Argos still want into BMO Field?

[Gian-Luca]

Another member of the mainstream media condemns the Argo's intentions:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/baseball/alomar-merits-call-from-hall/article1382054/

[john tv]

yap the aliens have taken over.Hey loud mouth any cartoon to support this.I have been around the Argo principals and it always seems to be a messy thing this involvement with the building of a stadium and the co existance. There is simply no way that soccer and football can be played on the same field.They will ruin it and than these crazy lines. Makes me sick and in fact it is only for a split second that I will watch and than notice these lines. Goodbye game.

This thing has to be stopped and hey if we really want to be different,change that Rogers place into a full fledged soccer field. The right size and bring the stands closer to the field if possible.That will show how the aliens are taking over.

Ok I realize this is impossible but fun to contemplate.

I really think we should write all these politicians a note explainiong how dangerous that football is,the medical cost associated with it and the long term damage that sport will have inflicted on all those that played and even in the school years it must do some irreparable damage. Somebody will come up with the stats some day. Football has to be banned for the sake of the very many young football players accross North America. It is not an Olympic sport and will never qualify.The aliens will not allow this to happen.

[bettermirror]

A little over the top John, but the basic premise can't be argued.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Latest from the Toronto Star:-

http://www.thestar.com/sports/football/cfl/argos/article/733852--argonauts-face-boatful-of-issues

Sources say Argo owners David Cynamon and Howard Sokolowski will keep the team if a deal can be struck to move games to the city-owned stadium, even if it isn't until 2011.

``Their original goal when they bought the team was to move to a more intimate stadium," one source said. ``If they can do it at BMO, they'll stay."

But sources also say that Cynamon is more committed to keep the Argos than is Sokolowski.

If that's true, it could open the door for B.C. Lions owner David Braley to either lend the Argos more money or replace Sokolowski as a partner. Braley, who lent the owners $1 million when they bought the team out of bankruptcy in 2003, is keenly interested in keeping the Argos afloat for the sake of the CFL's stability.

Which begs the question of why they gave up on the York University stadium deal with the CSA if a smaller stadium was so important to them?

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

Latest from the Toronto Star:-

http://www.thestar.com/sports/football/cfl/argos/article/733852--argonauts-face-boatful-of-issues

Sources say Argo owners David Cynamon and Howard Sokolowski will keep the team if a deal can be struck to move games to the city-owned stadium, even if it isn't until 2011.

``Their original goal when they bought the team was to move to a more intimate stadium," one source said. ``If they can do it at BMO, they'll stay."

But sources also say that Cynamon is more committed to keep the Argos than is Sokolowski.

If that's true, it could open the door for B.C. Lions owner David Braley to either lend the Argos more money or replace Sokolowski as a partner. Braley, who lent the owners $1 million when they bought the team out of bankruptcy in 2003, is keenly interested in keeping the Argos afloat for the sake of the CFL's stability.

Which begs the question of why they gave up on the York University stadium deal with the CSA if a smaller stadium was so important to them?

Yes, more revisionist history. As you say, if they'd wanted to have a smaller stadium, it was there and waiting for them. They had the event with Pinball and Lorna Marsden and then they pulled the rug out from everybody else and went back to play in Ted's sand box with a roof.

Short term gain but long term pain.

The phuqed up and now they're living with the repercussions of their error.

I love CFL football and the Argos are my CFL team but they have to figure a way out of their problems without destroying the integrity of a fine sport and without ruining other people's sports experiences.

More credit to Braley for putting his money where his mouth is (or isn't as he keeps his mouth shut). Too bad Cynamon and Sokoloski don't seem to be willing to do the same thing.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by dbailey62

Yes, more revisionist history. As you say, if they'd wanted to have a smaller stadium, it was there and waiting for them. They had the event with Pinball and Lorna Marsden and then they pulled the rug out from everybody else and went back to play in Ted's sand box with a roof.

Short term gain but long term pain.

The phuqed up and now they're living with the repercussions of their error.

I love CFL football and the Argos are my CFL team but they have to figure a way out of their problems without destroying the integrity of a fine sport and without ruining other people's sports experiences.

More credit to Braley for putting his money where his mouth is (or isn't as he keeps his mouth shut). Too bad Cynamon and Sokoloski don't seem to be willing to do the same thing.

It would seem very likely to me that if they needed a loan from Braley in order to acquire the Argos, they almost certainly didn't have the money to participate in a new stadium even if cost shared. Which is why they probably bolted back to Rogers when the opportunity arose. I agree that BMO should not be part of that equation now.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

It would seem very likely to me that if they needed a loan from Braley in order to acquire the Argos, they almost certainly didn't have the money to participate in a new stadium even if cost shared. Which is why they probably bolted back to Rogers when the opportunity arose. I agree that BMO should not be part of that equation now.

Yes, you're probably right in that regard although both are relatively succesfull in their own right but that doesn't automatically make you a multi-millionair with money to burn either.

[Chaos]

quote:Originally posted by dbailey62Yes, more revisionist history. As you say, if they'd wanted to have a smaller stadium, it was there and waiting for them. They had the event with Pinball and Lorna Marsden and then they pulled the rug out from everybody else and went back to play in Ted's sand box with a roof.

Short term gain but long term pain.

http://www.yorku.ca/alumni/alumnimatters/oct-04/newstadium.html

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

It would seem very likely to me that if they needed a loan from Braley in order to acquire the Argos, they almost certainly didn't have the money to participate in a new stadium even if cost shared.

...or their interest in the stadium deal related to associated real estate development and soured when that side of things was not as lucrative as they had anticipated. I think there was some kind of property deal between York U and at least one of the Argos owners, which collapsed not long before they backed out on the stadium deal but don't have time to hunt the details down at the moment.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Chaos

http://www.yorku.ca/alumni/alumnimatters/oct-04/newstadium.html

Thanks again Chaos. It shows once again the C and S can talk up a good show but when it's time to pull out the wallet, they disappear.

[Massive Attack]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

...or their interest in the stadium deal related to associated real estate development and soured when that side of things was not as lucrative as they had anticipated. I think there was some kind of property deal between York U and at least one of the Argos owners, which collapsed not long before they backed out on the stadium deal but don't have time to hunt the details down at the moment.

This is an interesting theory, yet very doubtful.

What did happen is that there was some controversy over land York U. sold to Tribute Homes (a company owned by Howard Sokolowski) without tendering any bids. The school claimed it got full value for the sale of land, but critics disagreed. Of course, this didn't lead to anything meaningful after a classic whitewash investigation cleared the school and Sokolowski.

Not at any time during the stadium at York U. was their any mention of a side deals for land development.

[Cyrus]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

What is frustrating about all this is that the club with a following is having to capitulate to the the club that has no following. The argos are trying to have us believe that their average attendance is around 26K. But check out the article below from the Regina Leader Post. I think that those numbers are actually credible base personal observations. If it came down to actual numbers and market presence, it would be no contest as to who should call the shots and rule the roost

If 26 K average attendance was a realistic representation of actual ticket sales and revenues (ie.: not give aways) why would they be contemplating selling the team? And why would they be going hat in hand to league to have teams the like the Riders share their revenues? bottom line:

- Unlike the NFL, you seldom see Argos games shown in bars and people actually following.

- Unlike TFC, I never see Argos merchandise around town.

The only thing that the Argos have on TFC is the strong support from the media.

____________

"Cynamon and Sokolowski bought the Argos after the team had fallen into bankruptcy, in 2003. It is believed the season ticket base had fallen to as low as 2,000, with the team drawing an average paid attendance of only about 10,000 a game."

http://www.leaderpost.com/sports/Argos+owners+have+enough/2100587/story.html?id=2100587

________________

Agreed on the weak Argos fanbase. I have had the good fortune to move around this country for work every couple of years for quite a while. I am a VERY occasional Aloutettes fan, which is more a side-effect of Montreal rather than an actual choice. I have, across the country and world, met, and shared beers with, fans of Saskatchewan, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, BC. Hell, I even met a Hamilton Tiger-Cats fan who was driving cab in Bermuda and wanted to talk CFL. But I have never met a casual Argos fan. Anywhere. Ever.

But not a CFL thread. Have to get back on topics relating to soccer. Sharing gridiron and roundball is an unproven theory at best. Honestly, I was physically angry seeing that the Grey Cup last week couldn't cough up the money or the effort to remove soccer markings from the field in Regina. Extremely few soccer markings. For the god damned Grey Cup. How do you think it will work in reverse?

[Cyrus]

Yes, after reading my posting, I realize that the field was actually in Calgary. But my point stands. If you can't clean soccer markings off a CFl field, how can you do it in reverse, every week?

[ray]

It is far from certain that moving to BMO would greatly change the Argos' attendance. To do that, they need to put a winner on the field.

I assume TFC pay the city to use BMO.

My question is: are the Argos looking for a sweetheart deal (like low rent) from the city in addition to being allowed to use BMO? If so, TFC should legitimately ask for similar treatment.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Cyrus

Yes, after reading my posting, I realize that the field was actually in Calgary. But my point stands. If you can't clean soccer markings off a CFl field, how can you do it in reverse, every week?

Those soccer lines are permanently sewn into the pitch just as the soccer lines at BMO were permanent. All you can do is paint over them.

The lacrosse lines were temporary and as we could all see, they could be sort of cleaned off but it is tought to make it look perfect although they do a pretty good job removing the football lines off the FieldTurf at Qwest Field in Seattle.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

What is frustrating about all this is that the club with a following is having to capitulate to the the club that has no following. The argos are trying to have us believe that their average attendance is around 26K. But check out the article below from the Regina Leader Post. I think that those numbers are actually credible base personal observations. If it came down to actual numbers and market presence, it would be no contest as to who should call the shots and rule the roost

If 26 K average attendance was a realistic representation of actual ticket sales and revenues (ie.: not give aways) why would they be contemplating selling the team? And why would they be going hat in hand to league to have teams the like the Riders share their revenues? bottom line:

- Unlike the NFL, you seldom see Argos games shown in bars and people actually following.

- Unlike TFC, I never see Argos merchandise around town.

The only thing that the Argos have on TFC is the strong support from the media.

____________

"Cynamon and Sokolowski bought the Argos after the team had fallen into bankruptcy, in 2003. It is believed the season ticket base had fallen to as low as 2,000, with the team drawing an average paid attendance of only about 10,000 a game."

http://www.leaderpost.com/sports/Argos+owners+have+enough/2100587/story.html?id=2100587

________________

Tony, this is a very late reply but it's important to note that the figure of 2k STH and 10k per game was for 2003 prior to C & S picking up the team. The key part of that quote is the word "had".

I did go to games at that time and those numbers seem very, very plausible to me. It was a morgue in there.

Contrasting that, in subsequent years, it was obvious that attendance had very much improved. While that doesn't discount the inevitable papering of the house, it has to be accepted that things did improve greatly after their ownership took charge.

That said, obviously all is not well in the Argonauts kingdom. I hope they work their way through this but do it on their own without our help.

[Med_Hat_FC]

Didn't they just build a new football (Canadian edition) stadium at the U of T. Why doesn't the Argos invest in that? They could have a similar agreement as the Alouettes do, where they play the summer games at the Varsity stadium and the fall/playoff games at the Skydome.

[SthMelbRed]

^the key word in your question is 'invest'. It appears that the current owners of the Argos are a couple of parasites who want to gain advantage without actually putting up any capital themselves. If they intended to invest in the future of their team, they'd have put up money on one of the many occasions in the past when stadium proposals were put forward prior to the eventual construction of BMO.

[Loud Mouth Soup]

quote:Originally posted by Med_Hat_FC

Didn't they just build a new football (Canadian edition) stadium at the U of T. Why doesn't the Argos invest in that? They could have a similar agreement as the Alouettes do, where they play the summer games at the Varsity stadium and the fall/playoff games at the Skydome.

Sounds funny to say it, but it's not big enough.

[Loud Mouth Soup]

Here it is. Sorry about the stretchy goodness.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by ray

I assume TFC pay the city to use BMO.

My question is: are the Argos looking for a sweetheart deal (like low rent) from the city in addition to being allowed to use BMO? If so, TFC should legitimately ask for similar treatment.

MLSE obtained a 20 year management deal with the City of Toronto when the agreement was reached with the provincial and federal governments to build the stadium for the 2007 U-20 World Cup. The key terms of a possible future rental deal with the Argos were outlined as part of that.

quote:Originally posted by Med_Hat_FC

Didn't they just build a new football (Canadian edition) stadium at the U of T. Why doesn't the Argos invest in that? They could have a similar agreement as the Alouettes do, where they play the summer games at the Varsity stadium and the fall/playoff games at the Skydome.

During the U-20 World Cup stadium saga the location was actually going to be at Varsity Stadium at one point with MLSE rather than the Argos owners as the key pro sports investor but internal opposition at UofT to a partnership with pro sports helped to kill that off. I think MLSE also eventually decided that the numbers didn't work. Can't be bothered googling but all the gory details on that are easy enough to find.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Loud Mouth Soup

Here it is. Sorry about the stretchy goodness.

Thanks for posting that very good photograph.

That stand only holds 5k. There is no room on the west side for an additional stand the space of the old main stand now being taken up by the 400 metre track.

There is virtually no room behind the east due to the newly enlarged Royal Conservatory of Music.

U of T rejected the plan to build a 25k football / soccer stadium years ago.

Varsity will never happen.

It really cannot be compared to Molson Stadium at McGill.

Old Varsity .... maybe. New Varsity, forget about it.

[dbailey62]

BTW, a new building has been constructed at the south end of Varsity since that photograph was taken ruling the south end out as an expansion possibility.

[VPjr]

Update on Argos to BMO

I understand that the CSA met with Toronto City Hall officials today.

The Argos no longer have a lease at Rogers and there are elements at city hall pushing very hard to get the Argos into BMO for 2011. One a scale of 1-10 (1 being no chance of Argos at BMO, 10 being that they are coming), the risk of Argos at BMO by 2011 sits solidly at a 6.

I get the sense, from reading some TFC supporters sites, that there is a "crying wolf" sentiment running through alot of the comments that are being posted, likely because for rational people, the Argos at BMO makes no sese. The CSA is definitely concerned and TFC/MLSE must be as well, even though they are obligated to sort of stay out of it.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

Update on Argos to BMO

I understand that the CSA met with Toronto City Hall officials today.

The Argos no longer have a lease at Rogers and there are elements at city hall pushing very hard to get the Argos into BMO for 2011. One a scale of 1-10 (1 being no chance of Argos at BMO, 10 being that they are coming), the risk of Argos at BMO by 2011 sits solidly at a 6.

I get the sense, from reading some TFC supporters sites, that there is a "crying wolf" sentiment running through alot of the comments that are being posted, likely because for rational people, the Argos at BMO makes no sese. The CSA is definitely concerned and TFC/MLSE must be as well, even though they are obligated to sort of stay out of it.

Thanks for posting this update.

I still find it difficult to believe that the CFL would bend its rules in such a major way but obviously we cannot take anything for granted.

Have you posted this at the other sites yet?