Nov 18: Canada vs Poland [R]

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

The 'ordinary' striker still led his Bundesliga team in scoring last season.

That's not what I said and you know it. I said his strike rate in B1 was ordinary. Cool, he led his team in scoring but he finished 30th something among B1 best scorers last season. That's was an ordinary strike rate IMO. He was more impressive in B2.

Maybe the fact a CCC scout was there to see him can give us an indication of what the demand is for Rob.

[Gian-Luca]

FWIW I've put some thoughts up on the main page blog:

http://www.cansoc.org/?q=node/199

Just like this match, the comments are nothing to be excited about to be honest

[Guest Can. in UK]

quote:Originally posted by Lord Bob

Then I will provide you, and those who may share your opinion, with some of the relevant facts I cited.

Ali Gerba: 0.536 goals per national team appearance (15 in 28)

Ali Gerba against only CONCACAF hex teams: 0.231 (3 in 13)

Tomasz Radzinski: 0.213 (10 in 47)

Kevin McKenna: 0.196 (9 in 46)

Olivier Occean: 0.133 (2 in 15)

Simeon Jackson: 0.125 (1 in 8)

Paul Stalteri: 0.089 (7 in 79)

Rob Friend: 0.083 (2 in 24)

Iain Hume: 0.071 (2 in 28)

Issey Nakajima-Farran: 0.053 (1 in 19)

This is like arguing that Emile Heskey was/is useless for England. Yes, he doesn't score as much as other strikers but that wasn't/isn't his main purpose on the pitch.

Furthermore, I think you should check how many of those caps were for 90 minutes (or even 75 for that matter). Off the top of my head, I reckon about half.

[nolando]

quote:Originally posted by Lord Bob

Probably true, but are we ever going to get that kind of wing play? Is there any prospect of us dreaming of possibly maybe ever having that sort of lineup?

The point is not "Rob Friend is bad at soccer". The point is "Rob Friend is bad at soccer on the Canadian national team", which is an important distinction.

Agreed. He is extremely ineffective with Canada, especially as a lone striker. Case closed. Is he likely to get any better or any more motivated in the next four years as he passes 30 and beyond on the odometer? Doubt it.

Will his B1 strike rate have any effect on his productivity? Has it ever? Not that I have sen. It's not relevant information except in the case where a question of game fitness comes into the discussion. A game-form Friend has to beat out winter-vacation-gut Gerba if there is room for only one of the two on our roster.

I still don't see why we couldn't try Occean and Friend together up front, and really give it a chance over a few games, especially in games where a physical presence would be to our advantage. IMO, both men have decent aerial and ground skills and might even develop some chemistry.

[Lord Bob]

According to the CSA website, Rob Friend has played 1,454 career international minutes (counting a correction I made where Friend was credited with 89 minutes when he played only 63). Of his twenty-four caps, twelve were for eighty-nine minutes or longer, so I'm going to give you plaudits for that "about half" number. This gives Friend a total of one goal every 727 minutes.

By comparison: Iain Hume has, in spite of appearing in four more matches, appeared in a bit under half an hour more game time than Friend (1,483 minutes), giving him a goal every 741.5 minutes, meaning that Iain Hume, mostly as a midfielder, is nearly as effective a goalscorer as Rob Friend entirely as a striker.

Ali Gerba has played 1,782 minutes, scoring thirteen times, meaning he scores once every 137.1 minutes. He has played 807 minutes against the 2009 hex, scoring three times or once every 269 minutes.

Simeon Jackson has played 374 minutes and scored once.

I might end up running the numbers for the whole list. This is pretty interesting but if anything it makes Friend look worse.

[bettermirror]

quote:Originally posted by orletafc

You have to admit it is worriesome that we cannot produce quality players in a ratio that reflects the amount of players registered. But we all know the system is broken and won't be fixed until we get a few more Canadian teams playing at the level that the current 3clubs are.

We very much do produce players of quality. The problem is they are not identified, not given the opportunity to be identified, not sought out, and not given any thought on how to be sought out by the CSA (nor even the Whitecaps, despite what the Residency and the Prospects programs/Y League programs might suggest otherwise - trust me).

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by bettermirror

We very much do produce players of quality. The problem is they are not identified, not given the opportunity to be identified, not sought out, and not given any thought on how to be sought out by the CSA (nor even the Whitecaps, despite what the Residency and the Prospects programs/Y League programs might suggest otherwise - trust me).

Do tell?

[The Ref]

quote:Originally posted by dbailey62

No offense to Tommy Banks but don't you mean Gordon?

No offense to either, but yes, I meant Gordon. Who was a great guy, I remember attending one of his clinics after his retirement.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

Thank you Lord Bob. One less blog to read. And to nitpick with VPJr, Friend is in the Bundesliga because he can score goals in the Bundesliga (26 goals in 65 games in Bundesliga 1 and 2). He is known to be strong in the air of course, but he has scored more Bundesliga goals with his feet. If you want stats to back that statement up, just say so.

Ed, I know you have the stats...i've seen some of his goals with his feet...not always what I'd call "brilliant" strikes.

His work with his noggin, on the other hand, has impressed me quite a bit at the Bundesliga 1 and 2 level.

[Vic]

People refer to players like they're linear and refer to them in the absolute sense: they're great, they suck, etc, and then expect that every time they walk on a field. Not every golfer is Tiger Woods. Most athletes have a 2-3 week bubble in the year where the planets align. I've seen all these guy's (Friend, Gerba, etc) run hot and cold. Great coaches can sense who is peaking.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Can. in UK

Yes, he doesn't score as much as other strikers but that wasn't/isn't his main purpose on the pitch.

But then what is his purpose? He isn't scoring and the team is not scoring when he is in the lineup. The results seem to be better when he is not starting.

What gets me is that, even for a big man, his skills on the ball are very unimpressive.

[nolando]

quote:Originally posted by Vic

People refer to players like they're linear and refer to them in the absolute sense: they're great, they suck, etc, and then expect that every time they walk on a field. Not every golfer is Tiger Woods. Most athletes have a 2-3 week bubble in the year where the planets align. I've seen all these guy's (Friend, Gerba, etc) run hot and cold. Great coaches can sense who is peaking.

Jesus, if Friend is peaking right now (which he really should be age-wise) then I hate to see him play for Canada when his production starts to trail off.

[El Hombre]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

But then what is his purpose? He isn't scoring and the team is not scoring when he is in the lineup. The results seem to be better when he is not starting.

What gets me is that, even for a big man, his skills on the ball are very unimpressive.

It boggles the mind that this debate is going on and the amount of crap talked about big Rob. A couple statistics for you:

Winning percentage when Friend plays (no matter the number of minutes) - 33%

Winning percentage when Gerba plays (no matter the number of minutes) - 32%

Friend's average number of minutes against a team in the top 50 - 72 minutes/game (6 games)

Gerba's average number of minutes against a team in the top 50 - 63 minutes/game (10 games)

Friend's average number of minutes against a team ranked lower than 100 - 38 minutes/game (5 games)

Gerba's average number of minutes against a team ranked lower than 100 - 71 minutes/game (7 games)

Now, looking at these statistics as a whole, the following conclusions can be made:

1) Canada has just as good a winning percentage with Friend in the lineup than with Gerba.

2) On average, Friend plays more per game against top teams than Gerba, but not by much.

3) On average, Gerba plays quite a bit more per game against minnows than Friend.

To say that Friend has no business being on this team is ludicrous. Yes, Gerba is scoring at a good rate, however to sit down and use his goal totals as a yard stick is completely erroneous.

What should be done is Gerba and Friend should be partnered up top together. This way, Friend has someone to work off of which complements his game perfectly while he's also a big body presence up top to take the heat of Gerba.

Also, Lord Bob, to say that he has "won his share of caps, often in a starting or featured role." is wrong when he has started half of his 24 caps. The rest of your blog post was utterly infuriating because of how you completely ignore the other things he does on the field or any other intangibles. The amount of goals scored, as a team, when Friend is on the pitch is not that far off as Gerba's. It's definitely not as good, but to characterize him as the worst striker in the pool and to wax poetic about how bad he is like you do does the man a serious injustice.

Did you know that Hirschfeld keeps a clean sheet every 4.1 caps, while Onstad keeps a clean sheet every 2.6? or that Hirschfeld lets in 1.75 goals per game while Onstad is at 1.14? Can we expect a similar post calling for the end of the Hirschfeld era and bringing Onstad back? You've got to view stats with just a little bit of context.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by El Hombre

What should be done is Gerba and Friend should be partnered up top together. This way, Friend has someone to work off of which complements his game perfectly while he's also a big body presence up top to take the heat of Gerba.

It's worth noting that on Gerba's goal away to Mexico, both players were in the same area challenging for Hume's free kick. At least in that specific situation, it paid off.

[Lord Bob]

El Hombre, you are looking at exclusively team statistics and statistics that have nothing to do with Friend's performance (if I played ninety minutes in a match and Rob played sixty, that doesn't make me better than Rob Friend!). I think that I can safely say that using the man management skills of Canadian national head coaches is not a smart way to make your argument.

You're right when you say that I don't take into account Rob Friend's intangibles. That is because they are, well, intangible, and by definition impossible to quantify. When I watch Rob Friend, he looks poor to mediocre, so I can't make a "saw him good" defense because I haven't seen him good. I don't know whether he's a great leader in the dressing room or whatever. I do know that by eye he's not much of a defensive player, but that's okay because he's a striker.

You know what? If Onstad weren't in his forties, I'd be all for bringing him back.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by El Hombre

Did you know that Hirschfeld keeps a clean sheet every 4.1 caps, while Onstad keeps a clean sheet every 2.6? or that Hirschfeld lets in 1.75 goals per game while Onstad is at 1.14? Can we expect a similar post calling for the end of the Hirschfeld era and bringing Onstad back? You've got to view stats with just a little bit of context.

TBH, after yesterday game if Onstad was a young 34 years old keeper [], I would be all for him to be our starter again.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

Instead of arguing over whether Gerba or Friend scores more for Canada, why did we play without our top scorer in a top flight? Where the hell was DeRo? I am completely against this a la carte being a Canada player, you are or are not. No opting out or changes or deals.

By club play, the way I see it, we should have played with DeRo, Jackson and Haber. With Hutch in support. Go with the ones who have been scoring and that is that.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Instead of arguing over whether Gerba or Friend scores more for Canada, why did we play without our top scorer in a top flight? Where the hell was DeRo? I am completely against this a la carte being a Canada player, you are or are not. No opting out or changes or deals.

Hart said he wanted he was calling Euro based players only for this one. JDG (training in Europe) and Jakovic (lack of CB) were called because of special circumstances. That's Hart explanation and I guess that's why DeRo wasn't called for the trip..

I'm a bit worried with this idea of calling your squad based on geographical criterias.

If Hart idea is to give to take this opportunity to take a serious look at the Euro players and then take a look at the NA and Scandinavian based players in January, I'm fine with it. But if we start using this sort of roster selection at every opportunity, you'll have to ask if this is really a good thing. It will be the equivalent of having 2 teams and won't be good in the long run.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Instead of arguing over whether Gerba or Friend scores more for Canada, why did we play without our top scorer in a top flight? Where the hell was DeRo? I am completely against this a la carte being a Canada player, you are or are not. No opting out or changes or deals.

By club play, the way I see it, we should have played with DeRo, Jackson and Haber. With Hutch in support. Go with the ones who have been scoring and that is that.

Hart said that he never planned to bring any MLS players into this camp, and only called in De Guz and Jakovic because JDG was already in Germany on his own and there was a dearth of CB's.

It was mentioned that Hart told DeRo that he would not be calling him up this time around.

Coach's choice.

[FIRST ELEVEN]

By the way "LORD" BOB, are you any relation to Taylor lord, from the recent under 20 Mens team that just represented Canada at the Francophone games - Let me add right away that Ive been hearing that he is a Right Defence player to watch carefully as apparently he did very well at Francophone games. If you are my compliments to him and from what I have heard it would be nice to have him at the camp in January. Used to play with Monaco youth in France. Please give him our best if you are.

[nfitz]

In other words, we can't afford the air fare.

[Lord Bob]

quote:Originally posted by FIRST ELEVEN

By the way "LORD" BOB, are you any relation to Taylor lord, from the recent under 20 Mens team that just represented Canada at the Francophone games - Let me add right away that Ive been hearing that he is a Right Defence player to watch carefully as apparently he did very well at Francophone games. If you are my compliments to him and from what I have heard it would be nice to have him at the camp in January. Used to play with Monaco youth in France. Please give him our best if you are.

No relation. My nickname has nothing besides one letter in common with my actual name, sorry.

[El Hombre]

quote:Originally posted by Lord Bob

El Hombre, you are looking at exclusively team statistics and statistics that have nothing to do with Friend's performance (if I played ninety minutes in a match and Rob played sixty, that doesn't make me better than Rob Friend!). I think that I can safely say that using the man management skills of Canadian national head coaches is not a smart way to make your argument.

The entire essence of your blog post was that Friend is the worst striker we have based solely on his goals to caps ratio. You go on to give examples of how he's so bad, he has a worse ratio than some midfielders or defenders. To me, this is an incomplete yardstick with which to measure strikers. I believe that strikers should do more than just score goals and what I was trying to show was that the team wins just as often with Friend up front as they do with Ali, the Canadian Golden Boy. In my mind, not every goal scored is an 80-yard individual effort, but the culmination of the efforts of the entire team. Rob is a huge presence up front, due mainly to his height. You don't think that defenders may pay a little closer attention to him, leaving other players free(er) for chances? Or the fact that he is quite good holding the ball up which is especially useful for when we are under pressure in our own end?

Yes, Ali is an incredible goal scorer. No one is denying that. However, before you publicly slag other players, you should take into account every facet of their game. I think Rob brings a helluva lot to the table that he doesn't get credit for. I may be alone in that though.

quote:Originally posted by Lord Bob

You know what? If Onstad weren't in his forties, I'd be all for bringing him back.

Why should his age matter? Using your logic, his pure statistics say that he's far and away superior to Lars. Lets ride that pony until its time for the glue factory.

However, with Onstad, people see his age as a factor and the fact that he's given up some poor goals during some pretty important games. Why can't we take into account non-statistical factors when assessing Friend? For most games he plays, he's played as a lone target man while everybody else sits back. It's hard for world class strikers to excel in that role. The Poland game was the first I saw of him playing with a pure forward partner and I saw some good things: another step and he would've been on the end of the Radz pass and he did set up the one chance we had when he found Radz at the top of the box.

Like I said, I may be alone on this, but I'm happy to see Friend on the pitch, and I think playing both him and Ali G would be something special.

[bettermirror]

quote:Originally posted by El Hombre

It boggles the mind that this debate is going on and the amount of crap talked about big Rob. A couple statistics for you:

Winning percentage when Friend plays (no matter the number of minutes) - 33%

Winning percentage when Gerba plays (no matter the number of minutes) - 32%

Friend's average number of minutes against a team in the top 50 - 72 minutes/game (6 games)

Gerba's average number of minutes against a team in the top 50 - 63 minutes/game (10 games)

Friend's average number of minutes against a team ranked lower than 100 - 38 minutes/game (5 games)

Gerba's average number of minutes against a team ranked lower than 100 - 71 minutes/game (7 games)

Now, looking at these statistics as a whole, the following conclusions can be made:

1) Canada has just as good a winning percentage with Friend in the lineup than with Gerba.

2) On average, Friend plays more per game against top teams than Gerba, but not by much.

3) On average, Gerba plays quite a bit more per game against minnows than Friend.

To say that Friend has no business being on this team is ludicrous. Yes, Gerba is scoring at a good rate, however to sit down and use his goal totals as a yard stick is completely erroneous.

What should be done is Gerba and Friend should be partnered up top together. This way, Friend has someone to work off of which complements his game perfectly while he's also a big body presence up top to take the heat of Gerba.

Also, Lord Bob, to say that he has "won his share of caps, often in a starting or featured role." is wrong when he has started half of his 24 caps. The rest of your blog post was utterly infuriating because of how you completely ignore the other things he does on the field or any other intangibles. The amount of goals scored, as a team, when Friend is on the pitch is not that far off as Gerba's. It's definitely not as good, but to characterize him as the worst striker in the pool and to wax poetic about how bad he is like you do does the man a serious injustice.

Did you know that Hirschfeld keeps a clean sheet every 4.1 caps, while Onstad keeps a clean sheet every 2.6? or that Hirschfeld lets in 1.75 goals per game while Onstad is at 1.14? Can we expect a similar post calling for the end of the Hirschfeld era and bringing Onstad back? You've got to view stats with just a little bit of context.

I am sorry guys, I don't mean to be offensive here, because I come to this board daily and read/comment too....BUT>...

You've got way too much time on your hands.

[El Hombre]

^ Yeah, that actually took a lot of research. I'm paying for it at work today.

Fun stuff though.