Bill Spiers Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Latest draft of this document now posted on the OSA web site for your review and feedback: CSA Pathway to Excellence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 thanks for sharing Bill Interesting read. Too tired to comment tonight...I need to read it a few times (not exactly a riveting document so better to print it and read it when I'm fully awake) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macksam Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I stopped reading when it stated we lack a club structure to develop players like other countries. Last time I checked, we have three professional clubs.[8)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucklefan Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Macksam I stopped reading when it stated we lack a club structure to develop players like other countries. Last time I checked, we have three professional clubs.[8)] It's not enough = we lack a club structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Actually right now it's one, and one nipple ain't gonna feed that many mouths. Most of the top countries in the world have more professional women's teams than we do men's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Vic Actually right now it's one, and one nipple ain't gonna feed that many mouths. Most of the top countries in the world have more professional women's teams than we do men's. Its quality not quantity that counts and far as clubs and clubs structures. There are same examples in the world (some of whom Canada has faced and lost to in the last 10 years in international play) where the national team is made up of players from one or maybe two teams from the domestic circuit. Or, their players deveopment roots trace back to those same one or two clubs. Of course there are going to be exceptions. You can extend phenomena to the mid power national sides and in some exceptions the super power sides. The rest of the clubs serve to allow a domestic competition to exist but in the bigger picture of player development, I would argue that their significance is somewhat less. I have argued here on this forum for many years, that i would rather see one club that well funded, well suported, and well integrated into the youth development than have 10-20 small clubs operating at a smaller scale and selling every slightest prospect of talent too soon. I used this same argument when some asked, why it was better to have MLSE put $10Mill into joining an existing league rather than using that money to start something from scratch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Vic Most of the top countries in the world have more professional women's teams than we do men's. how sad is that....now I'm in a bad mood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macksam Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Free kick Its quality not quantity that counts and far as clubs and clubs structures. There are same examples in the world (some of whom Canada has faced and lost to in the last 10 years in international play) where the national team is made up of players from one or maybe two teams from the domestic circuit. Or, their players deveopment roots trace back to those same one or two clubs. Of course there are going to be exceptions. You can extend phenomena to the mid power national sides and in some exceptions the super power sides. The rest of the clubs serve to allow a domestic competition to exist but in the bigger picture of player development, I would argue that their significance is somewhat less. I have argued here on this forum for many years, that i would rather see one club that well funded, well suported, and well integrated into the youth development than have 10-20 small clubs operating at a smaller scale and selling every slightest prospect of talent too soon. I used this same argument when some asked, why it was better to have MLSE put $10Mill into joining an existing league rather than using that money to start something from scratch. I would agree with that. 9 out of the 11 players in the 1998 Netherlands squad all started out at Ajax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucklefan Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Macksam I would agree with that. 9 out of the 11 players in the 1998 Netherlands squad all started out at Ajax. I think it's unfair to compare de Dutch system and the Canadian system while we don't even have our own league. I'm not sure neither how to put the quantity/quality equation on football clubs. What is the criteria? How good is the club's youth system? How good the first team is? The coach staff? You can have 1 club with all those criterias but you can have 5 or 10 clubs as well with those criterias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 The Ajax youth system bred 7 of 20 in the '98 World Cup team: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_FIFA_World_Cup_squads#Netherlands The more interesting number is 3 born in the same city in Paramaribo, Suriname. There are 18 teams in the Eredivisie, and 20 in the Eerste below it. Holland is half the size of Canada. The translation on Canadian scale is 76 professional teams. All the Dutch players are byproducts of a professional club system. Ajax's wallet just out-rapes and pillages everything around it. But without a breeding ground there is no fruit and the Ajax we know in isolation does not exist. And if the women's teams quote wasn't bad enough, the single club Ajax has as many professional teams in South Africa as we do active pro teams in Canada (and playing in a bigger stadium). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Macksam I would agree with that. 9 out of the 11 players in the 1998 Netherlands squad all started out at Ajax. Holland is actually one that I had in mind. But I was also thinking of Estonia and Costa Rica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 quote:Originally posted by canucklefan I think it's unfair to compare de Dutch system and the Canadian system while we don't even have our own league. I'm not sure neither how to put the quantity/quality equation on football clubs. What is the criteria? How good is the club's youth system? How good the first team is? The coach staff? You can have 1 club with all those criterias but you can have 5 or 10 clubs as well with those criterias. You can look elsewhere for many other examples. Even within the superpowers. Most of the NT players come 1-3 domestic squads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Can you think of any without a domestic league? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Macksam I stopped reading when it stated we lack a club structure to develop players like other countries. Last time I checked, we have three professional clubs.[8)] Those clubs are not structure as professional clubs that develop players for the sole purpose of financial gain and prospects for the first team. The closes one to that is obviously Vancouver and not even them are structure as a regular pro club in most countries, so don't get confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_AM_CANADIAN Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Vic Can you think of any without a domestic league? Mhm... even the likes of Luxembourg, San Marino and Montenegro (which became an independent nation three years ago) all have national leagues. It's quite sad that we don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuscan Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Back to the document for a second here (the self-pitying needs a pause, please), it is interesting to note that in Appendix C (cost of Men's Nats) only Toronto and Montreal are listed as venues for home friendlies. It does say "Qualification Home" beside each listing with TO and MON, but how much of an impact would it have if all qualification games were played only in Toronto and Montreal? Does the CSA have any obligation to playing matches (friendlies or WCQs) out west? To add to this, is Commonwealth generally a money loser or winner? Is there an economical impact to not playing out of Commonwealth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Free kick Its quality not quantity that counts and far as clubs and clubs structures. There are same examples in the world (some of whom Canada has faced and lost to in the last 10 years in international play) where the national team is made up of players from one or maybe two teams from the domestic circuit. Or, their players deveopment roots trace back to those same one or two clubs. Of course there are going to be exceptions. You can extend phenomena to the mid power national sides and in some exceptions the super power sides. The rest of the clubs serve to allow a domestic competition to exist but in the bigger picture of player development, I would argue that their significance is somewhat less. I have argued here on this forum for many years, that i would rather see one club that well funded, well suported, and well integrated into the youth development than have 10-20 small clubs operating at a smaller scale and selling every slightest prospect of talent too soon. I used this same argument when some asked, why it was better to have MLSE put $10Mill into joining an existing league rather than using that money to start something from scratch. Your argument continues to be unconvincing. While it is almost inevitable that most national teams will be comprised from a handful of domestic teams that is, in large measure, because those large teams have purchased players from other clubs in that country. Sure, big clubs do successfully develop some of their own stars however, in many instances players were developed elsewhere. The reality is, that for every sport in the world, the best 21-30 year old athletes were not uniformly amongst the best 13-15 year olds when they were that age. So unless your "one club that well funded, well suported, and well integrated into the youth development" is running an accademy with 500+ of the best players at each age group (which of course they will not be) that option is better only than no professional clubs at all. Just to illustrate, while Ajax had, and continues to have, one of the best youth systems in the world, no more than 5 (and perhaps less) of the 9 players Macksam identifies as "starting out with Ajax" actually did. These being Reiziger, the DeBoer brothers, Seerdorf and Davids. I say perhaps less as in some cases, there was no definitive information saying they had done their youth training at Ajax, but I have given the benefit of the doubt as Ajax is an exceptional system. Along the same lines, taking a look at the 2006 England Squad, 14 of the 23 players came from Big 4 Sides. But of the 23 players in total, only 8 had anything to do with Big 4 academies and 3 of those - Terry, Beckham and Walcott - joined the big clubs at age 14, 16 and 16 respectively. Walcott already had one professional season under his belt, and Beckham spent only a year in the youth system before making his professional debut. So, at best, the Big four provided only 8 of 23 players and arguably played a significant role in the development of no more than 5 or 6 of those 8. Vic is right. Quantity is far more important that quality. Quality is important only in so far as ensuring that the training of players, youth or otherwise is professional and competent. And that is easily achieved. More easily than ensuring the top 1000 players at each age group are getting it. Players better than the league will move on rather quickly. That is the way it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Tuscan Back to the document for a second here (the self-pitying needs a pause, please), it is interesting to note that in Appendix C (cost of Men's Nats) only Toronto and Montreal are listed as venues for home friendlies. It does say "Qualification Home" beside each listing with TO and MON, but how much of an impact would it have if all qualification games were played only in Toronto and Montreal? Does the CSA have any obligation to playing matches (friendlies or WCQs) out west? To add to this, is Commonwealth generally a money loser or winner? Is there an economical impact to not playing out of Commonwealth? I'd be surprised to see a friendly at Commonwealth in the near future. I think that stadium will be used only for WCQ if we need the home field, cold weather in November advantage vs. a warm weather opponent. The stadium is huge, the surface isn't the greatest and its not exactly the most convenient place in the world to get to for players who, by and large, ply their trade in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Bob Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I'd be surprised to see a friendly anywhere in Canada in the near future, but that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 ^ I think there is a decent chance that there will be a friendly (or two) in Canada next summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurt-MTL Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I find this notion that Canada needs its own national league to be a bit strange to be honest. IMO, the sports model in North America simply isn't conducive to Canada having its own top-quality professional league that is viable, competitive, and of a high enough standard to make it worthwile. The American leagues will always dominate the North American sporting landscape due to the money, population, and infrastructure that is in place. Any Canadian player who is half-decent but maybe not quite good enough for Europe will want to play in a league where he can get the most money and play against the best competition; and that's south of the border. That being said, the leagues are no longer American-only leagues. For soccer, TFC is in MLS and the Whitecaps will join them in 2011, with Montreal hopefully only a step behind. With the USL (or perhaps this new TOA league if it gets off the ground) providing a decent second tier league with several Canadian clubs in it or rumoured to be joining soon, what would be the purpose of creating a purely Canadian league to try and compete with those already established leagues? I think the best we could hope for is perhaps an expanded and upgraded CSL (Western expansion, contracts, coaching licences, blah blah blah) as a feeder/development league for the USL/TOA and MLS clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Kurt-MTL I think the best we could hope for is perhaps an expanded and upgraded CSL (Western expansion, contracts, coaching licences, blah blah blah) as a feeder/development league for the USL/TOA and MLS clubs. This is exactly all we need. But that would be a MASSIVE step up from the current situation. MASSSIVE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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