DoyleG Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 quote:Originally posted by SthMelbRed The Whitecaps have always maintained that they'd be playing an U-23 side in USL-1 after the first team jumped to MLS. Is it uninteresting only because they'll not be part of USL-1, but rather the proposed new league now? If the primary motivation behind running the team is player development, will weak attendances matter? And if the Whitecaps' 'B' team is the only game in town in, let's say Edmonton or Kelowna, would they suffer the same as the Canucks' 'B' team does as the only game in town in Winnipeg? Football fans will come out to watch a good product if the experience is good and the quality is decent, even if there is a better product in another town or on TV. Will Edmonton come out to watch a team that is basically a developmental squad for the Caps? Not a chance. If that were the case, there would be a increase in the number of such teams in all sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macksam Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 quote:Originally posted by DoyleG Will Edmonton come out to watch a team that is basically a developmental squad for the Caps? Not a chance. If that were the case, there would be a increase in the number of such teams in all sports. Why not? You'll get a good chance at seeing the future stars of the MLS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 quote:Originally posted by DoyleG Will Edmonton come out to watch a team that is basically a developmental squad for the Caps? Not a chance. If that were the case, there would be a increase in the number of such teams in all sports. Doyle is right, and I would go firther to say Edmonton could not support a pro soccer team at any level, not without a seachange in attitude there. I would suggest that Victoria or Kelowna would make more sense both for proximity and for being something the public can get involved in without too much competition from pro teams in other sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamiltonfan Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 This better not be an AHL-NHL type deal. It wont fly, horrible idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 quote:Originally posted by beachesl Doyle is right, and I would go firther to say Edmonton could not support a pro soccer team at any level, not without a seachange in attitude there. I would suggest that Victoria or Kelowna would make more sense both for proximity and for being something the public can get involved in without too much competition from pro teams in other sports. I'm pretty sure Edmonton could work at if it was done right - who knows exactly what that means but it likely is related to very committed ownership with deep pockets. But I don't see them supporting a Whitecaps farm team. Development without results will not bring in fans. If it did, the Calgary Storm would still exist as their clubs were loaded with young talent that lost a lot. Nobody came to watch a 16 year old Nik Ledgerwood with Lars Hirschfeld and Ryan Gyaki amongst others - they stayed away because the team lost a lot. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandstander Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Jason I'm pretty sure Edmonton could work at if it was done right - who knows exactly what that means but it likely is related to very committed ownership with deep pockets. But I don't see them supporting a Whitecaps farm team. Development without results will not bring in fans. If it did, the Calgary Storm would still exist as their clubs were loaded with young talent that lost a lot. Nobody came to watch a 16 year old Nik Ledgerwood with Lars Hirschfeld and Ryan Gyaki amongst others - they stayed away because the team lost a lot. Jason Although I agree in part, looking at the last two years of the Caps residency program, as well as recent results on trips to Spain, Japan and the Dallas Cup, the team Edmonton would be watching would be a better product. Feeder clubs are nothing new in North American or European sport. I would like to see the Caps start a team in Kelowna if the market is ready for it. Watching the Caps continue to invest in soccer development and infrastructure in BC would be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 The problem is that the feeder system ideal has never really caught on in Canada. People know that such teams are solely controlled by the parent club not just on who plays with the team but what role they have. This proposal has the looks and sounds of the NHL-AHL example, and attempts by Canadian teams to build successful feeder systems in Canada have been rather disappointing. The idea of Edmonton fans watching a team in which the game plan is dictated back in Vancouver, rather than with the coaches on the field, won't bring out the fans. Its much the reasons why the CHL and the various independent league baseball teams have been able to build a market. They are only responsible to themselves and their fans. If the big guys want their talent, they have to jump through the hoops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Passive Observer Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Edmonton will only fly if they compete in the Nutralite Canadian Championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SthMelbRed Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 quote:Originally posted by DoyleG Will Edmonton come out to watch a team that is basically a developmental squad for the Caps? Not a chance. If that were the case, there would be a increase in the number of such teams in all sports. I'm sure that there is a market for good quality football in Edmonton, Calgary, or Winnipeg, even if it's a development team for a club whose first team is competing at a higher level. If it's done right, meaning it's a decent playing standard and a good atmosphere, true fans of the game will come out. In Vancouver, being in Tripe-A or Single-A doesn't stop people from heading down to Nat Bailey on a nice, summer day to watch some baseball. The crowds won't likely reach five figures, but I can't see why they can't draw a couple of thousand fans per game. Crowds might not reach a level that would prevent an idependent club from going under after half a season (as we all know has happened in the past) but may still be acceptable to a guy like Kerfoot when he knows that the losses he might endure are merely an investment towards his overall football business. As for Edmonton football fans not accepting a Whitecaps U-23 team or reserve side, it might be a question of that or nothing. If somebody does eventually come forward and put the required investment in to start an independent club, you better hope and pray that the Edmonton fans do their part because yet another failed attempt at making pro football work there will likely be the last one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 If it's done right, expanding into new Canadian markets, even as a 2nd tier league I'm pretty sure a club operated on a higher end USL 1st Div model would and could be sustainable. There are endless off-field resources which can be shared between the parent club and the subsidiary which add value at both ends of the equations. That is to say, are mutually beneficial. Especially to the subsidiary club as it creates an impression of belonging to something greater as well as being a more serious & professional operation than it's standing in a 2nd tier league would otherwise warrant. For years there was a short list of USL 1st Div clubs who were clearly playing in a league below their caliber. As those clubs move on to MLS there is no reason to suspect similar impressions cannot be recreated in other locations in NASL Part 2. But it's got to be done right from the very 1st step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandstander Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 quote:Originally posted by DoyleG The problem is that the feeder system ideal has never really caught on in Canada. People know that such teams are solely controlled by the parent club not just on who plays with the team but what role they have. This proposal has the looks and sounds of the NHL-AHL example, and attempts by Canadian teams to build successful feeder systems in Canada have been rather disappointing. The idea of Edmonton fans watching a team in which the game plan is dictated back in Vancouver, rather than with the coaches on the field, won't bring out the fans. Its much the reasons why the CHL and the various independent league baseball teams have been able to build a market. They are only responsible to themselves and their fans. If the big guys want their talent, they have to jump through the hoops. It works in hockey. Abbotsford, Manitoba, Victoria, Hamilton all feed upward and do pretty food. I know in Canada, soccer may be hit and miss in certian markets. However Edmonton hasn't proven it could support a team without links to another club, so maybe the reverse is true. They will support a feeder team with some promising names coming through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Grandstander It works in hockey. Abbotsford, Manitoba, Victoria, Hamilton all feed upward and do pretty food. I know in Canada, soccer may be hit and miss in certian markets. However Edmonton hasn't proven it could support a team without links to another club, so maybe the reverse is true. They will support a feeder team with some promising names coming through. Abbotsford: In its first season and they have trouble filling the arena to even a half-filled state. Its the Flames in Nucks territory (never works when you step into another teams turf) and their numbers are wtill below even the Flames worst seasons in Saint John. They also suffer since they have to play the visiting team on 2 consecutive nights. Hamilton and Manitoba: Even having successful teams doesn't do you good in getting attendance to improve. Both of these cities consider themselves NHL in waiting so they have no real reason to be attached to their teams. Toronto: They don't care about the Marlies, even with MLSE backing. Nuff said. Victoria: These guys built themselves up before the Nucks even bothered to come on board. They started out as an independent team, not as a feeder club. They don't have a solid future with the WHL shadow over it. The AHL is littered with numbers of failed Canadian franchises, which shows that the feeder system for hockey just doesn't work in this country, especially since two existing cities want back into the NHL. Once again, if the concept of the feeder system is successful, there would be feeder teams in every sport in this country. If you really thin that the Vancouver Canadians are a good example, then you haven't been outside the lower mainland in some time. Especially considering that its now increasing isolated by independent league teams that can offer a high level of competition. You are really foolish if you think Edmonton fans would serve the be the Whitecaps b!tch. This being the case when the Caps had an opportunity to support soccer in this city and dropped the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnie Monster Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Hey Doyle, Can you explain your last comment about the Caps dropping the ball in Edmonton? I have no idea what you are talking about there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadianfoot Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Passive Observer Edmonton will only fly if they compete in the Nutralite Canadian Championship. Caps, Impact, TFC each with a USL1 team or a NASL team. Victoria and London FC has a chance to join in maybe the TOA or USL depending how deep their pockets are. To the point, theorically that's 6teams that would compete in the V-Cup wonder if that would be in a round robin format or 2x3groups with each group winner playing the other for the single spot. As for Caps,Impact and TFC well I am sure they are aware that playing a secondary team is an investment in the future for a talent pool. Not necesairely a financial gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadianfoot Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 And by the way anyone knows what will happen with the people that have already purchased tickets? What about pricing? Since the TOA doesn't even know how many teams will be playing as the numbers can still change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Jason I'm pretty sure Edmonton could work at if it was done right - who knows exactly what that means but it likely is related to very committed ownership with deep pockets. But I don't see them supporting a Whitecaps farm team. Development without results will not bring in fans. If it did, the Calgary Storm would still exist as their clubs were loaded with young talent that lost a lot. Nobody came to watch a 16 year old Nik Ledgerwood with Lars Hirschfeld and Ryan Gyaki amongst others - they stayed away because the team lost a lot. Jason Hey, I resemble that remark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Johnnie Monster Hey Doyle, Can you explain your last comment about the Caps dropping the ball in Edmonton? I have no idea what you are talking about there. You've already forgotten about 2004. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnie Monster Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 ???? No seriously! Maybe I'll be slapping my forehead in a minute or two, but what grave injustice did the Caps do to Edmonton in 2004? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 They had an opportunity to step up and push to have Edmonton and Calgary stay in the USL. All they would've needed to do was promote the importance of having owners who would be capable of supporting a franchise. Its quite clear that Whitecaps, along with Canadian Soccer, dropped the ball when they got blinded by the lights of MLS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Oh C'mon. That's a reach. MLS wasn't on the Caps' radar in 2004. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piltdownman Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 quote:Originally posted by DoyleG They had an opportunity to step up and push to have Edmonton and Calgary stay in the USL. All they would've needed to do was promote the importance of having owners who would be capable of supporting a franchise. Its quite clear that Whitecaps, along with Canadian Soccer, dropped the ball when they got blinded by the lights of MLS. So its the Whitecaps fault that the Edmonton ownership group was crazy? How does playing in a massive cold war stadium, and alternating between having the womens and mens team being the main event the Whitecaps fault? Or are you saying the whitecaps should have just took over these teams after their ownership ran them into the ground? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piltdownman Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Ed Oh C'mon. That's a reach. MLS wasn't on the Caps' radar in 2004. I was in the room in the fall of 2005 when they announced the waterfront stadium. That is after they tried to work something out with the city for the false creek flats. Based on that timeline, I would say MLS was very much in their plans in 2004. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 quote:Originally posted by piltdownman So its the Whitecaps fault that the Edmonton ownership group was crazy? How does playing in a massive cold war stadium, and alternating between having the womens and mens team being the main event the Whitecaps fault? Or are you saying the whitecaps should have just took over these teams after their ownership ran them into the ground? Its called a public push to persuade new owners to take over the team and run it. It seems that the idea of helping find owners to take over the Edmonton and Calgary teams was more of a negative compared to letting them die. So its pretty rich to suggest that Edmonton would become home to the Whitecaps "developmental" team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 It's pretty rich that you're blaming the owners of another team for the failings of your local ownership. Typical loser mentality from DoyleG. I'm surprised you haven't blamed Toronto as well (yet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Rudi It's pretty rich that you're blaming the owners of another team for the failings of your local ownership. Typical loser mentality from DoyleG. I'm surprised you haven't blamed Toronto as well (yet). Its called taking leadership to improve the state of soccer in Canada. I can't blame Toronto since all of those supporting TFC are bending over for MLSE and how it runs the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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