Sevilla v Real Madrid - October 4, 2009

[VPjr]

Those who watched this match last night know that it was a very entertaining (if somewhat one sided) match.

If you haven't seen this match, check out this highlite package. Check out the out of this world save that Iker Casillas made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om6d6m_Yiwg

Sevilla totally bossed RM around the pitch. is this a blip because C Ronaldo was unavailable due to injury or does RM have serious defensive issues?

[amacpher]

They have serious defensive issues. They'll get eliminated from the Champions League against the first English side they meet.

[earlimus]

^^^^ Maybe....maybe not. I sure hope so. In my opinion Madrid represent all that is evil in club soccer. Very anti-sport in fact. A liga or champions league victory for them would only symbolize that you can indeed go out and buy yourself a trophy. But I digress.

While Real's front line and midfield is quite amazing and deep, their backline is lacking in many respects. There saving grace is San Iker (Saint Iker Casillas). He single-handidly dragged them to second place last year and within a very respectable distance to the outstanding Barca team, which they otherwise never could have accomplished.

San Iker and the very few like him (Buffon imo is the only other) can truly save their team points single handidly. VPJr's save was amazing, but one of many in this game alone. Casillas is worth more than Kaka and Ronaldo put together. If Barca had him, they'd be unstoppable.

This is the guy that was applauded off of Anfield and given the player of the match, by keeping their Champions League match against Liverpool last year at a respectable 4-0 loss.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

Nice to go leader before the international break, that way it festers more for them and we get to sit on it and have a good think. The last Barcelona-Almeria was a tough game, we have injuries, and we need the break too.

As far as I am concerned, we need to just hold the line and they will lose points, because they are vulnerable in the middle and back, and in my opinion Iker has serious weaknesses too. He just gets forgiven for them because he makes these great reflex saves all the time. But I would not want him at Barça, he has no control over his defence, his footwork is not good enough for our style of play, he is used to a lot of work while Valdes can stand cold for an hour then pull out incredible saves, as he did in both Champions finals we won. And Iker never accepts responsibility for any errors, but just look at the 2-6 in the Bernabeu last season: Iker could have done more on at least three of those, some were terrible keeping errors.

Of course the hype around him and these incredible displays in a losing cause are perfect for me.

I am not sure Barça can beat Madrid this year as they have more firepower and will usually be able to pull it out even with defensive problems. Barça needs to sign soon, for me next year is going to be key as we need a future replacement for Xavi (Cesc?) and probably another killer striker, a young stud (Luis Suarez?). It will be our memorized control game vs. their punch, going to be close.

[canucklefan]

quote:Originally posted by amacpher

They have serious defensive issues. They'll get eliminated from the Champions League against the first English side they meet.

And they won't win the domestic league neither. That's for sure. Those who think C. Ronaldo will make a difference this year are wrong IMO. When he played in MU, to me, those who made the difference in this team were the defense and as mentioned above, Real Madrid defense is not a good one.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by earlimus

San Iker and the very few like him (Buffon imo is the only other) can truly save their team points single handidly. VPJr's save was amazing, but one of many in this game alone. Casillas is worth more than Kaka and Ronaldo put together. If Barca had him, they'd be unstoppable.

I would also say Shay Given can definitely steal games much like Buffon and Iker.

For me, the standing-ovation at Anfield last season was nothing more than a circle-jerk. If you pepper the net with enough shots then even humpty dumpty will stop a few.

quote:Originally posted by canucklefan

And they won't win the domestic league neither. That's for sure. Those who think C. Ronaldo will make a difference this year are wrong IMO. When he played in MU, to me, those who made the difference in this team were the defense and as mentioned above, Real Madrid defense is not a good one.

Madrid might win the domestic league though because you don't need a great defence to beat teams like Xerez. Yesterday's match was one of only a few on the La Liga fixture-list where a good defense is definitely needed.

Ronaldo scored a hat full of winning goals in the league last season and a couple of late equalizers too. I think its pretty safe to say Ronaldo was vital to Man Utd. The defense couldn't be relied on everytime.

[canucklefan]

But between Real Madrid and Manchester U., I still believe MU has more chances to win the domestic league than RM. I also think RM will confirm my logic in the round of 16 or the quarterfinals of the Champions League. I'm pretty sure MU will do better than RM in Champions League.

[earlimus]

That some's decent and fairly unbias critism of Madrid-Barca Jeffery, although I have to disagree with you and Amacpher 100%. I don't think that it was circle jerking at all for one in Anfield, the guy was blasted and still stood on his head for a number of saves, as he did in Madrid for the 6-2 pounding that Madrid got there, although it definitely wasn't his best game.

Given is no doubt an incredible keeper, and IMO the best in the Premiership along with Reina. I wouldn't rate Casillas as the best in the world at distribution and he certainly could be more vocal and assertive with his defence, but I've never seen anyone make the kind of saves that he does on a weekly basis, aside from Buffon of course. And he should be forgiven for not being too vocal considering that he doesn't bitch about the crap defense that Madrid manages to have year after year.

As for Suarez Jeffery, I couldn't agree more. I don't know how he made it through the summer still on Ajax.

[earlimus]

Oh... and my love on for San Iker aside.... I hope Madrid burn out and finish in fifth, I think the Galacticos II would look great with the Europa League badge on their arm.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by earlimus

That some's decent and fairly unbias critism of Madrid-Barca Jeffery, although I have to disagree with you and Amacpher 100%. I don't think that it was circle jerking at all for one in Anfield, the guy was blasted and still stood on his head for a number of saves, as he did in Madrid for the 6-2 pounding that Madrid got there, although it definitely wasn't his best game.

But doesn't that kinda prove my point? The losing goalie in a blowout is always heralded as the best player for the losing team (sometimes the best of both teams, which always makes me chuckle).

[Guest Jeffery S.]

I did not say hardly a word about Barça all last year and it worked well for us, so I am signing off this one too.

Just to say: you want to see incredible football, watch Barça. Not every game, but almost every, you see things no other team in the world is able to do. Since last November it has been like that, with a few exceptions, a few off games. That is what irked me so much about the whole Man Utd final in Rome, all the praises after from the UK: no one in England in any case had paid any attention at all to the best team in the world for the previous 6 months because they were too stuffed with their own overblown league.

[canucklefan]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

no one in England in any case had paid any attention at all to the best team in the world for the previous 6 months because they were too stuffed with their own overblown league.

Something that is understandable given the fact that top clubs in EPL have some competion from the other clubs. This year in La Liga, Barcelona and RM are so dominant that the league became so boring for me. Right now I know 1st place goes to Barça, 2nd to RM, and I swear, I did check for the 3rd place yesterday but I forgot because it's like a lost cause for the others to approach 1st and 2nd place.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by canucklefan

Something that is understandable given the fact that top clubs in EPL have some competion from the other clubs. This year in La Liga, Barcelona and RM are so dominant that the league became so boring for me. Right now I know 1st place goes to Barça, 2nd to RM, and I swear, I did check for the 3rd place yesterday but I forgot because it's like a lost cause for the others to approach 1st and 2nd place.

The league "became so boring" for you. Because yesterday second was tied with third which was why the third place you just forgot because well, you know.

Or maybe you don't have a frigging clue that Madrid lost yesterday to a team the press is saying has a chance for the title. Let's see if you can guess the name, we'll give you 48 hours to check that table again, it is not going to change.

BTW, since the beginning of the EPL four teams have won it, since 1992-93, with the freak Blackburn year in there. In the same period in Spain there have been 5 winners. And the one Depor win was no freak, they have come second 4 times.

[jpg75]

Watching the Spanish league on Saturday afternoon after watching the EPL in the morning is like a refreshing breeze sweeping through on a hot, muggy day.

[canucklefan]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

he league "became so boring" for you. Because yesterday second was tied with third which was why the third place you just forgot because well, you know.

Or maybe you don't have a frigging clue that Madrid lost yesterday to a team the press is saying has a chance for the title. Let's see if you can guess the name, we'll give you 48 hours to check that table again, it is not going to change.

BTW, since the beginning of the EPL four teams have won it, since 1992-93, with the freak Blackburn year in there. In the same period in Spain there have been 5 winners. And the one Depor win was no freak, they have come second 4 times.

I don't why you can't never stick to arguments and need to attack the others personaly instead. It happens everytime someone thinks different than you. What a jerk. I thought you became "sane" after some moderation from the mods in the past but I was wrong. I guess I will just avoid disccussing with you(again).

[earlimus]

Name calling aside, canucklefan has a point Jeffery. He was only making a point that most years La Liga lacks some of the competition in the top end than the Premiership does. I think it's only because there's a top 2 instead of a top 4-5, but in any case, any year that Barca and Madrid are both looking good, even a powerfull Atletico, Villarreal, Valencia, etc... can't keep up. It's a fact Jeffery and you know it. The big boys need to drop the ball while one of the others have an amazing year and it's a tough coincidence to achieve. This year for example, as good as Sevilla are and will play, there's very little chance for them to keep up with the bullies. There's just too much of a quality gap.

By the same token, by there only being two bullies in Spain, it does allow for other teams to occasionally slip in on a strong year and truly compete. In the modern Premiership, that's impossible. With 5 bullies now, there is practically zero chance for a team like Everton, Villa, or anyone else to win the league. Shy of having millions/billions of takeover money being injected into a club, it's all but a physical impossibility.

Anyways, that doesn't detract from the fact that Jeffery was bang on in his assesment of British criticism and their view of La Liga. Barca were deserving of the world's praise long before the Champions final. One of my big problems with soccer, you can be hands down the best team all year but had Barca lost that match, Man U would have been regarded as the best team in the world by many. Absolute bollocks that is mate. Pure rubbish.

On a side note, I just read a little article on a spanish channel catching Guti (the goat/la cabra) and San Iker having it out during the Sevilla match. Casillas is yelling at him for standing in the middle of nowhere during a corner and Guti cries like the tranny loving goat he his and tells him to "shut his mouth". Classic. I attended Madrid's last home match with a friend from TO (who was there to see our friendly with them btw.) and I called Guti la cabra (the Goat) all game. No one gave me crap for it but probably only because it's only my name for him. He does look like a goat though doesn't he????

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by canucklefan

I don't why you can't never stick to arguments and need to attack the others personaly instead. It happens everytime someone thinks different than you. What a jerk. I thought you became "sane" after some moderation from the mods in the past but I was wrong. I guess I will just avoid disccussing with you(again).

In other words: let me post incoherent things on a public forum and let me cry to the mods if what I said was pretty thoughtless and someone was rude enough to point it out.

Your post suggested you had no idea what you were talking about, that you did not know what the current table was in the Liga, and that you had not in fact even read the thread title or any other posts. That seems pretty damn arrogant and disrespectful to me.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

earlimus, it is not true (or not as absolutely clear as many are making out). Look at the simple stat I posted and you can see that since the beginning of the EPL, as a point of reference, more teams have won the league in Spain than in England.

There is no statistical evidence to prove EPL is any more competitive at the top than the Liga for this reason. Sure, Barça or Madrid have been the top two 7 times since then, but Manchester United and Arsenal have done the same 5 times. Since the beginning of the EPL 7 teams have been in the top two (the big four plus Blackburn, Newcastle and Villa). In Spain in the same period 8 teams have been either winners or runners up.

We could also look at how close leagues were in these years, and you will find that there are less runaway league titles in Spain than in England.

That is the top, but of course a lot of fans are happy to see their team qualify for UEFA, or make Champions (I too would love to see another team other than the big four visit Barcelona, but it has not happened, I would love to see a Spurs or Aston Villa come visit for Champions, or Man City). And there too you will see a greater variety of Spanish teams competiting at a high level in the later rounds, including Depor, Villareal, where teams of that level from EPL have not made final rounds of Champions in recent memory.

The spread between making UEFA and relegating in Spain is consistently narrower, meaning the middle of the table is harder fought, almost every year. The difference between making Europe and falling backwards is smaller in Spain than in England.

You will also find that it is more frequent for top teams in Spain to drop points to weak teams. Barça lost to Numancia last year, we dropped points to Betis, both teams relegated. Madrid lost in Almeria last year. The reason is because Spain is competitive and not predictable, and the argument cannot be made to contend that the EPL is more competitive and thus, as a consequence, more entertaining to watch.

Yes, Madrid and Barcelona dominate. But that domination is not as strong as people try to make out when arguing EPL is somehow more interesting to watch because you don't know who is going to win.

Finally, re Guti: the player we hate the most in the league, he has talent, but is probably the most unsportsmanlike player in La Liga right now. My 10 year old son, whenever he has to make a comparison, uses "worse than Guti" as the harshest possible insult.

[canucklefan]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Your post suggested you had no idea what you were talking about

Thanks you earlimus, for posting something long enough for Mr. "blind" Jeffrey who really had no idea what was talking about. Maybe he'll understand a bit now, maybe. And one last thing Mr. Jeffrey, accept the fact that others don't share the same sentiments than you. I prefer EPL over La Liga and I was just stating why. God, I believe I'm trying to explain this to a 10-year kid...

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by canucklefan

Thanks you earlimus, for posting something long enough for Mr. "blind" Jeffrey who really had no idea what was talking about. Maybe he'll understand a bit now, maybe. And one last thing Mr. Jeffrey, accept the fact that others don't share the same sentiments than you. I prefer EPL over La Liga and I was just stating why. God, I believe I'm trying to explain this to a 10-year kid...

This is what you wrote on MOnday: "This year in La Liga, Barcelona and RM are so dominant that the league became so boring for me. Right now I know 1st place goes to Barça, 2nd to RM, and I swear, I did check for the 3rd place yesterday but I forgot because it's like a lost cause for the others to approach 1st and 2nd place."

Well on Sunday Sevilla beat Madrid and are tied with them for 2nd. That is what the thread is about, about Madrid losing and it not being necessarily a two-horse race. All the press says the same thing, which you'd know if you really "did check". But you didn't. You were trying to bullshiit, be honest. You "swear", but in fact you were lying under oath.

The same as you didn't "forget" who was in third, because the thread title pretty well told you. Sevilla is technically third but tied with Madrid. If you had really checked, you would not have forgotten, unless you have a short term memory problem. You simply were talking bull about something you did not give a damn about.

If someone could not bother to read the other posts, blantantly refuses to tell the truth and has to lie to make his point on a public board, as you have clearly done, he deserves to be treated as a contemptuous little troll. And all the most so if the point he is making is that he likes his little fluffy and thrilling EPL better no matter what.

[canucklefan]

At least, you moderated yourself a little bit better, but stil....

[amacpher]

Since 1992 La Liga has definitely been more balanced than the EPL. However, as I prefer La Liga style over any other league's I must say I'm concerned that this will no longer be the case this season and for the near future. And although its still early, so far the results are justifying my worries. <11 wins, 0 draws, 1 loss, 34 goals, 7 goals against> combined for Madrid and Barca. Worse than any other top league by some margin. And that's despite Madrid having already played arguably the 2 most difficult fixtures of the entire La Liga schedule outside of los dos clasicos.

That said, we haven't even had one complete season in recent memory where both Barca and Madrid dominated La Liga ala Celtic & Rangers in Scotland.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

Today everyone in Spain is talking about how good it would be for there to be rivals for Barça and Madrid. Basically to justify the RM loss on Sunday. Also because all the internationals have gone to Madrid and the press asks them about the league, because no one is worried about playing Armenia at home.

Today the Spanish federation took a picture of almost all former national team players they could find, a couple hundred, and they all got interviewed too. And they all said the same thing. As if somehow, since Madrid spent so much, it would be good for them not to run away with it, since that would mean that money can't buy you success. Perverse thinking

As for EPL. You look at some of those squads and you think: with their money how could they be playing those players. That proves money is not everything, because considering the money in EPL, with even Newcastle amongst the top 20 richest clubs in the world until relegating, the level should really be much higher.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

Today everyone in Spain is talking about how good it would be for there to be rivals for Barça and Madrid. Basically to justify the RM loss on Sunday. Also because all the internationals have gone to Madrid and the press asks them about the league, because no one is worried about playing Armenia at home.

Today the Spanish federation took a picture of almost all former national team players they could find, a couple hundred, and they all got interviewed too. And they all said the same thing. As if somehow, since Madrid spent so much, it would be good for them not to run away with it, since that would mean that money can't buy you success. Perverse thinking

As for EPL. You look at some of those squads and you think: with their money how could they be playing those players. That proves money is not everything, because considering the money in EPL, with even Newcastle amongst the top 20 richest clubs in the world until relegating, the level should really be much higher.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

As for EPL. You look at some of those squads and you think: with their money how could they be playing those players. That proves money is not everything, because considering the money in EPL, with even Newcastle amongst the top 20 richest clubs in the world until relegating, the level should really be much higher.

I disagree. I think money is everything. EPL has dominated the Champions League over the past 5 years or so which totally coincides with increased resources. They also always send the same 4 teams to the CL each season which coincides perfectly with the 4 richest English clubs.

Man City spent loads of money and they're not a top contender for the championship quite yet. But I think that's because it takes time to convert money into success. (it took Chelsea a couple of years too and Man City didn't have as much talent on their squad to begin with). Still, their squad is pretty damb solid already. Just wait another year or two.

Some EPL squads are mediocre but that's because a) they're small clubs (again, down to money) or they've been pilaged by Man City (so again, its money).