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Record vs. men's teams


themodelcitizen

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I recently started a heated debate with friends based on my assertion that I could get a group of guys together to play, and beat, the Canadian women's soccer team in a hypothetical match. Not sure why it came up. I could be way off, but the team would, in theory, have a couple CSL-quality players, some rank amateurs, and some guys in their early to late 20s who might have had the skill to successfully trial in Europe as a youngster but never did because of injuries/circumstances, and have played in mens leagues/WOSL-quality leagues since. Obviously the few amateurs would have to train for a while to get to match fitness.

I remember years ago, maybe in the early 2000s, the women's national team was on a tour in Morocco (?) and lost heavily to a local u-19 boys side. I was trying to bring this out in support of my argument but I can't find a link to it for the life of me. I know players like Marta and Christine Sinclair are far better than most of the guys I could bring out, but surely they're aberrations?

Am I way off here? Helplessly chauvinistic or just a realist? Any experts on the womens game care to comment? This is by no means a shot at the womens game and I have a lot of respect for them as professionals, and fully expect Christine Sinclair would get a goal or two, just that the differences between the sexes in terms of fitness and pace (especially with sustained periods of sprinting) would really show over 90 minutes and that this hypothetical team would win a close-fought match.

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Shortly after the mid-teen male growth period women cannot compensate for the speed and power of men. It's two different sets of engineering. National women's teams often train with U15 boys. There are aberrations of older teams, or individual players pushing the envelope, but it is predominately if not always in training and not full tooth and nail competition.

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Guest xchromosomex

That's terrible! I guess you would also say that a team of blacks could never win against white people? Well I'm sorry but I think that's racist and wrong. Also if brute strength is so important why are male soccer players so girly compared to male football players, hockey players etc? Actually in soccer strategy is more important and studies show that women are better at strategy, teamwork, thinking, ect. I play on a womens team and we could beat men any day!

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That's terrible! I guess you would also say that a team of blacks could never win against white people? Well I'm sorry but I think that's racist and wrong. Also if brute strength is so important why are male soccer players so girly compared to male football players, hockey players etc? Actually in soccer strategy is more important and studies show that women are better at strategy, teamwork, thinking, ect. I play on a womens team and we could beat men any day!

Well, it's not racist, and ignoring any questions of genetic differences between races, we're just looking at the observable, physical differences between men and women. Would you put a man against a woman of the same weight in a boxing ring?

Also if brute strength is so important why are male soccer players so girly compared to male football players, hockey players etc?

Soccer requires different skills than the sports you mentioned, including a lot more stamina. Soccer players don't just throw their weight around for a few minutes at a time like the athletes you mentioned, they have to last for 90 minutes of action. It's like how marathon runners and cyclists have smaller physiques but incredible fitness.

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Guest xchromosomex
Would you put a man against a woman of the same weight in a boxing ring?
No of course not. You sound like you're advocating violence against women, which is awful.

Soccer requires different skills than the sports you mentioned, including a lot more stamina. Soccer players don't just throw their weight around for a few minutes at a time like the athletes you mentioned, they have to last for 90 minutes of action. It's like how marathon runners and cyclists have smaller physiques but incredible fitness.
Exactly! And women have better stamina, that's why they'd win in the soccer game. I'm not exactly sure how this works but basically women have different genes for fat storage, it holds more energy and burns longer, scientists have proven it, that's why women have all the long distance marathon records.

themodelcitizen have you seen "She's the man"? It's a documentary about a girl who has to pretend to be a boy to play on their soccer team even though she's better than them. It really shows how many people are blinded by their predjudice (sp?) about gender. I bet there's even women on lots of "men's" soccer teams and you don't even know you're cheering for them!

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No of course not. You sound like you're advocating violence against women, which is awful.

Exactly! And women have better stamina, that's why they'd win in the soccer game. I'm not exactly sure how this works but basically women have different genes for fat storage, it holds more energy and burns longer, scientists have proven it, that's why women have all the long distance marathon records.

themodelcitizen have you seen "She's the man"? It's a documentary about a girl who has to pretend to be a boy to play on their soccer team even though she's better than them. It really shows how many people are blinded by their predjudice (sp?) about gender. I bet there's even women on lots of "men's" soccer teams and you don't even know you're cheering for them!

For the 5K and 10K marathons, men have much greater records. You must realize that we're not disparaging women or the women's game at all, merely highlighting the physical differences present between the sexes for the purposes of this discussion that I somewhat naively started. No one in their right mind would sanction a mens vs womens competitive game, we're just talking in the hypothetical about what might happen based on a (quite possibly alcohol-inspired) debate amongst friends.

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Exactly! And women have better stamina, that's why they'd win in the soccer game. I'm not exactly sure how this works but basically women have different genes for fat storage, it holds more energy and burns longer, scientists have proven it, that's why women have all the long distance marathon records.

Um, no. There is not a single distance in athletics in which the women's world record is faster than the men's.

You're also way off on the brute force thing. While soccer players do not rely solely on it, it does play a huge part. Explosiveness, shot power, leaping ability, strength to hold off defenders, flat out speed... all of those are facets of "brute strength" and all are absolutely essential to be able to compete at the top level. This is why soccer players spend a ton of time doing strength training in addition to on-the-field tactical and endurance work..

It is not sexist or chauvinistic to accept that women and men are built differently. It's just nature and evolution. The top women in any sporting field, while being better than probably 90% of the men of the world, will never outperform the top men in that same sport.

And modelcitizen, a marathon refers to only one distance, and that is a 42.2km. Anything more than that distance is known as an ultra-marathon, anything less is simply known by the distance itself (ie. 5km race, 10km, etc.) except for the half-marathon.

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Um, no. There is not a single distance in athletics in which the women's world record is faster than the men's.

You're also way off on the brute force thing. While soccer players do not rely solely on it, it does play a huge part. Explosiveness, shot power, leaping ability, strength to hold off defenders, flat out speed... all of those are facets of "brute strength" and all are absolutely essential to be able to compete at the top level. This is why soccer players spend a ton of time doing strength training in addition to on-the-field tactical and endurance work..

It is not sexist or chauvinistic to accept that women and men are built differently. It's just nature and evolution. The top women in any sporting field, while being better than probably 90% of the men of the world, will never outperform the top men in that same sport.

And modelcitizen, a marathon refers to only one distance, and that is a 42.2km. Anything more than that distance is known as an ultra-marathon, anything less is simply known by the distance itself (ie. 5km race, 10km, etc.) except for the half-marathon.

So the real question is, could me and my mates beat the Canadian WMNT based on my information in the first post?

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But violence against men is ok? Women's endurance edge kicks in post-marathon time/distance which is well beyond a soccer game. The Boston marathon winner ran in two hours. The fastest woman was another half hour later. At the high end of soccer the difference is 10% speed and 15% strength. Even in a static sport where strength is marginalized like golf no woman has ever made the cut in a PGA event. Could it happen? Could a team of women win the World Cup? The Stanley Cup? The Super Bowl? Sure. Like Jeff Goldblum intimated in Jurassic Park, the laws of science are chaotic and imperfect. The genetic wormhole could exist. Just not something you want to take your wallet to Vegas with.

citizen - the right answer is we'll never know. Especially fitting in patsies on the field. If you've never played the game you can be a negative as much as a positive around skilled opponents.

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Guest xchromosomex

Umm have you men realized you're talking about U17, 15, etc. boys like they're super strong well-oiled robots? Maybe I'm bias because I'm a mom but uhhhh, have you ever met a teenage boy? They're not athletes, they're dumb clumsy zit factories! I know y'all are old (except themodelcitizen) but think WAYYY back to when you were in highschool and all the girls were taller and more graceful and they got way better marks than you and explain how you could ever beat them on the 'pitch' (soccer field).

Rudy, have you ever read a book on evolution? Scientists now know that in Africa (where humans evolved) women did all the hunting and men just sat on their a**. Does that remind you of anything? lol

themodelcitizen, thanks for the apology. I'm sorry I got so frustrated with you earlier, it's just that I thought you might be a coach or something. Now that I realize you're just a teenager just having arguments with your "buds" I'm much calmer. Maybe if you ever have a daughter and you have to explain to her why she's "sucky" according to the boys you might understand.

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Umm have you men realized you're talking about U17, 15, etc. boys like they're super strong well-oiled robots? Maybe I'm bias because I'm a mom but uhhhh, have you ever met a teenage boy? They're not athletes, they're dumb clumsy zit factories! I know y'all are old (except themodelcitizen) but think WAYYY back to when you were in highschool and all the girls were taller and more graceful and they got way better marks than you and explain how you could ever beat them on the 'pitch' (soccer field).

Rudy, have you ever read a book on evolution? Scientists now know that in Africa (where humans evolved) women did all the hunting and men just sat on their a**. Does that remind you of anything? lol

themodelcitizen, thanks for the apology. I'm sorry I got so frustrated with you earlier, it's just that I thought you might be a coach or something. Now that I realize you're just a teenager just having arguments with your "buds" I'm much calmer. Maybe if you ever have a daughter and you have to explain to her why she's "sucky" according to the boys you might understand.

I'm mid-20s. Gotta run to play an indoor game but I'll try to reply to the rest of your points later.

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No of course not. You sound like you're advocating violence against women, which is awful.

Exactly! And women have better stamina, that's why they'd win in the soccer game. I'm not exactly sure how this works but basically women have different genes for fat storage, it holds more energy and burns longer, scientists have proven it, that's why women have all the long distance marathon records.

themodelcitizen have you seen "She's the man"? It's a documentary about a girl who has to pretend to be a boy to play on their soccer team even though she's better than them. It really shows how many people are blinded by their predjudice (sp?) about gender. I bet there's even women on lots of "men's" soccer teams and you don't even know you're cheering for them!

I'm curious but is the 'documentary' you're talking about the Disney film starring Amanda Bynes?

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Umm have you men realized you're talking about U17, 15, etc. boys like they're super strong well-oiled robots? Maybe I'm bias because I'm a mom but uhhhh, have you ever met a teenage boy? They're not athletes, they're dumb clumsy zit factories! I know y'all are old (except themodelcitizen) but think WAYYY back to when you were in highschool and all the girls were taller and more graceful and they got way better marks than you and explain how you could ever beat them on the 'pitch' (soccer field).

Rudy, have you ever read a book on evolution? Scientists now know that in Africa (where humans evolved) women did all the hunting and men just sat on their a**. Does that remind you of anything? lol

themodelcitizen, thanks for the apology. I'm sorry I got so frustrated with you earlier, it's just that I thought you might be a coach or something. Now that I realize you're just a teenager just having arguments with your "buds" I'm much calmer. Maybe if you ever have a daughter and you have to explain to her why she's "sucky" according to the boys you might understand.

As someone who's a currently a 'dumb clumsy boy' I'm quite offended at your generalization and unfair stereotyping of all young men.

Really? By no means are we advocating that women are 'sucky' at sports, we are simply evaluating the physical advantages that men have in sports.

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Umm have you men realized you're talking about U17, 15, etc. boys like they're super strong well-oiled robots? Maybe I'm bias because I'm a mom but uhhhh, have you ever met a teenage boy? They're not athletes, they're dumb clumsy zit factories! I know y'all are old (except themodelcitizen) but think WAYYY back to when you were in highschool and all the girls were taller and more graceful and they got way better marks than you and explain how you could ever beat them on the 'pitch' (soccer field).

Rudy, have you ever read a book on evolution? Scientists now know that in Africa (where humans evolved) women did all the hunting and men just sat on their a**. Does that remind you of anything? lol

themodelcitizen, thanks for the apology. I'm sorry I got so frustrated with you earlier, it's just that I thought you might be a coach or something. Now that I realize you're just a teenager just having arguments with your "buds" I'm much calmer. Maybe if you ever have a daughter and you have to explain to her why she's "sucky" according to the boys you might understand.

Dangerous to generalise about a huge and diverse continent like Africa but at least you're correct in your assertion that research suggests humans first evolved there. However having grown up in Africa I suggest you're wrong in your characterisation of the roles of men and women. Typically the men were the hunters and the women raised children and were the gatherers.
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As someone who's a currently a 'dumb clumsy boy' I'm quite offended at your generalization and unfair stereotyping of all young men.

Really? By no means are we advocating that women are 'sucky' at sports, we are simply evaluating the physical advantages that men have in sports.

Don't rise to the bait. This poster is either just stupid, ignorant (probably both) or taking the mickey.
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Rudy, have you ever read a book on evolution? Scientists now know that in Africa (where humans evolved) women did all the hunting and men just sat on their a**. Does that remind you of anything? lol

Yuou seem very eager to inundate us with 'facts' that only you seem to be privy to.

First it was that females were "scientifically-proven" to have more endurance than men and therefore have all the long distance records, which I politely dismissed as beyond absurd. Now you're claiming that women were the hunter-gatherers, while in fact it was actually the men. This is supported by these books on evolution that you so arrogantly assume I've never read. If women were the hunters as you claim, why did men evolve to be the stronger, faster and bigger of the two genders? How does that make a lick of sense at all?

If you're going to throw around such dubious claims, perhaps try providing at least one single link to such studies. I know you can't prove that women are faster marathon runners, so I'll give you the opportunity to prove this one instead. You're on the clock.

FWIW, You seem hellbent on taking offence to a simple evolutionary fact that males are engineered to be bigger, stronger and faster than women. This is not chauvanistic, it is merely the way of life. No one here has claimed that either gender is "better" than the other, so please get off your high horse.

Oh and FYI, in high school the U14 boys club team I was on would regularly scrimmage against the varsity girls squad filled with 17 and 18 year old young women (we shared a coach) and we would rout them with relative ease most of the time.

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Kristina Kiss said that while the national team was training they often played scrimmages against local U-21 men's teams and almost always lost. That's not saying the girls are at a lower technical level than U-21 men's teams, its just men are stronger and faster.

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Guest xchromosomex
I'm curious but is the 'documentary' you're talking about the Disney film starring Amanda Bynes?

I think that's "She's all that." I'm talking about "She's the man."

As someone who's a currently a 'dumb clumsy boy' I'm quite offended at your generalization and unfair stereotyping of all young men.

Well everyone else keeps saying it's MY problem when I get offended, and apparently if you don't mean to offend somebody, it doesn't count and that person isn't allowed to get offended. But just to show I can be the "bigger woman" let me say I'm sorry you got offended. Even though I didn't mean to.

Dangerous to generalise about a huge and diverse continent like Africa but at least you're correct in your assertion that research suggests humans first evolved there. However having grown up in Africa I suggest you're wrong in your characterisation of the roles of men and women. Typically the men were the hunters and the women raised children and were the gatherers.

Ummm.... How friggin old are you? Are you that guy in your avatar? Evolution takes trillions of years so I don't think your experience is relevant. As if you have the gall to call ME stupid and ignorant.

Yuou seem very eager to inundate us with facts

I'm sorry for filling you with facts Rudy :). What books about evolution have you read?

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I think that's "She's all that." I'm talking about "She's the man."

No I am talking about the film She's the Man starring Amanda Bynes and Channing Tatum.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0454945/

She's All That is also a Hollywood film starring Freddie Prinze Jr.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0160862/

Can you understand now why we consider you ignorant and are questioning your 'facts'.

If you have a legitimate opinion please back up what you say with reputable sources.

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xchromosomex - I am not sure if you are serious in your arguments, or if you are just trying to push buttons. Anyway...

I did a quick google and found a few mentions of our WNT playing boys teams. Rhian Wilkinson said "Yesterday, we played the Abbottsford Under 18 boys and we tied them 1-1." and Karina Leblanc said "...we had a tough scrimmage in Abbotsford. We faced a boys team we’d played in January and March camps, and we knew we were in for a battle. They’re strong, fast and competitive, just the kind of opposition we need to prep us for the Germans.".

I think I brought my daughter to the game Rhian mentioned. I have to admit, I went to the game expecting the ladies to win, and I was initially somewhat taken back that they didn't. However, on reflection, for many of the reasons brought up here - the results make sense. There are simply biological differences between the 2 genders that are often too much for training and skill to overcome. The fact that our WNT can loose to boys is nothing to be ashamed of, and its not any reason to think less of thier skill. I suspect the US or Germain teams would be challenged as well. There are many things that the typical girl can beat the typical boy at. One gender is not better than the other. They are just different.

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