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Jamaica - Canada Jan 31


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This past GC featured young guys (Jakovic, Jackson, Johnson, De Jong, Hainault, Peters) who should be important members of the squad, injury and form issues aside, in this next WCQ . A guy with the defensive skills of Attakora, IMO, should be getting selected starting in January. And we'll see other young guys come through and make a big impression. This program absolutely needs it, no question about it.

My big thing is that everyone involved in the program is on notice. There were a lot of so-called "key" players under 30 who sh*t the bed as much as the 30+ guys did during the last disastrous WCQ, so I have no problem with lighting a fire under their collective asses, and bringing in new faces is the way to do so.

As much as I scratch my head at some of the recent player selections of 30+ guys who I think should be put out to pasture, I also don't think every young player in the future playing pool has international upside. Hart has looked at some younger guys in the past year and has decided they weren't ready for the task at hand. He'll look at some more this year and sort through who he thinks has the chops and who doesn't. And I'm hoping he'll be saying "Thank you for your service but we are going in a different direction now" to a number of veterans.

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Another reason why we still need to play our best players available is that we need to get into a good FIFA ranking position for 2011/2012 when the draw will take place.

While I think we need to take a look at some inexperienced players and try to get some competition for the veteran, we also can't used our friendlies only as a development/experiment tool. We need to get some results from those games.

The only player called recently who I think shouldn't be called anymore is Hastings. I'm fine with the rest but I would specially like to see Stalteri be challenge by the younger guys like Nana and Nik L (maybe Straith as well).

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You really never know what a team will look like in a few years. We can speculate on our core but its exciting to know that there will be some guy who steps up in a position. Comparing now to 2012 is like comparing 2005 to 2008. In 2005 Hainault, De Jong, Issey all hadn't been capped and guys who ended up being starters were just fringe players (Gerba, Serioux). So Im expecting to see someone step up and be a starter whether that is Edgar, Haber, Attakora, Straith or whoever

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quote:Originally posted by BearcatSA

This past GC featured young guys (Jakovic, Jackson, Johnson, De Jong, Hainault, Peters) who should be important members of the squad, injury and form issues aside, in this next WCQ . A guy with the defensive skills of Attakora, IMO, should be getting selected starting in January. And we'll see other young guys come through and make a big impression. This program absolutely needs it, no question about it.

My big thing is that everyone involved in the program is on notice. There were a lot of so-called "key" players under 30 who sh*t the bed as much as the 30+ guys did during the last disastrous WCQ, so I have no problem with lighting a fire under their collective asses, and bringing in new faces is the way to do so.

As much as I scratch my head at some of the recent player selections of 30+ guys who I think should be put out to pasture, I also don't think every young player in the future playing pool has international upside. Hart has looked at some younger guys in the past year and has decided they weren't ready for the task at hand. He'll look at some more this year and sort through who he thinks has the chops and who doesn't. And I'm hoping he'll be saying "Thank you for your service but we are going in a different direction now" to a number of veterans.

I don't disagree with a single word you've written. For qualifying last time around, we had 5, maybe 6 players who were good enough - if they were adequately prepared and used effectively - to start for a team with a reasonable hope of qualifying for the World Cup out of CONCACAF. We badly need upgrades in a number of positions - some of which are indeed manned by under 30s - and we need to start, IMO, identifying them sooner rather than later.

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quote:Originally posted by BearcatSA

This past GC featured young guys (Jakovic, Jackson, Johnson, De Jong, Hainault, Peters) who should be important members of the squad, injury and form issues aside, in this next WCQ . A guy with the defensive skills of Attakora, IMO, should be getting selected starting in January. And we'll see other young guys come through and make a big impression. This program absolutely needs it, no question about it.

My big thing is that everyone involved in the program is on notice. There were a lot of so-called "key" players under 30 who sh*t the bed as much as the 30+ guys did during the last disastrous WCQ, so I have no problem with lighting a fire under their collective asses, and bringing in new faces is the way to do so.

As much as I scratch my head at some of the recent player selections of 30+ guys who I think should be put out to pasture, I also don't think every young player in the future playing pool has international upside. Hart has looked at some younger guys in the past year and has decided they weren't ready for the task at hand. He'll look at some more this year and sort through who he thinks has the chops and who doesn't. And I'm hoping he'll be saying "Thank you for your service but we are going in a different direction now" to a number of veterans.

I don't disagree with a single word you've written. For qualifying last time around, we had 5, maybe 6 players who were good enough - if they were adequately prepared and used effectively - to start for a team with a reasonable hope of qualifying for the World Cup out of CONCACAF. We badly need upgrades in a number of positions - some of which are indeed manned by under 30s - and we need to start, IMO, identifying them sooner rather than later.

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quote:Originally posted by loyola

Another reason why we still need to play our best players available is that we need to get into a good FIFA ranking position for 2011/2012 when the draw will take place.

While I think we need to take a look at some inexperienced players and try to get some competition for the veteran, we also can't used our friendlies only as a development/experiment tool. We need to get some results from those games.

Even assuming that the seeding process will be fairly determined - which I don't believe, but others might - our FIFA ranking in 2011/12 is less important than our ability to beat teams on the pitch, when it matters, in 2012. We hit as high as third (I believe, it might have been 4th) in the region in the run up to the last qualifying draw, and still finished 4th in our semi-final group with the marbles on the line. So, my thinking is that FIFA ranking is a secondary consideration.

I am expecting that to make the hex, we will have to beat at least one of the six who made the hex, and will have to contend with one of Jamiaca, Guatemala or Panama as well in the semi's (i.e. we will get at least 2 of the hex participants from this go around). I honestly don't see seedings changing that. I guess one can dream of the USA or Mexico or Honduras - Canada - 2 minnow scenario, but I have a hard time seeing that come to pass no matter our ranking.

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Gordon, I wanted to get back on my example of Honduras but I forgot in my last reply. I think Honduras is a good example of a team who has used with good effect some older guys (Pavon, Guevara and Turcios). Those guys had a big part to play in the qualification of Honduras. That's why I'm not sure why we should not keep a Radz or a Stalteri (if there's no one developing into a better RB) around just because we failed with them in the past.

IMO, it's up to the younger players to prove they have a place and so far I think Hart has given them a chance (see jpg75 post).

As for the FIFA rankings, I agree it's secondary but it's there and if we can get the third seed, we could be in a good position to have an easy group just like CR had this year. That being said, your are completly right when you say that we need to learn how to beat the best teams on the pitch.

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quote:Originally posted by Gordon

I don't disagree with a single word you've written. For qualifying last time around, we had 5, maybe 6 players who were good enough - if they were adequately prepared and used effectively - to start for a team with a reasonable hope of qualifying for the World Cup out of CONCACAF. We badly need upgrades in a number of positions - some of which are indeed manned by under 30s - and we need to start, IMO, identifying them sooner rather than later.

And I believe that to be the big chunk of Hart's mandate, and based on what I've seen for the most part I think he's on the right track. Similar to loyola's view, I just think that there are some guys who will be on the wrong side of 30 come 2012 yet who will be important squad depth role players, if not starters. And some young guys, who are highly touted now by some to be leading our team two years from now, will drop down the depth chart to be replaced by other young but currently much less heralded candidates.

And all the while we'll be hotly debating Hart's selection decision over the next two years of build up. And that's why I enjoy reading and participating so much in this forum!:)

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There have been some different posters with different ideas on the cutoff on who should eb called. So to clarify, my view is that there should be no one currently 30 or older called for the next couple of years. I do not support not calling anyone who will be 30 or older at the start of the next qualifying cycle as undoubtedly, guys like Klukowski, DeGuzman and Friend (IMO) will be key performers and will be 30 or so when the next qualifying cycle starts. I agree with you Loyola that age should not determine who makes the team when the games matter i.e. WCQ and even the Gold Cup. One can point to a 35 year old Radzinski being one of our most effective players (and indeed, his exit due to injury in the Honduras game saw our fortunes turn for the worst). My point however is that we know what the 30+ players can do. As such, we should take advantage of a 2 year lull to try out younger players and give them the opportunity to integrate with the core we can be pretty certain will be in place in 2012 (i.e. the aforementioned DeGuzman, Klukowski, Friend et. al.). If we do not find acceptable younger replacements, then 79 cap Stalteri (whose club career can probably benefit from a break from international duty) - or 40+ cap DeRo - can easily step in with a group they have played with dozens of times. As Bearcat noted, Hart has already started doing this. I am simply advocating a continuation, even if DeRo and Stalteri are currently our best LM and RB respectively.

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Gordon, if you're going to impose an arbitrary cut off age then atleast make an exception for the GK position. The 1979 or earlier exlusions would include; Onstad, Lars, Sutton and Stama. Our two best goalies under the age of 30 are playing for other countries. We would be left with 24 year old Wagenaar, and 21 year old Monsalve and the U20 goalies to call in for our Sr. MNT.

Also, if Lars is going to be our starter in 2012 (and all indications point to that at this time) then he needs to be playing and communicating with his regular backline - whoever they may be.

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quote:Originally posted by jpg75

Gordon, if you're going to impose an arbitrary cut off age then atleast make an exception for the GK position. The 1979 or earlier exlusions would include; Onstad, Lars, Sutton and Stama. Our two best goalies under the age of 30 are playing for other countries. We would be left with 24 year old Wagenaar, and 21 year old Monsalve and the U20 goalies to call in for our Sr. MNT.

Also, if Lars is going to be our starter in 2012 (and all indications point to that at this time) then he needs to be playing and communicating with his regular backline - whoever they may be.

Sadly jpg, Nobody at the CSA listens to me so I am unable to impose anything, arbitrary or otherwise :-). However, yes, I agree we do not have a <30 keeper ready to take over. Not too proficient with this techy stuff, so I will note rather than link that on December 29th at 10:26:15 hrs. I did note an exception for the keeper :-).

Although I am a Hirschfeld fan and prefer him to Onstad/Sutton/Stama always, I am frustrated by his inability to be healthy and/or holding a regular job as a club #1 whenever the games that matter most come around. Truth is, I would not be completely appalled is Hart went with Stillo, Street & Co. from time to time. The difference between Hirschfeld and Onstad this last time around is that the appalling bad goal given up by Hirsch was called back for offside! OK, I indulge in hyperbole, but a real bad goal was called back and I can only think the lack of game play was part of the reason Hirsch flubbed it so badly.

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quote:Originally posted by Gordon

There have been some different posters with different ideas on the cutoff on who should eb called. So to clarify, my view is that there should be no one currently 30 or older called for the next couple of years. I do not support not calling anyone who will be 30 or older at the start of the next qualifying cycle as undoubtedly, guys like Klukowski, DeGuzman and Friend (IMO) will be key performers and will be 30 or so when the next qualifying cycle starts. I agree with you Loyola that age should not determine who makes the team when the games matter i.e. WCQ and even the Gold Cup. One can point to a 35 year old Radzinski being one of our most effective players (and indeed, his exit due to injury in the Honduras game saw our fortunes turn for the worst). My point however is that we know what the 30+ players can do. As such, we should take advantage of a 2 year lull to try out younger players and give them the opportunity to integrate with the core we can be pretty certain will be in place in 2012 (i.e. the aforementioned DeGuzman, Klukowski, Friend et. al.). If we do not find acceptable younger replacements, then 79 cap Stalteri (whose club career can probably benefit from a break from international duty) - or 40+ cap DeRo - can easily step in with a group they have played with dozens of times. As Bearcat noted, Hart has already started doing this. I am simply advocating a continuation, even if DeRo and Stalteri are currently our best LM and RB respectively.

I don't disagree with anything you have said here but I would expand the highlighted point to include U30 mediocre fringe player types as well.

You have debated your points clearly and effectively, Gordon.

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I'm writing this message with great emotion as this will be my last post of 2009 ;)

Gordon, I think we basically saying the same thing. My only concern with what your suggestion is that if you stop calling a player because you think he might be too old (not good enough) in 2012 but you (Hart) turn out ot be wrong, this player might have to adapt to a lot of new teamates and that could be a problem. To illustrate what I'm saying, let's just say that Stalteri is our best RB in 2011-2012 and he hasn't been called for 3 yrs. Now, our backline is compose of Kluka-Edgar-Nana-Stalteri. Those 79 caps from Paul won't mean much and he'll have to learn to play with those new faces at CB. That's why I prefer to keep those older guys around while trying to introduce the younger players and see who can challenge and win a spot. If we play enough friendlies, I think it's possible to work that way.

That being said, I wish you and all the V's an excellent 2010 year!

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quote:Originally posted by loyola

I'm writing this message with great emotion as this will be my last post of 2009 ;)

Gordon, I think we basically saying the same thing. My only concern with what your suggestion is that if you stop calling a player because you think he might be too old (not good enough) in 2012 but you (Hart) turn out ot be wrong, this player might have to adapt to a lot of new teamates and that could be a problem. To illustrate what I'm saying, let's just say that Stalteri is our best RB in 2011-2012 and he hasn't been called for 3 yrs. Now, our backline is compose of Kluka-Edgar-Nana-Stalteri. Those 79 caps from Paul won't mean much and he'll have to learn to play with those new faces at CB. That's why I prefer to keep those older guys around while trying to introduce the younger players and see who can challenge and win a spot. If we play enough friendlies, I think it's possible to work that way.

That being said, I wish you and all the V's an excellent 2010 year!

I think a lot boils down to which players you want to keep around as the transitional veterans, for want of a better term. There are a lot of variables involved in building team chemistry and one of them is how well a veteran player takes to more of a mentorship role. Some guys might accept it but others might announce their retirement from international soccer (at least until such time that we are really close to qualification but we have a sudden injury or suspension crisis and need that vet's services) And as speedmonk posted earlier, playing the maximum number of friendlies would certainly help the situation immensely.

I think (hope?) Hart's on the right track and I'm looking forward to seeing who will be at the Jamaica camp.

Finally, with the year (and decade) now complete, I would like to thank you, loyola, as well as bettermirror, redhat, El Hombre, and gwallace76 for being the mods.

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quote:Originally posted by soka

Looks like Haber was on the list:

"There is one downside to the move for Haber. He was called up for Canada's away friendly against Jamaica at month's end, but almost certainly will miss that training camp and potential senior debut."

http://www.whitecapsfc.com/archive/feature01071001.aspx

Yeah, well their should eb no problem with this as long as the CSA has their ducks in order and have Friendlies scheduled all year long and we should have one that would be in a time that our English club players like Peters, Jackson, Hume and so on are open for call.

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I agree with sentiment that it should be a mix of young and old guys. I think the Gold Cup was a great example. De Jong, Simpson, Jackson, Johnson and Jakovic finally all got consistent playing time and, for the most part, played well. If that's any indication on how the freindlies will be, I am content.

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quote:Originally posted by Macksam

I agree with sentiment that it should be a mix of young and old guys. I think the Gold Cup was a great example. De Jong, Simpson, Jackson, Johnson and Jakovic finally all got consistent playing time and, for the most part, played well. If that's any indication on how the freindlies will be, I am content.

If you are looking for the best available guys, it might be a mix of youth and vets or it might slant toward a few more new faces, who knows. But since we know what some of our vets are capable of, now might be a good time to go with a few more new caps, as Gordon suggested earlier in the thread. I'm pulling for Attakora to make an appearence and a big impression.

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