soccer in general. How does it help the the Whitecaps to have a player playing at Cottbus? The purpose of an academy is and always should be : to provide players an opportunity to receive advanced coaching and instruction ( at home) with the aim developing players for the senior sides and/or to yield future revenues for the club through the player transfers market. Well, you are not achieving that by taking 16-18 yr olds and loaning them out or transferring them to other european clubs before the players are developed as professional. In essesnces its like saying: " we are not good enough to do the job here so let take what we can get and, lets send them abroad where they know better". I would ask why that is so? and whay you cant create an evronmment comparable to, say, Cottbus here in Canada? And besides, its not Barcelona or Ajax we talking about here, its Cottbus.

What is it about the environment over there that you cant recreate here in Canada if you have the $$$ as we are supposely led to believe. Remember, we are not talking about sending players overseas fora week to play in tournament. We are talking about requiring players to set up residency over there for six months to a year. or longer.

I don't really understand your negativity. The Whitecaps system may not be perfect, but it is the best we have. We should be criticizing everybody else...not them. Plus, we can't expect the Whitecaps to change the entire development system by themselves. They should look out for their interests and the players in their system. I think they do a very good job of that.

You think the Whitecaps weren't happy with their players training and playing in the Junior Bundesliga? Why not? It helps the players by giving them a foot in the door in Europe. The Whitecaps still have the option whether to sell or not. More importantly, it allows them to play against some top competition and introduces them to a new culture and perhaps new coaching methods. This in turn helps both the club and Canadian soccer. If you think it doesn't benefit the Whitecaps to have these players in Europe, what should they be doing after the PDL season? Training sessions, Dallas Cup and a tour or 2? That isn't good enough. Combine the 2 based on the needs of the player and you have the best of both worlds.

Look at your definition above about the purpose of an academy. The players do receive advanced coaching at home during the first year of the program. In year two, if they are deemed ready, they can go out on loan. This is not a requirement. They aren't forced to go to Europe. Do you think any of the players that are over there right now however do not want to be there? Dosanjh, Porter, Baker, etc...none of these guys would get minutes with the Caps right now. What is wrong with sending them out on loan? The aim is still to develop these players into professionals. I'm sure the Whitecaps would be happy to see every single one of them play for their first team but some won't be good enough and some might not want to. What is wrong with the Whitecaps helping a player whose goal is to get to Europe and making a little money of him at the same time?

In my opinion, your assertion that the Whitecaps system equates to saying 'we are not good enough to do the job at home' is wrong. In my mind, it is like saying 'you showed good progress in year one and have potential but are not ready for our first team yet so you have the opportunity to go abroad on loan and we will see how things develop'. You need to remember that there is no formula for how the Whitecaps deal with each player. Niendorf and the coaching staff would talk and discuss with each player about what would be best for their development and that is what they do. Lets use some current players as examples.

Randy Edwini-Bonsu: spent time in Europe when he was younger. Came home and signed with the residency program. Says it was best for him to stay in Vancouver and has now moved into the first team. Made an initial impact last season and will be seeing a larger role in 2010.

Adam Straith: Signed for the residency program. One of the first players to go out on loan. Cottbus likes him, sign him. He grows into first team minutes at a decent level and the Whitecaps make some money. Real money will be made if he is sold on in the future.

Ethan Gage: Signs with the program and bursts his way onto the senior team in the 2008 playoff run. Features regularily in 2009 until a tet a tet with Teitur sees him fall out of the lineup. He goes over to Europe with a couple of trials at Wolfsburg and Frankfurt. Now he is back with the senior team and will be fighting for his spot in a deep central midfield that includes Nash, Sanchez, Steele.

Alex Semenets: Signs with the program. Made his way through the PDL team. Went to Germany on trial at Hoffenheim and 1 other club which I can not remember. Spent the end of last season on the fringes of the Whitecaps senior team. On the roster for this season and it will most likely be a make or break year for him.

No path has been the same for any of these players. Include Philippe Davies, Dever Orgill and Cornelius Stewart who are all expected to see time with the senior team this season and I would say their record of moving players up has been pretty impressive. Remember, the program is only 2 and a half years old. I give credit to Niendorf for a lot of this. Thus, not only am I sad, but worried to see him go.

[Guest Ed]

Well put. I agree with you 100%.

[El Hombre]

A little bit more on Niendorf's exit: Vancouver Province

[Guest Ed]

Great quote from Lenny Bobbaduzzi. Asked about how the loss of TN' s deep connections with German pro soccer, Lenny says that they will be alright as Tom Soehn "speaks German".

One Tom has a DFB pro coaching license, attending courses with some of the top team managers in the Bundesliga. The other Tom knows how to order schnitzel.

[loyola]

After reading that article I think FK had a point when he suggested the way they send their players to Europecould've been at the center of this.

[jpg75]

I'm not so sure about that, it seems to me the Caps are going to try and continue down that road:

"Lenarduzzi said he wasn't concerned about losing Niendorf's deep contact base in Germany. Director of soccer operations Tommy Soehn, Lenarduzzi said, speaks German and has already "picked up the ball in terms of connecting with whoever the contacts were at various clubs."

I guess we'll see what happens this Fall.

Until they have a development bridge between residency and the first team that is of a higher playing level than PDL i think this is their best bet for the prospects who can't make the immediate leap.

[Free kick]

A little bit more on Niendorf's exit: Vancouver Province

Wow! the quote in that piece:

"As for Niendorf, I can't say yet with absolute authority, but I've heard from a couple of players that he and the club didn't see eye-to-eye on what was best for them. He wanted to send them to Europe and the club wanted to keep them for the first team."

Here I am thousands of miles away from the scene reading between the lines of these stories and it looks like I hit the bull eye. Also, it looks like more people within the whitecaps organization share the views that I expressed earlier in this thread. As for Tom Soehn? what makes us say that he is less qualified than TN?