Argos still want into BMO Field?

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Nope. The stadium and the entire surroundings of the stadium are on city land that is used for various fairs, festivals such as carribana, trade shows and exhibitions such as the CNE. Its brings in revenues for the city and holds some cultural significance.

I cant imaging the financial dire straits that the city would have to be in that would cause them to look at selling the ex or part of it to private interest.

How would selling or leasing the small portion of land the stadium is built on that the city can not use for anything else precisely because it has a stadium on it effect in any way the city's ability to use the rest of the Exhibition ground that it does use?

[red card]

quote:The only thing that the Argos have on TFC is the strong support from the media.

The Argos are also the oldest pro sports franchise in North America (only in Toronto is this not cherished), play the 2nd favourite sport in Canada, have about 2-3x higher TV ratings in Toronto vs TFC, and play in a league with at least 6x higher tv ratings nationally for regular season games.

TFC supporter base is much more passionate and is trending up but the Argos have a wider casual base. And the CFL easily trumps MLS, which has minimal traction beyond TFC, Whitecaps & Impact supporters.

[piltdownman]

^Does the Dodgers not count as they moved? They were founded in the mid-1850s. Also the Boston Red Stockings (Now Atlanta Braves, 1871), Chicago White Stockings (Now the Cubs Oddly, 1870) are older than the Argos (1873).

Point taken though, the team is old.

[Gordon]

Its actually the oldest professional football team and not the oldest professional sports franchise. Those numbers from the Leader Post article relate to the situation in 2003 when the argo went into bankruptcy and not the current situation. It is a mugs game to determine what is real and what is false when it comes to reported attendance. MLS is routinely accused of padding attendance figures and of course, there is the notorious "oh no you didn't" argument everytime a soccer game is played anywhere in Canada. What is clear is this. CFL games at BMO would not be good for TFC or the Stadium. It is also my beleif that it would not be good for the CFL and the Argos and so I hope that it does not happen. I also still believe that it is a leverage move for negotiations at Skydome.

[VPjr]

For those of you who do live in Toronto, here is an example of the type of message that needs to be emailed to Mayor Miller, Deputy Mayor Pantalone and the local councillor:

Dear Mr/Mrs/Ms XXXXXX,

It has been widely reported that the Toronto Argonauts Football Club has approached the City of Toronto and the Exhibition Place Board of Governors in regards to their desire to relocate their team from Rogers Centre to BMO Field.

As a taxpayer in the City of Toronto and an ardent soccer supporter, I find this news distressing. BMO Field was originally conceived as a Soccer Specific Stadium and is commonly referred to as Canada's National Soccer Stadium. It should remain as such.

Soccer is Canada's, Ontario's and Toronto's largest participation sport by a wide margin and yet it is highly underserviced by the City of Toronto. There are not nearly enough soccer facilities as it is to support the enormous demand to play the sport. To take away more dates from the large and growing Toronto soccer community by allowing the Argonauts to play home games at BMO Field would be a poor decision and would be perceived by soccer lovers as a slap in the face.

Considering that Municipal Elections will take place next fall, it would be a very unwise decision to permit the Argonauts to relocate to BMO Field. Such a decision would be a very short sighted move by the City of Toronto. The potential backlash from soccer supporters would be overwhelming. Is it all really worth it? Furthermore, allowing the Argos to fill dates at our National Soccer Stadium would effectively tie the hands of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment and the Canadian Soccer Association from hosting additional soccer related events (in addition to Toronto FC home matches), so the net benefit to the City of Toronto would be negligible.

I urge you to make the right decision. Say NO to the Argonauts at BMO Field. They have a wonderful home at the Rogers Centre and they should stay their and allow the BMO Field (with its $3 million natural grass surface) to remain a Soccer Specific Stadium in perpetuity. If the Argonauts do move into BMO Field, I personally will hold you responsible and you can be sure that I will vote against you in the next round of municipal elections.

Best Regards

XXXXXXX

This is just a suggestion. Go ahead and write whatever you wish. However, please be sure to write something if you are a city of Toronto resident.

Be sure to send the email to your councillor, copying the Mayor and Deputy Mayor and all the other councillors. Feel free to copy all the people from the Argos as well whose emails are noted in a previous post.

Toronto residents...don't sit on the fence. Send it right away.

here are the email addresses so you don't have to look for it:

David Miller - mayor_miller@toronto.ca

Ward 1 (Etobicoke North) Suzan Hall - councillor_hall@toronto.ca

Ward 2 (Etobicoke North) Rob Ford - councillor_ford@toronto.ca

Ward 3 (Etobicoke Centre) Doug Holyday councillor_holyday@toronto.ca

Ward 4 (Etobicok Centre) Gloria Lindsay Luby - councillor_lindsay_luby@toronto.ca

Ward 5 (Etobicoke-Lakeshore) Peter Milczyn - councillor_milczyn@toronto.ca

Ward 6 (Etobicoke-Lakeshore) Mark Grimes - councillor_grimes@toronto.ca

Ward 7 (York West) Giorgio Mammoliti - councillor_mammoliti@toronto.ca

Ward 8 (York West) Anthony Perruzza - councillor_perruzza@toronto.ca

Ward 9 (York Centre) Maria Augimeri - councillor_augimeri@toronto.ca

Ward 10 (York Centre) Mike Feldman - councillor_feldman@toronto.ca

Ward 11 (York South-Weston) Frances Nunziata - councillor_nunziata@toronto.ca

Ward 12 (York South-Weston) Frank Di Giorgio - councillor_digiorgio@toronto.ca

Ward 13 (Parkdale - High Park) - Bill Saundercook - councillor_saundercook@toronto.ca

Ward 14 (Parkdale - High Park) Gord Perks - councillor_perks@toronto.ca

Ward 15 (Eglinton-Lawrence) Howard Moscoe - councillor_moscoe@toronto.ca

Ward 16 (Eglinton-Lawrence) Karen Stintz - councillor_stintz@toronto.ca

Ward 17 (Davenport) Cesar Palacio - councillor_palacio@toronto.ca

Ward 18 (Davenport) Adam Giambrone - councillor_giambrone@toronto.ca

Ward 19 (Trinity Spadina) Joe Pantalone - councillor_pantalone@toronto.ca (DEPUTY MAYOR)

Ward 20 (Trinity Spadina) Adam Vaughn - councillor_vaughan@toronto.ca

Ward 21 (St. Paul's) Joe Mihevc - councillor_mivehc@toronto.ca

Ward 22 (St. Paul's) Michael Walker - councillor_walker@toronto.ca

Ward 23 (Willowdale) John Filion - councillor_filion@toronto.ca

Ward 24 (Willowdale) - David Shiner - councillor_shiner@toronto.ca

Ward 25 (Don Valley West) Cliff Jenkins - councillor_jenkins@toronto.ca

Ward 26 (Don Valley West) John Parker - councillor_parker@toronto.ca

Ward 27 (Toronto Centre Rosedale) Kyle Rae - councillor_rae@toronto.ca

Ward 28 (Toronto Centre Rosedale) Pam McConnell - councillor_mcconnell@toronto.ca

Ward 29 (Toronto-Danforth) Case Ootes - councillor_ootes@toronto.ca

Ward 30 (Toronto Danforth) Paula Fletcher - councillor_fletcher@toronto.ca

Ward 31 (Beaches - East York) Janet Davis - councillor_davis@toronto.ca

Ward 32 (Beaches - East York) Sandra Bussin - councillor_bussin@toronto.ca

Ward 33 (Don Valley East) Shelley Carroll - councillor_carroll@toronto.ca

Ward 34 (Don Valley East) Denzil Minnan-Wong - councillor_minnan-wong@toronto.ca

Ward 35 (Scarborough Southwest) Adrian Heaps - councillor_heaps@toronto.ca

Ward 36 (Scarborough Southwest) Brian Ashton - councillor_ashton@toronto.ca

Ward 37 (Scarborough Centre) Michael Thompson - councillor_thompson@toronto.ca

Ward 38 (Scarborough Centre) Glenn De Baeremaeker - councillor_debaeremaeker@toronto.ca

Ward 39 (Scarborough Agincourt) Mike Del Grande - councillor_delgrande@toronto.ca

Ward 40 (Scarborough Agincourt) Norm Kelly - councillor_kelly@toronto.ca

Ward 41 (Scarborough Rouge River) Chin Lee - councillor_lee@toronto.ca

Ward 42 (Scarborough - Rouge River) Raymond Cho - councillor_cho@toronto.ca

Ward 43 (Scarborough East) Paul Ainslie - councillor_ainslie@toronto.ca

Ward 44 (Scarborough East) Ron Moeser - councillor_moeser@toronto.ca

If you don't know what ward you are in, use this link to figure it out:

http://app.toronto.ca/wards/jsp/wards.jsp

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

That's not possible. The stadium is on the Exhibition grounds whoch is owned by the city. If it were built anywhere else, I am sure that would be the first option.

I wonder if it might not be possible to lease the stadium from the city of Toronto for a certain given number of years. Guarantee the city either a percentage of profits or a flat rate of return (or whichever is higher on any given year) in exchange for the de facto ownership of the stadium without actually owning the stadium.

For example, I think it would be safe to assume that "Liberty Grand" has some sort of long term lease on the "Ontario Government Building" at the west end of the grounds. They spent millions on turning it from a barren shell of a structure into multiple very nice event spaces.

Oh ya, interestingly, David Cynamon is part owner of "Liberty Grand".

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

How would selling or leasing the small portion of land the stadium is built on that the city can not use for anything else precisely because it has a stadium on it effect in any way the city's ability to use the rest of the Exhibition ground that it does use?

I believe that the Exhibition Grounds were donated from the Federal Government to the City of Toronto with the caveat that none of the grounds or any building on it could ever be sold to private interest.

There is some by-law which governs this. I'm not sure what the penalty is, but it's enough to have kept the city from turning the Ex into a wall of condos (which they would have done a long time ago if left to their own devices).

MLSE could not own BMO Field if it wanted to.

[jimmynow]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

The Rogers Center situation doesn't bear much relation to that of BMO other than that public funds were used. It was not built for Rogers who didn't even own the Jays at that time. It was built as a joint private/public bid project whose costs through bad planning and corruption ballooned to an extent not anticipated and put the stadium into massive debt before it even opened. These debts in construction and then later in running the stadium led to the government having to sell the stadium at a fraction of its cost and also to several subsequent sales of it by companies who also couldn't make a profit on it before Rogers bought it for a song. It also contributed to the defeat of the Liberal party. Regardless the fact of the matter is the government lost control of the project through their own ineptitude and have little say on how the stadium is used or who plays there. That is not the case with BMO, the government owns it so they have the right to determine who plays there and how it is used. If TFC and its fans don't like this they should buy the stadium.

my comment only relates to the argument, made by Argo fans, that BMO is taxpayer funded and thus they should be allowed in.

I counter with the argument that they already play in a taxpayer funded stadium. It's not as if they didn't already reap the rewards of taxpayer funding for a stadium like TFC did. But in media reports, they are portrayed as somehow this forgotten child that didn't get what the new child (TFC) got. get it?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Today's mainstream media stories on the Argos attempted stadium hijack:-

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/football/2009/11/29/11968131-sun.html

"At its meeting earlier today, the Canadian Football League Board of Governors instructed the league office to work with the Toronto Argonauts to provide a detailed report on the feasibility of the City of Toronto's BMO Field for CFL football," league commissioner Mark Cohon said in a statement. "The Board was assured this work will be undertaken as quickly as possible."

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/columnists/steve_simmons/2009/11/29/11968146-sun.html

Here's what makes no sense to me about the Argos potential move outdoors to BMO Field. One, the stadium seats only 20,000 people. Two, it's more expensive to rent than the Rogers Centre. Three, the Argos, if they aren't lying, already sell more than 20,000 tickets a game and are losing money. And never mind the fact that the field doesn't fit (although I'd welcome the smaller end zones). The Argos would have to raise ticket prices significantly to make this work and how do you that with the garbage they've been peddling lately as football entertainment? ...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/cfl-to-examine-suitability-of-bmo-field/article1381562/

...In addition, while BMO Field is owned by the city of Toronto, there is expected to be considerable opposition to the move from both Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment (owners of Toronto FC) and the Canadian Soccer Association.

Argos co-owners Howard Sokolowski and David Cynamon have not given the league a final decision on whether they will continue as owners next season or sell to B.C. Lions owner David Braley.

[Teach]

The ARGOS are NEVER going to move into BMO. I have this info from a source at the top.

The ARGOS can't sell the team even though they are willing to get virtually nothing in return. They are loosing big dollars and certainly won't be able to pay the necessary monies to convert the field and repair the grass.

[Chaos]

Selfishly speaking, I hope the Argos stay put.

[Stephen LaRose]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

What is frustrating about all this is that the club with a following is having to capitulate to the the club that has no following. The argos are trying to have us believe that their average attendance is around 26K. But check out the article below from the Regina Leader Post. I think that those numbers are actually credible base personal observations. If it came down to actual numbers and market presence, it would be no contest as to who should call the shots and rule the roost

If 26 K average attendance was a realistic representation of actual ticket sales and revenues (ie.: not give aways) why would they be contemplating selling the team? And why would they be going hat in hand to league to have teams the like the Riders share their revenues? bottom line:

- Unlike the NFL, you seldom see Argos games shown in bars and people actually following.

- Unlike TFC, I never see Argos merchandise around town.

The only thing that the Argos have on TFC is the strong support from the media.

____________

"Cynamon and Sokolowski bought the Argos after the team had fallen into bankruptcy, in 2003. It is believed the season ticket base had fallen to as low as 2,000, with the team drawing an average paid attendance of only about 10,000 a game."

http://www.leaderpost.com/sports/Argos+owners+have+enough/2100587/story.html?id=2100587

________________

Those ticket sales and season ticket figures come from 2003, when C&S bought the team.

And as a CFL and Saskatchewan Roughriders fan this is a dumb idea. C&S are demanding that the league rewrite its rules in order to make them happy, yet those two clowns have the attention span of a ADHD kid after six bowls of Captain Crunch.

[gkhs]

I posted long-windedly about this, so I won't post my response here. FWIW, my perspective/take on it does seem a little different than most.

http://socceruntothedogs.blogspot.com/2009/11/argos-to-bmo-field-editorial-response.html

As others have said, I can't see it happening in the laughable way that has been described. But I could see this as the first step in a protracted effort to wedge their way into BMO, and extort some government cheese.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Stephen LaRose

Those ticket sales and season ticket figures come from 2003, when C&S bought the team.

And as a CFL and Saskatchewan Roughriders fan this is a dumb idea. C&S are demanding that the league rewrite its rules in order to make them happy, yet those two clowns have the attention span of a ADHD kid after six bowls of Captain Crunch.

Mmmmmmmm. Captain Crunch. Oh to be 10 again!

[piltdownman]

I loved that stuff. I never got to eat it except when I stayed at my grandmothers. I do remember how it left your mouth feeling raw though.

[brettinhalifax]

Interesting stuff in this article

http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/story.html?id=2281193

quote:Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment owns Toronto FC and manages BMO Field, but all negotiations with the Argos would be handled by the city.

quote:"I've heard things like they're talking about playing on a 100-yard field with 15-yard end zones," MLSE chief operating officer Tom Anselmi said. "I've heard they're talking 110 yards, with 10-yard end zones. That is for them, for the CFL to decide if it is prepared to make that compromise. Or else, you've got to look at re-configuring the building, and that will take some time and some money."

quote:"I don't know if we have any chance [of stopping a relocation]," Montopoli said.

[brettinhalifax]

And +1 on Cap'n Crunch.

I get shakey just thinking about it. I bought a box last year and hid it from the kids.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Great headline in the Toronto Sun today:-

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/football/2009/11/30/11975701-sun.html

Argos move to BMO just plain smells

It's time to drop the gloves.

The Argonauts can't make money playing at the Rogers Centre and think they can find greener pastures at BMO Field.

But they will not be walking their way into the charming, smaller, and more intimate locale without a fight.

"We have serious concerns with the idea (Argos playing at BMO Field)", said Peter Montopoli, General Secretary of the Canadian Soccer Association. "It's the National Soccer Stadium -- the Argos had the opportunity to partner with us twice (at the University of Toronto and York University), and that time has passed."

Those are strong words coming from the CSA -- an organization that has been criticized over the years for its lack of ambition and vision for soccer in this country....

Although Gareth Wheeler did hedge his bets a bit with the last section despite the very anti-Argos stadium hijack headline inserted by the copy editor.

...And there are great supporters of the Argos at City Hall, including councillor Mark Grimes, who acts as chair of the Argos Foundation. He has expressed his desire to see the team move out of the Rogers Centre to BMO Field....But the argument can be made it would be money well-spent, if the case can be made that the move out of the Rogers Centre is vital to the survival of the CFL football team.

Interesting that Mark Grimes is pushing this Argos angle so hard. Back in 2005 he was the City of Toronto coucillor who actually initially pushed hardest for the stadium to be in Toronto when there was briefly talk of it being in Vaughan instead.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Soccer/Canada/2005/07/09/pf-1124258.html

Councillor Mark Grimes, who has been working feverishly behind the scenes to try and co-ordinate a deal between the city, the federal government and international sports management firm IMG, agrees the Ex is perfect, and the stadium could be used for concerts and even seating for future Molson Indys.

"I said to the mayor there's no way you can let this go to Vaughan," Grimes said, adding that the business case for the stadium works.

Grimes has met with IMG Canada's executive director, Kevin Albrecht, and with Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment in a bid to get a deal done. Bob Hunter, MLSE's senior v-p, said the Leafs want to bring a professional Major League Soccer franchise to the city, and a downtown stadium would be a great fit.

I suspect he thought pro soccer would fail miserably and the Argos would eventually be able to step in and inherit the stadium. Perhaps the "interesting timing" that Tom Anselmi alluded to referred to the grass installation, which was probably viewed by many as being the final confirmation that BMO Field would be a soccer specific stadium and the Argos were not going to be part of the equation. Viewed in that light the recent moves can be viewed as a desperate rear-guard action aimed at keeping future options open.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

This Globe & Mail story may shed further light on things:-

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/city-set-to-vote-on-proposed-bmo-field-expansion/article1382261/

More Toronto soccer fans will be able to cheer on the home team if a proposed stadium expansion at city-owned BMO Field wins approval later this week.

Toronto FC owner Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, which also manages BMO Field for the city, would pay the $2-million cost of adding 1,249 seats to the 20,000-seat stadium.

The proposal is in a report to be released today and to be debated Friday by the board of Exhibition Place, a city agency. Final city-council approval is expected in January, with construction completed in time for the next soccer season....

[CanadianSoccerFan]

This new north stand is good because it'll block the view from the beer garden and force everyone to actually watch the game from their seat.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by CanadianSoccerFan

This new north stand is good because it'll block the view from the beer garden and force everyone to actually watch the game from their seat.

The beer garden will still exist.

The new stand will be raised, with the first row of seating nine feet above the floor of the beer garden.

[Its Called Football]

Paul Beirne, director of TFC business operations, will be on It's Called Football tonight.

Argos, grass, expansion in the north end

9pm EST on www.thatchannel.com

Live chat up at www.24thminute.com

[Guest speedmonk42]

"Pent up demand from the multicultural community"

LOL.

This successful thing can't be Canadian....

[Richard]

^ So the multicultural community isn't Canadian?

[Guest speedmonk42]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

^ So the multicultural community isn't Canadian?

haha. No, not what I mean.

I am just commenting on the overemphasis of soccer being something 'alien'.

I am wondering if it can be used in a CFL is Canadian and soccer isn't leverage kind of way.

It is often written that the only reason TFC is successful is because of recent immigrants ect... ect... That if you want soccer to succeed you need to appeal to the 'ethnic' community ect... ect.....