MM2 Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 TFC -2010 Roster 2010 Roster limits Roster Limits: 20 Senior, 4 Developmental, 2 Academy Domestic players: Unlimited International Players: 19 maximum (8 for all MLS teams, 8 Americans, 3 IS obtained in trades) In-Season Player Movement Arrivals September Nicholas Lindsay (TFC Academy) August Doneil Henry (TFC Academy) July Maicon Santos (Chivas USA) Miguel Angel Ferrer Martinez “Mista” (Deportivo, La Liga) April Maksim Usanov D FA (Russia) Adrian Cann D FA (Esberg FB. Denmark) Raivis Hscanovics D FA (Latvia) Nane Joseph, M MLS Draft #53 Old Dominion signed. Milos Kocic G FA (DC United) Departures [Minutes Played] June Sam Cronin [353] trade to San Jose for Allocation money. May Zachary Herold retired [0] April Jim Brennan retired [90] Senior Roster Domestic 1 Gabe Gala (Canada) 2 Julian De Guzman (Canada) 3 Nana Attakora (Canada) 4 Dwayne De Rosario (Canada) 5 O'Brian White (Jamaica) 6 Adrian Cann (Canada) Senior Roster International 7 Jacob Peterson (USA) 8 Ty Harden (USA) 9 Nick Garcia (USA) 10 Nick LaBrocca (USA) 11 Jon Conway (USA) 12 Chad Barrett (USA) 13 Dan Gargan (USA) 14 Milos Kocic (USA/Serbia) (On loan to SWE{CSL}) 15 Maksim Usanov (Russia) 16 Amadou Sanyang (Gambia) 17 Martin Saric (Argentina/Croatia) 18 Raivis Hscanovics (Latvia) 19 Maicon Santos (Brazil) 20 Mista (Spain) Developmental International 21 Nane Joseph (Cameroon) 22 Stefan Frei (USA/Switzerland) 23 Fuad Ibrahim (USA) 24 Academy Graduates 25 Doneil Henry (Canada) 26 Nicholas Lindsay (Canada) Injury Reserve 1. Emmanuel Gomez (Gambia) Pre-Season Player Movement Arrivals March Dan Gargan D FA signed Martin Saric M FA signed from Slovenia Jon Conway G signed from Chivas USA Nick LaBrocca M (Colorado for Marvell Wynne) 2011 3rd round draft pick from Colorado 2011 3rd round draft pick from Houston for rights to Adrian Serioux 2011 4th round draft pick from NYRB for rights to Carl Robinson February Ty Harden D (Colorado for 3rd round draft pick) January Jacob Peterson M (Colorado Rapids for $$$) Zachary Herold D MLS Draft #24 West Pines United Club/USA U-17 Nane Joseph, M MLS Draft #53 Old Dominion (rights only) Departures [Minutes Played] March Ali Gerba released [534] Brian Edwards released [270] Marvell Wynne traded to Colorado [1890] Carl Robinson released [1757] February Adrian Serioux released [2235] December Amado Guevara signs with Montagua (Honduras)[1999] Pablo Vitti released [1650] Lesly Fellinga released [137] Departures during 2009 season Kevin Harmse [805] Marco Velez [780] Danny Dichio [760] Rohan Ricketts [316] Greg Sutton [135] Johann Smith [47] TFC -End of season Roster 2009 Senior Roster Domestic 1 Jim Brennan (Canada) $185,000.00 $193,250.00 2 Ali Gerba (Canada) $144,996.00 $177,433.50 3 Nana Attakora (Canada) $34,000.00 $34,000.00 4 Dwayne De Rosario (Canada) $370,000.00 $425,750.00 5 Adrian Serioux (Canada) $119,070.00 $131,570.00 6 O'Brian White (Jamaica) $36,000.00 $113,000.00 7 Julian De Guzman (Canada) $909,600.00 $956,350.00 Senior Roster International 8 Sam Cronin (USA) $36,000.00 $84,000.00 9 Nick Garcia (USA) $190,000.00 $198,750.00 10 Marvell Wynne (USA) $57,000.00 $159,500.00 11 Brian Edwards (USA) $39,600.00 $48,350.00 12 Chad Barrett (USA) $195,000.00 $202,500.00 13 Amado Guevara (USA/Honduras) $300,000.00 $323,750.00 14 Lesly Fellinga (Haiti) $36,000.00 $36,000.00 15 Pablo Vitti (Argentina) $288,000.00 $303,000.00 16 Carl Robinson (Wales) $300,000.00 $315,000.00 17 Amadou Sanyang (Gambia) $34,008.00 $40,563.55 18 Emmanuel Gomez (Gambia) $35,700.00 $41,300.00 19 20 Developmental Domestic 21 Gabe Gala (Canada) $20,100.00 $20,100.00 Developmental International 22 Stefan Frei (USA/Switzerland) $65,000.00 $120,000.00 23 Fuad Ibrahim (USA) $75,000.00 $108,000.00 24 2009 Roster Dance: http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18822 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKottonmouthed1555362307 Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Do you know anywhere that has all the Contract details of the players. Like who is even under contract for next season as the Cap will probably come into play. Any sort of details about Vitti and his loan. Plus with the international spots aquired in trades do they expire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MM2 Posted December 8, 2009 Author Share Posted December 8, 2009 quote:Originally posted by TheKottonmouthed Plus with the international spots acquired in trades do they expire? TFC International slots: Traded Jose Cancela to Colorado for IS through 2009 season. Traded Pat Phelan to NE for IS through 2010 season. Traded Allocation slot to Houston for IS through 2010 season. Traded righs to Darren Huckerby to San Jose for IS through 2013 season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAS Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 quote:Originally posted by TheKottonmouthed Do you know anywhere that has all the Contract details of the players. Like who is even under contract for next season as the Cap will probably come into play. Any sort of details about Vitti and his loan. Plus with the international spots aquired in trades do they expire? I'm not sure, but I *think* that we have all the Canadians and young internationals (and probably Robinson) signed for next year. The big contracts that are now expired are with Vitti and Guevara. Vitti's loan is up, and I *think* that his contract with Independiente might be up to, but I'm not sure. Regardless, I'm sure that TFC could have him back - and probably on less money - if we really wanted to. In my opinion, he should only come back if it is for alot less money. Guevara is out of contract. Considering his age, his likely wage expectations, the World Cup, and Preki, he likely won't be back. If he wants to stay in MLS, then TFC can trade his rights for someone/thing, but only if the new CBA (if one is reached) doesn't grant players unrestricted free agency. If both Vitti and Guevara are gone, then TFC has four open spots and ~$600K to work with. A big centre forward to replace Dichio would be on the wish list, as well as atleast one speedy winger than can cross and atleast one solid CB (two if we can get rid of Garcia). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKottonmouthed1555362307 Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 quote:Originally posted by KAS I'm not sure, but I *think* that we have all the Canadians and young internationals (and probably Robinson) signed for next year. The big contracts that are now expired are with Vitti and Guevara. Vitti's loan is up, and I *think* that his contract with Independiente might be up to, but I'm not sure. Regardless, I'm sure that TFC could have him back - and probably on less money - if we really wanted to. In my opinion, he should only come back if it is for alot less money. Guevara is out of contract. Considering his age, his likely wage expectations, the World Cup, and Preki, he likely won't be back. If he wants to stay in MLS, then TFC can trade his rights for someone/thing, but only if the new CBA (if one is reached) doesn't grant players unrestricted free agency. If both Vitti and Guevara are gone, then TFC has four open spots and ~$600K to work with. A big centre forward to replace Dichio would be on the wish list, as well as atleast one speedy winger than can cross and atleast one solid CB (two if we can get rid of Garcia). Definitely agree on basically all points there. I don't expect Vitti or Guevara back if they don't have a contract already. As for the spots open if we go to get a big guy he better be able to move and have some good pace. CB is a spot where I think we could go with adding one or 2 however I think the Gomez and Attakora could develop into some solid CB's. In terms of a winger I would definitely want to see a guy like CMNT's Johnson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Almost certain that Guevara has a contract because unlike Adrian Serioux he wasn't named as a player who needed to have a new deal negotiated when the season ended. Pre-Predrag Radosavljevic there was every expectation he would return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 ...although he has just signed with Motagua in Honduras:- http://preview.tinyurl.com/yder52k While Amado added, "I'm excited, it's what I expected. I come to retire in Motagua, that was my big dream." Maybe there were options involved that were not picked up whether by the club or player? That quote definitely makes it look like it isn't a loan deal but the google translation of this earlier article suggests a loan was what might be arranged:- http://preview.tinyurl.com/ycwyvod Amado is under contract with the league (MLS) for two years.... But amid the topic Toronto, Amado pause again to continue the theme Motagua. "I request to play two tournaments with Motagua, or at least one, the truth is not at the moment, is something we should define the people of the MLS, Toronto and then Motagua. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKottonmouthed1555362307 Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 So Amando the first official casualty of last season. I think it makes most sense to let him go home and for him to go back home; considering the World Cup and nearing the end of his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Wow, TFC are waaaaayyy over the cap, even without Guevara... [b]Name[/b] [b]Cap Value[/b] Jim Brennan $193,250.00 Ali Gerba $177,433.50 Nana Attakora-Gyan $34,000.00 Dwayne De Rosario $425,750.00 Adrian Serioux $131,570.00 O'Brian White $113,000.00 Julian De Guzman $425,750.00 Sam Cronin $84,000.00 Nick Garcia $198,750.00 Marvell Wynne $159,500.00 Brian Edwards $48,350.00 Chad Barrett $202,500.00 Lesly Fellinga $36,000.00 Pablo Vitti $303,000.00 Carl Robinson $315,000.00 Amadou Sanyang $40,563.55 Emmanuel Gomez $41,300.00 ---------- [b]TOTAL[/b] $2,929,716.55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Ben Rycroft has ferreted out the details where Amado Guevara is concerned:- http://www.metronews.ca/vancouver/blog/post/399354 ...I then got an email from another person on the TFC staff stating: "Amado is NOT on loan currently" Followed by another phone call stating that Toronto had not signed any loan agreement with a Honduran club but that his contract was up in December and they had not exercised the option to extend. I don't want to make them seem like they had their pants down on this, as not everyone is always in the loop and news tends to break pretty fast these days, but this story has been out for a couple days now and this is seemingly the first anyone here (club, media, or otherwise) had heard of it. Amado's contract expires at the end of December. Toronto retains his right within MLS. But as the option on his contract was not exercised by the club, he is free to sign anywhere outside of the MLS.... Beyond that I think it's actually the base salary numbers that count towards the salary cap rather than the guaranteed compensation numbers so for example De Rosario counts as 357k rather than 425k and Wynne was only on 57k against the cap rather than 159.5k. I've also never seen a convincing explanation of how allocation money enters into the picture where the numbers quoted on the MLS players union website are concerned (TFC had copious quantities of that at their disposal after the Edu transfer). Pablo Vitti's 288k is no longer a factor so when that additional decrease is combined with the likely cap increase when the CBA gets sorted out this is probably not such a huge issue for TFC at this point especially if Nick Garcia and Carl Robinson are also on options rather than guaranteed deals for next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I've looked for something on the MLS website in the past and couldn't find anything concrete. I have seen the compensation figure used as opposed to the guaranteed amount and the comments by "Fan" in this link back it up: http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/mls-futurewatch-salaries-the-cba-and-tv/6169 "The cap is a privately held number that is what MLS calls a “salary budget” which lays out the maximum amount a team is (supposedly) allowed to spend on salaries. The “player compensation” part is the MINIMUM amount that can be paid out. The key phrase you failed to acknowledge is “no less than.” In other words, the CBA sets the salary floor. The league sets the salary ceiling. So your calculation of what they are spending per player is based upon the minimum, not the maximum..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MM2 Posted December 17, 2009 Author Share Posted December 17, 2009 ^that isn't the way I read it, the minimum amount discussed by "Fan" is not the player amount but the minimum amount the league (or teams)must spend on salaries. The salary cap is not part of the CBA but is set by the league. Of the two salaries quoted for each player the lower amount is the base salary set by the player's contract. The second amount is base salary plus guaranteed bonuses amortized over the life of the contract. So a player with a four year contract at $100,000 per season plus a signing bonus of $100,000 would represent a $125,000.00 salary cap hit per season. This prevents a team from "front-loading" a contract with a high signing bonus. Non-guaranteed bonuses (for wins, championships, games played etc.) are not counted in either of the two amounts above and do not count against the cap. So a player has four incomes, salary + guaranteed bonuses + non-guaranteed bonuses + appearance and other fees. JPG75 - your cap calculation above would be correct (though I'm not sure if Gerba's salary is the actual annual salary or pro-rated for 2009) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 If you are going to claim something is correct, MM2, can you provide a url to back up your assertion? Even allowing for the fact that De Guzman's DP salary was prorated that would mean that at the end of last season TFC were about 700k over the widely quoted 2.3 million figure for the salary cap with Guevara's salary factored in (but Dichio's completely factored out based on the assumption that his contract guarantee date had been renegotiated). Does that not seem a little far fetched to you? Worth noting that Ridge Mahoney of Soccer America wrote the following late last year:- http://www.socceramerica.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=Articles.showArticleHomePage&art_aid=30335 ...Since only base salaries and guaranteed compensation, not salary-cap numbers, are released by the MLS Players' Union, and few details of how much allocation money is allotted by the league and changes hands between teams are publicized, only guesstimates can be made while assembling an 18-man roster that can fit under the cap... Which implies that the MLS Players' Union numbers can't be used to accurately calculate the salary cap hit of a team's senior roster. Meanwhile according to the Desert News in 2007 back when these numbers started to be posted on the Players' Union website:- http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,660217619,00.html ...Salaries are broken into two catagories. The base salary is just that, a base salary that counts toward the salary cap. The second includes all signing and guaranteed bonuses divided over the term of the contract. The second salary does don't include performance bonuses. It's interesting to note that Jason Kreis had a base salary of $160,000 before he retired. That gives RSL a lot of salary cap space to go out and sign a replacement player. Which points to the base salary number being the salary cap hit in the absence of a player's salary being partially offset against the cap by allocation money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,660217619,00.html ...Salaries are broken into two catagories. The base salary is just that, a base salary that counts toward the salary cap. The second includes all signing and guaranteed bonuses divided over the term of the contract. The second salary does don't include performance bonuses. If that's the case then it implies that signing bonuses DO NOT count towards the cap. If that were true i'm sure we'd have a bunch of smart ass GM's who would have (as MM2 mentioned) front loaded all of their player contracts to avoid the cap. eg. I give player X a $500K signing bonus and sign him to a 3 year contract at the min. base salary allowed. His cap number is his base salary, but he's really making approx. $600K over the life of a 3 year deal. That has obviously not been happening. Since MLS GM's are probably as smart as most of us on this board i therefore doubt the base number is the cap number. Now, all we need is someone who has a link to official MLS regulations regarding the cap to set us all straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 TSN now reporting that Fellinga and Vitti have also been let go: [b]Name[/b] [b]Cap Value[/b] Jim Brennan $193,250.00 Ali Gerba $177,433.50 Nana Attakora-Gyan $34,000.00 Dwayne De Rosario $425,750.00 Adrian Serioux $131,570.00 O'Brian White $113,000.00 Julian De Guzman $425,750.00 Sam Cronin $84,000.00 Nick Garcia $198,750.00 Marvell Wynne $159,500.00 Brian Edwards $48,350.00 Chad Barrett $202,500.00 Carl Robinson $315,000.00 Amadou Sanyang $40,563.55 Emmanuel Gomez $41,300.00 ---------- [b]TOTAL[/b] $2,590,716.55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MM2 Posted December 17, 2009 Author Share Posted December 17, 2009 I don't think anyone really knows the MLS Cap rules, there are so many unknowns for anyone to get a completely clear picture. I have come to my conclusions from following MLS since it's inception in 1996, reading the collective agreement several times and and using that to reach what I consider to be logical conclusions, others may chose to differ. TFC did have a large amount of allocation money that could have been used to supplement the cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 quote:Originally posted by jpg75 If that's the case then it implies that signing bonuses DO NOT count towards the cap. If that were true i'm sure we'd have a bunch of smart ass GM's who would have (as MM2 mentioned) front loaded all of their player contracts to avoid the cap. I think the flaw in that line of reasoning, which would be a reasonable one in the context of other leagues like the CFL or NHL, is that non-DP player contracts are held by the league as a single entity rather than by the individual franchises so the league office can police that very effectively, since they are the ones handling the paycheques and the player contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKottonmouthed1555362307 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 By the way, didn't Nana legally change his name dropping the gyan part. I believe he is just Nana Attakora now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard I think the flaw in that line of reasoning, which would be a reasonable one in the context of other leagues like the CFL or NHL, is that non-DP player contracts are held by the league as a single entity rather than by the individual franchises so the league office can police that very effectively, since they are the ones handling the paycheques and the player contracts. And they would reject those contracts based on what legality? That they outsmarted MLS HQ's? Makes no sense. Here's a link to a Red Bulls supporters post who believes the correct cap figure is the guaranteed comp. (he has transposed the 2 numbers however) http://www.soccerpubs.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=31453&mode=threaded His figures came from here: http://www.soccerpubs.com/boards/lofiversion/index.php?t30722.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Under single entity the non-DP player contracts are held by MLS and not TFC so I'm not sure where you see a legal problem entering into the picture. Beyond that I'm not interested in getting into a testosterone fueled tit-for-tat posting frenzy with you on this so here's my guess of what the current situation is like and that will probably be the end of my participation on this topic for now:- [b]Name[/b] [b]Base Salary[/b] de Guzman 425,000 DeRosario 357,000 Robinson 300,000 Barrett 195,000 Garcia 190,000 Brennan 185,000 Gerba 144,996 Serioux 119,070 Wynne 57,000 Edwards 39,600 Cronin 36,000 White 36,000 Gomez 35,700 Sayang 34,008 Attakora 34,000 ---------- [b]Total[/b] 2,188,374 My guess and this is pure speculation on my part would be that the base salary numbers of Robinson, Gerba, DeRosario and Barrett are partially offset against the cap with allocation money and when a 100k salary cap increase is factored in as well there is probably at least 400k available under the cap at the moment. Things would be a lot healthier if Garcia and to a lesser extent Robinson and Barrett were not around, however, and a potential fly in the ointment is that the Gerba number may be a prorated one in a 2008 context so he may be on closer to 300k in 2009, which would be way too high without a major improvement in his performances. No time to double check but I think Brennan and Serioux's contracts are up for renegotiation (may mean a significant decrease for the former) so those numbers might change as well. Eventually Marvel Wynne's Generation Adidas related base salary number will probably change to something more realistic for a regular starter and occasional USMNT player so that is an added area of uncertainty as are the terms of the pre-Superdraft deals with the league negotiated by Cronin and White. If Garcia, Robinson, Barrett and Gerba are on guaranteed deals for 2010 Radosavljevic will need two seasons minimum to build a team with his personal stamp on it and Mo Johnston will/should be the fall guy if anything untoward happens in the upcoming season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard Beyond that I'm not interested in getting into a testosterone fueled tit-for-tat posting frenzy with you on this I love that even when someone disagrees with you in a respectful, well thought-out manner - and includes links and facts to back up his argument - you somehow still feel the need to belittle his posts as "testosterone fueled". Did he call you names? Did he insult you? No, all he did was engage your claims. Imagine that. (I do not require a response from you. Your posts are just so maddeningly pompous at times. I realize that I tend to get mixed up in stupidity on here from time to time, but unlike you I do not actively instigate with people who are merely looking at things from a different angle from myself.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 As stated on another recent thread if people don't like my posts they are just going to have to learn to deal with them. Over and out unless somebody has something new and intelligent to add related to the actual subject matter of the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvroArrow Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Is a thread ever really complete without BBTB engaging in some kind of argument, deride people who disagree with him, and then saying he's done with the thread once things seem to be turning against him? But there I go again, getting all doped up on the testosterone.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soju Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Adrian Serioux $131,570.00 Nick Garcia $198,750.00 keeping Nick? [] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 ^ I think most people would agree that Preki isn't done yet, not by a long shot. Contract terms may tie his hands somewhat in some instances. And I'd suspect, given his experience, who gets released or moved has as much to do with who he's got lined up off-camera as it does with any other factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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