Richard Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 The PDL is an U-23 league but currently allows up to 8 overage players. The stated intent was to enter the U-23 side in USL-1 but presumably this will now be in the breakaway league if it gets off he ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Eric ^ I like this "There is no FIFA regulation stipulating that member leagues be owned by their respective clubs, and in many cases around the world, leagues consist of individual clubs that play in league competitions managed by the respective Federation such as the English leagues (excluding the Premiership), Bundesliga (Germany), La Liga (Spain) and Mexican Primera Division." why doesn't the CSA grow some balls once and for all and organize a professional league, just like everybody else around the world? Excuse me, but can you tell me who makes up the Football Association? It is the clubs that convene and vote as members of the association. That is totally the opposite of what the new USL "owners" are doing. This is unbelievable. Black is white. Up is down. Democracy is dictatorship. Eric, these national associations generally grew from clubs banding together to create them. National associations have not generally created leagues out of nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by ted Excuse me, but can you tell me who makes up the Football Association? It is the clubs that convene and vote as members of the association. That is totally the opposite of what the new USL "owners" are doing. This is unbelievable. Black is white. Up is down. Democracy is dictatorship. Eric, these national associations generally grew from clubs banding together to create them. National associations have not generally created leagues out of nothing. ted, you are simple wrong on that. It is clubs, technical officials, referees, players, former players. You are mistaken. What may be true in fact, that clubs have a big say in leagues, is not normally true constitutionally or legally, all you have to do it look at a few websites and you will see this. I don't get this insistence on a spurious argument to defend the illegitimacy of the USL: exactly what is the point of slagging an organization that has given Canada its best pro soccer for years and its only decent head to head rivalries on a pro level? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by ted Excuse me, but can you tell me who makes up the Football Association? It is the clubs that convene and vote as members of the association. That is totally the opposite of what the new USL "owners" are doing. This is unbelievable. Black is white. Up is down. Democracy is dictatorship. Eric, these national associations generally grew from clubs banding together to create them. National associations have not generally created leagues out of nothing. ted, notice the highlighted/bold phrase? the most important word in that phrase is managed, that is all I'm asking the CSA to do. The problem here is that they are not even good enough to do that, because I'm positive that we have as many as 40 or 50 clubs in Canada, that would be more than whiling to take part in a National League (divided in Regions of course) if our National Association would have the will and balls to managed it or organize it. We're not like the rest of the world when comes down to soccer (not kidding), we don't have the passion that other fans around the world have, yes I know that some people here are going to tell me speak for yourself but then again there're many delusional "soccer fans" in Canada anyway. Getting back to the point, the way most national leagues developed around the world was simply based on the need for the individual clubs to compete against each other in an organize manner. Obviously they need it a higher organization to take care of that problem and that was the way national associations were born everywhere. Obviously the driving force behind the initiative was the senior clubs of course. The problem here is that "the make believe soccer experts" in our country want to build professional soccer organizations staring from the wrong end, basically they want to start with the grassroots to then develop into the senior teams....what a joke. So ted here is when I appreciate your description of how things work here "This is unbelievable. Black is white. Up is down. Democracy is dictatorship" but you have to consider that we live in a country where soccer (in the way that exist here) feeds a lot of people who are basically ignorant about the sport and keeping it amateur for ever is the only way many of those wannabe will keep milking the cow for ever. Only the CSA can change this ted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Spiers Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Eric ted, notice the highlighted/bold phrase? the most important word in that phrase is managed, that is all I'm asking the CSA to do. The problem here is that they are not even good enough to do that, because I'm positive that we have as many as 40 or 50 clubs in Canada, that would be more than whiling to take part in a National League (divided in Regions of course) if our National Association would have the will and balls to managed it or organize it. Eric: Are you aware of the CUSL saga (2000 to 2002)? (I know Ted is). If not, it may be worthwhile to review the CSA efforts to establish a true National League in Canada at that time. As I recall, they were aiming at "8 first division teams in 8 major markets" in order to launch the league and had a number of financial commitments in place. Unfortunately, they failed to find those 8 teams, particularly when the then-existing A-League teams pulled out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redhat Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 ^ good point, Bill. The issues surrounding CSA efforts to "assist" or "manage" or "help establish" a league within a geographic framework like Canada's is very complex. I know they tried in the past, and results are "mixed" to say it nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Bill Spiers Eric: Are you aware of the CUSL saga (2000 to 2002)? (I know Ted is). If not, it may be worthwhile to review the CSA efforts to establish a true National League in Canada at that time. As I recall, they were aiming at "8 first division teams in 8 major markets" in order to launch the league and had a number of financial commitments in place. Unfortunately, they failed to find those 8 teams, particularly when the then-existing A-League teams pulled out. Bill, are you going to tell me that 8 to 9 years after that saga you've mentioned, the soccer scene still the same as it was back then? come on....we have different people in place now, that can try again if they want to. It is like I said before, they don't have the passion for the sport, to them is just a job, easy money in a soccer ignorant country. Let's face it most people in power in the country's soccer scene NEVER PLAY soccer at a professional or any serious level and most of them have passion but for other sports. Eight years ago we had none of what we have now, it's time to try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. ted, you are simple wrong on that. It is clubs, technical officials, referees, players, former players. You are mistaken. What may be true in fact, that clubs have a big say in leagues, is not normally true constitutionally or legally, all you have to do it look at a few websites and you will see this. Read the FA Rules & Regulations then tell me I am wrong. It took me about 35 seconds to find this document that clearly demonstrates I am correct. BTW despite your malicious and false accusation that I am somehow "slagging" the USL let me be crystal clear. I am opposed to the dictatorship of the new owners of the USL who "bought" the organization recently. As far as I am concerned the USL is made up of clubs like the 2009 USL1 Champions and the other members of the TOA. Not just a single rich guy who thinks he knows better than every other owner, manager and administrator in the USL organization. quote:Originally posted by Eric Eight years ago we had none of what we have now, it's time to try again. Actually now it is even worse than when the CUSL idea failed. Now we have MLS teams taking prime markets out of the mix. There is no way in hell that teams with $1 million dollar annual budgets are gonnna be created in a league that does NOT include Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. We still need the USL or whatever emerges from this confrontation to provide a professional second division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by redhat ^ good point, Bill. The issues surrounding CSA efforts to "assist" or "manage" or "help establish" a league within a geographic framework like Canada's is very complex. I know they tried in the past, and results are "mixed" to say it nicely. The situation is even more complex now with MLS/USL-1/PDL in the mix than it was back then and will get more so if the new TOA league is even halfway successful. So the chances of CSA success are significantly poorer now even than back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Spiers Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Eric Bill, are you going to tell me that 8 to 9 years after that saga you've mentioned, the soccer scene still the same as it was back then? come on....we have different people in place now, that can try again if they want to. It is like I said before, they don't have the passion for the sport, to them is just a job, easy money in a soccer ignorant country. Let's face it most people in power in the country's soccer scene NEVER PLAY soccer at a professional or any serious level and most of them have passion but for other sports. Eight years ago we had none of what we have now, it's time to try again. I didn't say don't try again ... I said review the CUSL saga. A lot of money and effort went into that project. Learn from what they did ... right and wrong. "Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it". And I'm surprised you know the "people in power" so well! "Just a job", "easy money", "most of them have a passion ... for other sports". Who on earth are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by ted Actually now it is even worse than when the CUSL idea failed. Now we have MLS teams taking prime markets out of the mix. There is no way in hell that teams with $1 million dollar annual budgets are gonnna be created in a league that does NOT include Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. We still need the USL or whatever emerges from this confrontation to provide a professional second division. MLS teams taking prime markets out of the mix? are you kidding me? we have 5 million people in the GTA alone, why should we be represent by ONE CLUB only? There are countries around the world, where their professional league is run out of one single city you know! Ted, where there's will power there's action. Toronto is my city too, I work here, I pay taxes, my sport is soccer and I don't want TFC to be the only representation of my city, one of the most multicultural cities in the world deserves to have different representations other than the Brtish one, this is long overdue imo. There's enough money, room and soccer fans in the GTA alone, to at least have two to four more fully professional clubs. I'm sure the same goes for Quebec and BC. Just get out of the box and make it happen CSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Bill Spiers And I'm surprised you know the "people in power" so well! "Just a job", "easy money", "most of them have a passion ... for other sports". Who on earth are you talking about? Since you ask the question, why don't you (as an insider) answer it to me. Who in a position of power in the CSA or the OSA (I'm talking about the suits) played professional soccer and where? You for example, I know you never played, so please go ahead and tell me who has a professional background and is presently working in the office of the CSA or OSA? and provide links please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piltdownman Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 ^So you aren't considered passionate about the game if you haven't played professional soccer? Well I guess I should take the art down from my walls, get my tattoo removed, cancel my season tickets to the highlanders and whitecaps, stop travelling to matches, bin the hundred odd football DVDs I've purchases, clean out half the stuff in my closet, stop playing pick up in the park and stop watching a dozen games a week because I'll never be passionate, as I never have and never will play professionally. Oddly though the one field I am professional in, surveillance and intelligence, I am not passionate about at all. Its a job, which I like, but I am in no way passionate about the industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 ^ Where did I said that? where did that come from? at least stick to what I wrote if you're going to reply to my post, don't make up stuff dude!!! There you go,(responding to your edit) you're saying yours is a job and that's all, which is exactly what I said about the people involved in making decisions about the future of soccer in Canada. Well, I don't think soccer is a 9 to 5 job and I hope it should never become that, soccer is a way of life in most countries around the world, it influence culture, language and every day living.......so yes, if you're point is that you need to be passionate to make decisions at a national or provincial level, then yes, I would hope that you are passionate and in love with the sport or stay out of it and watch from the outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Montagliani's bio when he was up for President indicated he played Serie C. No idea of which team, or if he ever made the field in a competitive game... Of course, I am not sure of where you are going with the question as Mo Johnston did play professionally and frankly, I wouldn't want him in charge of the CSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Eric MLS teams taking prime markets out of the mix? are you kidding me? we have 5 million people in the GTA alone, why should we be represent by ONE CLUB only? There are countries around the world, where their professional league is run out of one single city you know! Ted, where there's will power there's action. Toronto is my city too, I work here, I pay taxes, my sport is soccer and I don't want TFC to be the only representation of my city, one of the most multicultural cities in the world deserves to have different representations other than the Brtish one, this is long overdue imo. There's enough money, room and soccer fans in the GTA alone, to at least have two to four more fully professional clubs. I'm sure the same goes for Quebec and BC. Just get out of the box and make it happen CSA. It sounds so easy, doesn't it? Eric, I have a bridge to sell you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Gordon Montagliani's bio when he was up for President indicated he played Serie C. No idea of which team, or if he ever made the field in a competitive game... Of course, I am not sure of where you are going with the question as Mo Johnston did play professionally and frankly, I wouldn't want him in charge of the CSA. Anybody that played at Serie C in Italy should be easy to find in the web, I try and I didn't find anything, did you? What does Mo have to do with the CSA? now I'm not sure where you're going with this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Rudi Eric, I have a bridge to sell you. Rudi, is that bridge call CSA Pathway to Excellence by any chance? sorry, I'm not interested....it's broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Eric Anybody that played at Serie C in Italy should be easy to find in the web, I try and I didn't find anything, did you? What does Mo have to do with the CSA? now I'm not sure where you're going with this! Are Serie C rosters from 12-15+ years ago widely available on the web? http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2007/10/19/csa_president/ is the best I can do from work. All of the information undoubtedly not verified and supplied by Montagliani himself. As for my comment about Mo it is simply this. Playing professionally, or even being passionate about about a sport, is no gauge of competence. Now I'll be honest with you Eric, you'll not find a bigger critic of the CSA than me. Even though I try to be fair, there is just so much fodder. So you are preaching to the converted in this case. But when you say "they don't have the passion for the sport, to them is just a job, easy money in a soccer ignorant country" well, the burden of proof is on you. "Easy money" in Canadian soccer? Good Lord Man, only MLSE has that gig, nobody else. The President of the CSA is a medical professor at McGill and you think he is in it for the "easy money"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Gordon, anybody earning any type of money (even if it is a small amount) at the top in the CSA committee, is making easy money, simply because they haven't produce anything till now that we can all be proud of.......NOTHING!!!!.....I hope they can change that soon and I'll be the first one supporting them, but somehow I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Eric Since you ask the question, why don't you (as an insider) answer it to me. Who in a position of power in the CSA or the OSA (I'm talking about the suits) played professional soccer and where? You for example, I know you never played, so please go ahead and tell me who has a professional background and is presently working in the office of the CSA or OSA? and provide links please. Without passing judgement on any of the CSA suits' ability to do their respective jobs or their passion for the game (or otherwise) or indeed the veracity of their resumes, it is absolutely not necessary to have been a professional player in order to be an effective, passionate and capable executive or administrator of a soccer association. In fact I would be very wary of anybody who has little more to offer than having been a pro footballer if that is your most important criterion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Spiers Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Eric Gordon, anybody earning any type of money (even if it is a small amount) at the top in the CSA committee, is making easy money, simply because they haven't produce anything till now that we can all be proud of.......NOTHING!!!!.....I hope they can change that soon and I'll be the first one supporting them, but somehow I doubt it. Eric ... do you really believe that people on the CSA Executive, the CSA Board or on CSA Committees earn any money? Same with the OSA? Their expenses are covered but other than that, they get nothing. (They must do it because of their passion for the game!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Richard Without passing judgement on any of the CSA suits' ability to do their respective jobs or their passion for the game (or otherwise) or indeed the veracity of their resumes, it is absolutely not necessary to have been a professional player in order to be an effective, passionate and capable executive or administrator of a soccer association. In fact I would be very wary of anybody who has little more to offer than having been a pro footballer if that is your most important criterion. I would accept your theory only if those executives or administrators of a soccer association grew up in a soccer culture, which would mean that they would fully understand what the sport is all about and how it feels to love it sincerely. We don't have anybody like that among our CSA executives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Bill Spiers Eric ... do you really believe that people on the CSA Executive, the CSA Board or on CSA Committees earn any money? Same with the OSA? Their expenses are covered but other than that, they get nothing. (They must do it because of their passion for the game!). Bill please!!! come on now.....do you really need to be traveling first class, staying at the most expensive hotels, eating at the most expensive restaurants and bring your spouse every time you have a meeting some where in Canada? let's be realistic here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Eric I would accept your theory only if those executives or administrators of a soccer association grew up in a soccer culture, which would mean that they would fully understand what the sport is all about and how it feels to love it sincerely. We don't have anybody like that among our CSA executives. Don't change the subject. First you want them all to have been professional players and when I counter that you change your tune to they must have grown up immersed in a soccer culture. I suggest there are very few natural born Canadians who would fit that criterion and if we had all imports with 'funny' accents running soccer in Canada you would complain there are no real Canadians involved. And as for your last comment about travelling first class, while I might agree sometimes certain CSA folks do appear to go a bit too far, I don't begrudge our soccer leaders some creature comforts when they travel. It takes a lot of their time and they are all volunteers i.e. none are paid for their time. Would you do the job if you were required to travel everywhere by Greyhound, stay in Motel 8, hold meetings in church basements and eat at Harveys? Hyperbole to be sure but I hope you get the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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