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Confirmed: The TOA League Split is Happening


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quote:Originally posted by morbital

wow grizz, used to like you, but ever since you screwed us on june 18 and won the usl championship, you've become a pompous ass.

Come on morbital, credit where it's due. He was a pompous ass long before then. :D[:P]

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Jeffrey:

I would tend to agree with your points about respecting public process were it not for the fact that it was mayor Larry Campbell who courted Kerfoot from the very beginning and asked him to build, even going as far as to directing city staff to devote hundreds of man hours to assisting him with identifying and studying sites throughout the city.

They told him to grab land in False Creek... two sites were pointed out to him... one on the south shore, and one next to the train station. Sadly, LC and his COPE council yanked the rug out from under him in attempt to save their own political asses. They knew they were about to be trounced in the election, so they zoned the sites for low income housing as a means to grab the poverty vote.

Enter Sam Sullivan and the NPA, who also had planning staff working with Kerfoot over the next two to three years. They pushed him into buying lands up the old Empire site, and also proposed a spot off Cambie Street just off the Canada Line.

Then, quite unexpectedly, Fairmont put the Waterfront lands up for sale. Kerfoot says, "Wow, should I?" And the city says, "Wow, we might be able to make this work."

So Kerfoot scoops it up, knowing that although there are no guarantees he can build the stadium, the self-generating income from the railyards provides his football club with financial stability for decades to come. There's no insidious motive there to screw the public, that's just smart business.

But here's where I really have to call you out...

You suggest he hasn't respected the public process....

Are you not aware that Kerfoot contributed several hundreds of thousands of dollars to the city's planning department for the purpose of exploring the NEGATIVE impacts his stadium might have on the neighbourhood? And that he also covered the cost of several open house forums, run entirely by the city, where the public could give their input directly to city staff?

Kerfoot is a man who has done everything BUT steamroll the public interest on this one, nor has he approached this project with any sense of entitlement. For you to suggest otherwise is a steaming pile of uninformed crap.

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Sorry, you don't buy land for a stadium without approval and expect the city just to rubber stamp it. That is arrogant, and a lack of respect for public process. The public interest has no obligation to rubber stamp someone spending money on projects that are not approved. Are you going go buy land in Kits to build a casino, or a senior's garden, or a holding tank for sick whales, and then ask the casino, garden or whale pool to be approved? No, you are going to get approval first, or at least ensure the process is feasible and legal, then buy the land.

I'm not totally on the up and up on the whole stadium history, but it's been mentioned on here that Kerfoot had some civic influence when he originally made the purchase. Assuming this is the case, maybe he was privy to some other information about the approval process that we don't know about? Maybe he was assured approval at one point and got screwed at another?

Just a thought...

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Guest Jeffery S.
quote:Originally posted by Johnnie Monster

Jeffrey:

I would tend to agree with your points about respecting public process were it not for the fact that it was mayor Larry Campbell who courted Kerfoot from the very beginning and asked him to build, even going as far as to directing city staff to devote hundreds of man hours to assisting him with identifying and studying sites throughout the city.

They told him to grab land in False Creek... two sites were pointed out to him... one on the south shore, and one next to the train station. Sadly, LC and his COPE council yanked the rug out from under him in attempt to save their own political asses. They knew they were about to be trounced in the election, so they zoned the sites for low income housing as a means to grab the poverty vote.

Enter Sam Sullivan and the NPA, who also had planning staff working with Kerfoot over the next two to three years. They pushed him into buying lands up the old Empire site, and also proposed a spot off Cambie Street just off the Canada Line.

Then, quite unexpectedly, Fairmont put the Waterfront lands up for sale. Kerfoot says, "Wow, should I?" And the city says, "Wow, we might be able to make this work."

So Kerfoot scoops it up, knowing that although there are no guarantees he can build the stadium, the self-generating income from the railyards provides his football club with financial stability for decades to come. There's no insidious motive there to screw the public, that's just smart business.

But here's where I really have to call you out...

You suggest he hasn't respected the public process....

Are you not aware that Kerfoot contributed several hundreds of thousands of dollars to the city's planning department for the purpose of exploring the NEGATIVE impacts his stadium might have on the neighbourhood? And that he also covered the cost of several open house forums, run entirely by the city, where the public could give their input directly to city staff?

Kerfoot is a man who has done everything BUT steamroll the public interest on this one, nor has he approached this project with any sense of entitlement. For you to suggest otherwise is a steaming pile of uninformed crap.

Johnnie, I am sure you are better informed than I am. It is quite possible Kerfoot has been screwed around by public officials, and that would not surprise me because in general, when it comes to leadership regarding things like important symbolic infrastructures, they have proven to be useless from one city administration to another.

But I find it hard to believe, Kerfoot being the intelligent businessman that he has proven to be, and from what he knows about public institutions in Vancouver, that he would just go and shell out millions on the advice of a mayor or anyone else. If you are suggesting he did not do his own feasibility study, ask his lawyers, and get advice from his professionals, that is hard to believe. Okay I was exagerrating to say Kerfoot was being a pushy millionaire, but you are making it sound like Kerfoot is a dupe and an inept businessperson in the hands of manipulative municipal politicians. I don't know what is a worse insinuation, yours or mine.

But I still don't rule out my interpretation entirely, because as we speak, and every day the debate goes on, Kerfoot is making a large sum of money on those waterfront lands, which he would not be making on any other site he could have ended up with. So don't make Kerfoot into an angel because he is getting back more from the waterfront income than what he paid in what you are suggesting was serious "research".

PS, the waterfront site is fine, I think something great could be done there, but those renderings are crap, disgraceful architecture and cheap looking (the view is not the building, you have to remind Vancouverites that all the time). It also conceived as a stadium that is too small for Vancouver's legitimate ambition. If you can't build a flagship piece of architecture on the waterfront with a capacity for 32-35 thousand and a really impressive presence on the site, better not bother. Learn to live and love BC Place, and just rake in the cash from the shunting rights in the meantime.

And enough of this ridiculous hagiographical treatment of Greg Kerfoot.

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Jeffrey:

See, this is where you are missing the mark.

OF COURSE he bought the lands with another purpose in mind: the rail yard income. I'm not suggesting for a second that he was duped. I'm in complete agreement with you on this.

Regardless if a stadium will be permitted to stand there or not, that land is one hell of an investment. I just ran the tax records on the two lots Kerfoot scooped up from Fairmont.

First point worth noting that these lands are owned outright. No mortgages are held against them. Kerfoot shelled out the whole enchilada without any need for backing form the banks (about $24 million). This is important because it means he is not paying off a loan on this site... it's all his.

In addition to the rail income, the tax assessed value on the two sites has crept up about $2 million since 2006. So if he were to sell tomorrow, he would likely be at least $2 million richer simply thanks to the passage of time. That's about 25 years of salary for me, earned in a fraction of the time with no elbow grease.

It's not rocket science - if I can see the potential, I'm sure his financial advisors did too. Stadium or no stadium, that land was an excellent acquisition.

The developers behind the anti-stadium campaign had their own proposal for a boardwalk marketplace like Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco, or Pike's Market in Seattle. If the verdict is ever handed down that the stadium will NEVER go ahead, Kerfoot may want to consider building such a market and collecting rent from all the tenants.

And as for my hagiographical views of Mr. Kerfoot (wow, somebody got a thesaurus for Christmas!), the fact is there is *nobody* in this country who has invested in amateur and professional soccer infrastructure and programming to the level that he has. As far as I'm concerned, he's the patron saint of Canadian soccer... and if he's too modest to crow about his contributions, I'm quite pleased as a grateful fan to do it on his behalf.

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quote:Originally posted by morbital

wow grizz, used to like you, but ever since you screwed us on june 18 and won the usl championship, you've become a pompous ass.

Well as Rudi so eloquently posted :D, whether or not you think I am a pompous ass (and I don't really care either way), the events of June 18th or the Championship game didn't really have much effect on my personality one way or another.

I can certainly recall that you were involved in an a large number of pissing contests when you were posting here more frequently many of which you initiated yourself. I don't really care one way or another about that but do find it pretty ironic and hypocritical for you to complain about that given your posting history.

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Further to Mr Kerfoot's benevolance...

Any other aggressive and smart businesman would have paid people off in this process. (Read, the sleazy Francisco Aquilini). Mr Kerfoot has done everything above board, with patience, and with soccer's best interests at heart. Would he like to one day build a condo or office tower adjacent to the stadium? Why wouldn't he. But approach that with the same care and respect for the process that he has for the stadium. The Port People are literally trying to extort money from him. A person of Aquilini's ilk would have greased them years ago.

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