Ice hockey starts to slip as Canadians also fall for soccer (from FT UK)

[the biologist]

^ Why don't you just support another team ? With all this expansion thing, it's not like we don't have that much of a choice...

As for the NHL, I kinda agree with what you said, but don't forget even though the "new" NHL is not what it used to be right after the lockout, it's still better than the "Hasek's golden years" era.

[Macksam]

I disagree. Last season's playoffs were the best ever since 1994. The product is at an all time high right now.

[earlimus]

I can't say I watched a single game ^^^^, but I don't think the two have to correlate. Having a great playoffs doesn't mean the NHL isn't a clownshow.

Plus... aside from any 7th game tie breakers (I'm not even sure if there were), there weren't any shootouts.

And I can't switch teams biologist. I was born a loser, and I'll die a loser. I mean Leafs fan. I was born a Leafs fan.

[Guest Ed]

I think you have been in Spain too long and need to return to nurse your hockey brain back to health. WTF is a 7th game tie breaker? There are no shootouts in the playoffs, ever. You have me confused.

[earlimus]

My apologies, I guess all of those fox lasers did some damage to my head. I was referring to the point when two teams are tied with three wins a piece in a 7 game playoff, and then go into extra time. But no... they don't ever do a shootout do they? They just keep on playing until someone scores.

Why DO they play those silly little shootouts during the season then? Right... because the NHL is a joke.

[the biologist]

It's funny to see how one actually is the opposite of the other. Soccer doesn't have SO in season play but does in the playoffs (you can even win the WC on SO). On the other hand, hockey has SO in regular season but doesn't in playoffs. I for myself like it better with no SO at all, although I must admit it's always exciting to watch, but it's not a fair way to end a game IMO. So for this reason I prefer the NHL version because I think it's worse to lose a KO game in SO than a regular season one.

[Juby]

they made it so their is no tie (I think it was too fix some points problems that came from giving a point for making it to OT) and as exciting as a long sudden death can be, I think it's probably too much of a strain for the players to have to compete in a 5OT game during the regular season (and they'd be dead on the ice if that happened 2 or 3 times one week.

edit: and I agree with biologist to a fair degree, I cannot stand to see meaningful games decided on penalties, I'd rather see the team ruin itself for the next round and have it decided by in game football then just wind up giving it to the germans (joke, they don't benefit from EVERY shootout, just the ones their in). Just seems like such a waste, like if in Basketball to call a game that was going on forever could you imagine if they decided to play 21 for it?

[Macksam]

I would like to see continuous overtime in the World Cup.

[earlimus]

Some valid points. Electing how to deciede games that are tied in situations like the World Cup will always be a contentious issue, however it's another BIG conversation and wasn't my initial point.

During the season there is no need for this issue to be raised. We have another option. It's calld a tie. 1 point for each team. It's been that way (was that way) since the beginning of hockey, and soccer as well.

Yes, shootouts are kinda cool. So would a slam dunk competition at the end of every basketball game. So would watching Lionel Messi do an amazing skills competition, or the best free kick takers from either side show us what they can do. I know I'd like a lapdance from the Raptor's girls every time I visited the ACC. The point is all of these things (including the Raptors girls) compose one little part of a great sport, and don't represent the game itself as a whole. A tie is a valid outcome in a hockey game. Always has been.

These shootouts are another example of that little turd Bateman doing whatever he thinks might gain another 100,000 viewers in southern states that have little to no interest in ice hockey, and absolutely crapping on any tradition or aspect of the game that stands in his way. It embarrasses me as a hockey fan, and as a Canadian. It's just my opinion, some people like it.

[Guest Ed]

Another article to put the boots to that Dutch guy's wacky view.

http://www.faceoff.com/story.html?id=55b18547-8687-42ba-b986-e3dd252ee0ca

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

God forbid that soccer fans posting on a soccer message board would ever want their sport to be the most popular. :confused: One important cultural change that was left out of Simon Kuiper's article is the impact of the arrival of the internet and digital cable. 20 or 30 years ago it was very difficult to follow the fortunes of the soccer team you supported overseas after moving to Canada so TV channels like the CBC and CTV very much set the agenda of what sports teams recent immigrants could follow closely. Back in the late 80s and early 90s I followed the fortunes of the Blue Jays and Maple Leafs on a daily basis not because I really liked either sport but simply because there wasn't much option most of the time. Fast forward to 2010 and changes in technology have made it much easier to follow what is happening in a niche sport like soccer in a Canadian context and to watch a wide range of overseas soccer leagues and as a result I would now struggle to name more than a handful of Blue Jays and Maple Leafs players. I've read articles in which Richard Peddie and/or Paul Beirne have explained that MLSE realized that MLS could be a huge success in Toronto when they added up the number of people watching various overseas soccer leagues and found that collectively there was a much larger market for soccer than they would have guessed at the outset so I suspect I'm not alone in that.

[gigi riva]

In my hometown I am seeing more Soccer pitches constructed than Ball diamonds, Soccer will never overtake Hockey here in Canada but it will takeover Baseball and Football in 5 to 10 years time.

[Macksam]

I've read articles in which Richard Peddie and/or Paul Beirne have explained that MLSE realized that MLS could be a huge success in Toronto when they added up the number of people watching various overseas soccer leagues and found that collectively there was a much larger market for soccer than they would have guessed at the outset so I suspect I'm not alone in that.

They also found that out of all the cities in the world, the most soccer on TV was avialable in Toronto.

[TFC07]

This article only can be apply to Toronto. Basketball (soccer isn’t gaining that much compare to basketball in Toronto) is taking over the city while hockey is declining due to immigration and increase non-whites (note: I am ONLY talking about immigrants and non-whites in Toronto, not rest of Canada. We got our own culture. So don’t apply your town’s non-whites and immigrants to the ones living in Toronto). In Toronto, hockey is viewed as a white man sport (there was an article on this on the SUN). Also there is STRONG hate for hockey in Toronto by non-whites thanks to our media who shove hockey down our throats. You can see this hate a lot on basketball boards. Also there was survey done by the Star that stated basketball/NBA was most popular sport in Toronto in teen age group. Soccer came second.

Even though hockey will remain the number one sport in Canada, it doesn’t mean it will be number one sport in Toronto. I get the feeling author who wrote this article was assuming what is going on in Toronto is going on rest of Canada as well.

[Macksam]

This article only can be apply to Toronto. Basketball (soccer isn’t gaining that much compare to basketball in Toronto) is taking over the city while hockey is declining due to immigration and increase non-whites (note: I am ONLY talking about immigrants and non-whites in Toronto, not rest of Canada. We got our own culture. So don’t apply your town’s non-whites and immigrants to the ones living in Toronto). In Toronto, hockey is viewed as a white man sport (there was an article on this on the SUN). Also there is STRONG hate for hockey in Toronto by non-whites thanks to our media who shove hockey down our throats. You can see this hate a lot on basketball boards. Also there was survey done by the Star that stated basketball/NBA was most popular sport in Toronto in teen age group. Soccer came second.

Even though hockey will remain the number one sport in Canada, it doesn’t mean it will be number one sport in Toronto. I get the feeling author who wrote this article was assuming what is going on in Toronto is going on rest of Canada as well.

I wouldn't say all non-whites. There may be strong hate (if even that) amongst Asians and blacks in Toronto, but that's not even remotely true with East Indians and West Asians like Arabs and Persians. These "non-white" groups actually like hockey in Toronto. That's not to say they don't like basketball as they do enjoy that sport as well.

As for that survey amongst teens you were talking about, it was just a small sample of the population. If you took a survey of all the teens in the GTA, the percentages of what sport was followed would be different. On top of that, the Leafs sucked at the time of that survey while the Raptors, even though they weren't doing well, still had a decent team at the time as they do now.

[Juby]

edit: I was replying to TFC07 as well

most people who have grandiose opinions about 'non-whites' don't actually know any (If anything, from what I remember growing up in a rural community, the lone black kid tends to be an over achiever because he won't be 'the black guy' that all the hillbillies who don't know any black people (just regurgitating what their moron dad said without thinking) think they should be, and I really don't think their are a bunch of rural immigrants and visible minorities ruining it for the rest, I think the racist's are just moron's who like to pretend for a second they know what their talking about. (Oddly enough, it's in areas like this where it's not an issue that people are so convinced their being screwed by affirmative action, soooo stupid)

anyways, besides all that, I think the article is just showing part of a trend and you were right to point out basketball but it's been clear for like a decadish that soccer and basketball are on the rise (thank god too, these are serious international prestige sports that almost everyone participates, and their probably the cheapest team game so a poor country is still not completely screwed) at a cost of baseball and maybe CFL (it's probably not declining but it probably peaked). I don't think Hockey's in decline though, not even in Toronto (it's obviously in more of a competition though) but I can't help but think of how few players move on to the NHL from hockey mad northern ontario (where I'm from, Renfrew county (I think it's got somewhere between 50 000 - 100 000, the county not the town), I'm pretty sure you have to go back to Ted Lindsay to find a serious star, here in Toronto, it's like every second high school has a current NHLer). And I find a tonne of second generation canadian LOVE HOCKEY, sometimes they don't get into till late teens (so career wise their out) but they pass that on.

From what I hear, racist attitudes from stupid kids is probably the biggest reason visible minorities have some trouble breaking in (it's so weird though, in a contact sport, where trash talk is incessant, alot of kids seem too stupid to embarress someone for how they act (effeminate skating, limpwrist stick holding, elbowing/kneeing/choping over fair contact etc, these things shame players), this is probably a sign that there parents are imbeciles and that the kids probably hopeless (ie, I'll let you guys finish the joke but when two obese people have children, the kid will almost guareenteed have to watch their weight when they grow up, so when two moron's have kids....)

[Rivaldo]

They also found that out of all the cities in the world, the most soccer on TV was avialable in Toronto.

How is Toronto any different from the rest of Canada in that regard? I think the USA probably has us beat, these days.

[Macksam]

How is Toronto any different from the rest of Canada in that regard? I think the USA probably has us beat, these days.

Not at all.

[jpg75]

^ Yes they do. The amount of futbol available in the United States is ridiculous! They have access to pretty much everything we have and then some:

Setanta

Gol TV

Fox Soccer Channel

Fox Sports en Espanol

ESPN Deportes

T y C

CentroAmerica

Galavision

TV Azteca

Telemundo

Telefutura

PFC International

Ecuavisa

RAI

TV Chile

TeleCentro

TV Colombiano

[canucklefan]

^ Yes they do. The amount of futbol available in the United States is ridiculous! They have access to pretty much everything we have and then some:

Setanta

Gol TV

Fox Soccer Channel

Fox Sports en Espanol

ESPN Deportes

T y C

CentroAmerica

Galavision

TV Azteca

Telemundo

Telefutura

PFC International

Ecuavisa

RAI

TV Chile

TeleCentro

TV Colombiano

Other places have even less access than Toronto. I'd love to have here in Quebec City, Fox Sports en espanol and Fox Soccer channel since Fox Sports World Canada shows less live games than before.

[jpg75]

Canucklefan, those channels i listed are ones available in the US, not Toronto.

For example, the following channels are not available in Canada:

Fox Soccer Channel

Fox Sports en Espanol (Copa Libertadores)

ESPN Deportes (Dutch League)

T y C (Multiple Argentine League)

CentroAmerica (Costa Rican League)

Galavision (Mexican)

Telemundo (Mexican)

Telefutura (Mexican)

PFC International (Brasilian)

Ecuavisa (Ecuadorean League)

TeleCentro (Honduran and El Salvador)

TV Colombiano (Colombia)

We do not get Copa Libertadores coverage here, in the States they do! We get one Argentine game, they get atleast 3 a week. No Costa Rican coverage here, no Dutch league, no Ecuadorean, no Honduran, no Salvadorean. You can get 2 Mexican games on TV Azteca, but in the States they get 6 games on Saturdays. You can watch MFL from 4pm until midnight if you want to. We get Brasilian games on GolTv, they get more on PFC.

Our one saving grace is GolTv and it's Colombian league coverage, about on par with the coverage in the States. Oh, and TV Chile is the same.

[canucklefan]

My bad, I misunterstood you. Still, it would be nice to have some of these channels.

[Macksam]

^ Yes they do. The amount of futbol available in the United States is ridiculous! They have access to pretty much everything we have and then some:

Setanta

Gol TV

Fox Soccer Channel

Fox Sports en Espanol

ESPN Deportes

T y C

CentroAmerica

Galavision

TV Azteca

Telemundo

Telefutura

PFC International

Ecuavisa

RAI

TV Chile

TeleCentro

TV Colombiano

That's satellite getting into the picture. The study was based off cable, which for Americans mean no soccer.

[jpg75]

They also found that out of all the cities in the world, the most soccer on TV was available in Toronto.

Study or not, your statement was incorrect. There is more soccer available on TV (Cable or Satellite) in the US then in Toronto.

Appears the study is incorrect also, a quick check of the listings for the major cable companies in major urban US centres reveals that most if not all these channels with soccer are available on cable:

http://www.fancast.com/comcast-tv-listings (try Boston - 02113, DC - 20003, Miami - 33173)

http://tvlistings.timewarnercable.com/tvListings/ (try NYC - 10004 and LA - 90003)

Also have to say, i don't really see the relevance of a study where you exclude satellite service. Why differentiate the connection type when it's the medium that is important? Both services are relatively equal in price and DISH and DirecTV have greater availablity in most parts of the US than cable. The same can be said in parts of rural Canada where the cable option does not exist.

[Macksam]

It's wasn't my statement. It was MLSE's finding.