Ben's re-writing History again

[Free kick]

Though it is not an example from international soccer. I did note a case from the Ontario roster of the Canada games. One of the goals scorers for Ontario today is a player from the TFC academy who lists in his bio that he has previously played for Quebec at nationals.

I am sure that none of us would consider in the slightest to hold that against the kid. So its that kind of reasoning, that I apply to the case of Jono and Hargreaves. Jono livede in Holland for many of his formative years, but Hargreaves did not live in England.

More reasons than ever to ensure that kids are developed here in Canada rather than abroad

[Joe MacCarthy]

quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy

I am not the CSA's biggest fan. But the idea that we lost OH because we cut him when he was an undersized, underage and timid sub-17 player is misguided.

OH didn't make that team because he wasn't good enough. It was a convenient excuse later.

We lost OH because he took the easy way out and then made things worse on himself by never manning up and admitting it. If he had said "Look, I appreciate Canada, but the CSA is a mess and this is an amazing opportunity that could advance my career. How could I say no," then we still wouldn't have liked it, but we might have respected it a bit more.

My God! The truth, what a novel approach.

And now back to our regularly scheduled posts of revisionism (is that a word?)...

[Marc]

quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy

I am not the CSA's biggest fan. But the idea that we lost OH because we cut him when he was an undersized, underage and timid sub-17 player is misguided.

OH didn't make that team because he wasn't good enough. It was a convenient excuse later.

We lost OH because he took the easy way out and then made things worse on himself by never manning up and admitting it. If he had said "Look, I appreciate Canada, but the CSA is a mess and this is an amazing opportunity that could advance my career. How could I say no," then we still wouldn't have liked it, but we might have respected it a bit more.

And he still would have done some good for the sport here.

Exactly!

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

I would have had a much easier time accepting Hargreaves's decision had he decided to play for Germany. As I said many times. And thats why I have had an easier time accepting Jonathan Deguzman's decision.

It was in Germany that he developed as a soccer player and it was where he lived for several years before became a professional. He owes more to Germany for his career as than he does to England. His only link to England is through his parents but so what if you have never lived there. Tons of Canadians have parents or grandparents who come from elsewhere but if you have never actually lived there then how can you call identify yourself as person from that country. He identified himself as Welsh for while as well, but why didn't he play fr Wales then?

Agreed.

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by Robert

Ted, if historical accuracy is so important to you, I could have a lot of fun with the following:

No you could not since what I wrote was 100% accurate and in no way insults, belittles or misrepresents other people's opinions.

What Ben wrote was not accurate and I hope that he will refrain from picking at that particular scab as, from the comments above, it is clearly a divisive and pointless debate.

[Guest Ed]

quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy

I am not the CSA's biggest fan. But the idea that we lost OH because we cut him when he was an undersized, underage and timid sub-17 player is misguided.

OH didn't make that team because he wasn't good enough. It was a convenient excuse later.

We lost OH because he took the easy way out and then made things worse on himself by never manning up and admitting it. If he had said "Look, I appreciate Canada, but the CSA is a mess and this is an amazing opportunity that could advance my career. How could I say no," then we still wouldn't have liked it, but we might have respected it a bit more.

And he still would have done some good for the sport here.

That is wrong. One of the best players at camp but considered TOO SMALL by the British nitwit in charge.

[loyola]

The irony is that a British guy is responsible for him abandoning Canada and choosing England....

[Massive Attack]

quote:Originally posted by loyola

The irony is that a British guy is responsible for him abandoning Canada and choosing England....

That's not true though, the "I Chose England Story Because I Was Cut from an U-17 Team" is simply obfuscation from Whoregreaves and his worshipers as an excuse for why he truly played for England.

The fact of the matter is that he jumped ship because he's an opportunistic douchebag with no integrity or class. The U-17 story is just a convenient crutch for Whoregreaves and his loser apologists.

[Massive Attack]

quote:Originally posted by squizz

Forgive the nitpicking, but I'm curious as to how you differentiate between a column, and a written article containing the author's perspective.

I consider a columnist a professional at their job. Not some amateur blogger that doesn't care if facts get in the way of his/her opinion.

That being said, journalism has gone so far downhill in recent years that its hard to tell the difference anymore. Its seems like truth and facts are no longer necessary anymore. This is true for blogs and even pros.

[Marc]

Yeah, agreed, I've never ever gotten into the whole blogs for that same reason. Unfortunately, columns are following suit.

[Duane Rollins1555362254]

The industry is dying. The truth in blogging is in the numbers you can generate. Some will like Ben, others won't. If he can generate a following that is big enough to support himself he is every bit as professional as someone who had the fortune to graduate j-school at a different time and therefore has a column.

ANYWAY...

My rebuttal:

http://www.24thminute.com/2009/08/really-its-ok-to-hate-hargreaves.html

[Massive Attack]

quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy

The industry is dying. The truth in blogging is in the numbers you can generate. Some will like Ben, others won't. If he can generate a following that is big enough to support himself he is every bit as professional as someone who had the fortune to graduate j-school at a different time and therefore has a column.

ANYWAY...

My rebuttal:

http://www.24thminute.com/2009/08/really-its-ok-to-hate-hargreaves.html

I don't want to come across as a Ben-hater, because I like his work and his writing style. But often times his opinions are bizarro, imo.

Nice rebut, by the way.

[Regs]

Hogwash.

If he had a big enough following to support himself, that would make him successful blogger, not a professional "journalist". The industry is dying because of thought processes like that exhibited above (above MA's post).

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

That's not true though, the "I Chose England Story Because I Was Cut from an U-17 Team" is simply obfuscation from Whoregreaves and his worshipers as an excuse for why he truly played for England.

The fact of the matter is that he jumped ship because he's an opportunistic douchebag with no integrity or class. The U-17 story is just a convenient crutch for Whoregreaves and his loser apologists.

Don't get me wrong, I have no time for the "he was cut from our U-17 program" excuse. I just thought Ed post was ironic because he was blaming a Brit when OH decided to join on e of the Brit team.

[Toronto MB]

The day Ben Knight, or anybody for that matter, makes a living off of blogging or featuring in online tv/radio about Canadian Soccer - I will attend a Canada match in a WHOREgreaves jersey and sit quietly in the corner.

Simply won't happen.

The funny thing about the Whore is that Wales feels even more hard-done-by than we do. He was training and made match appearances with the Wales U-21 at a time when Giggs, Hartson, Bellamy and co actually composed a Welsh team of value.

He was then called-up out of the blue by England U-21 manager Howard Wilkinson before the gaffer had ever seen Whoregreaves play! He of course jumped at the chance and snubbed Mark Hughes and Wales only days before a UEFA U-21 Qualifier.

[Guest Ed]

Whatever. It is what it is. Taylor was/is a moron. Look at the players who made that team vs those that were cut (Hargeaves, de Guzman, Klukowski - arguably the best 3 players of the 80/81 generation). I believe the ONLY player off that U17 team that makes a living player soccer today is Patrice Bernier. And he is not of the calibre of the 3 players above. You continually haul out the " well a lot of players have been cut at 16" argument, but don't you see how monumentally bad his decisions were.

Of course, there is much more to the Hargreaves story than is out in the public domain. When the parties involved are FAR removed from today's Cdn soccer decisions, some stories are waiting to be told.

Also, to mediaguy, you state that only on this side of the pond would people claim that Hargreaves was England's best player in 2006. Again, check the facts. He was voted that by the English supporters.

[Toronto MB]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

Whatever. It is what it is. Taylor was/is a moron. Look at the players who made that team vs those that were cut (Hargeaves, de Guzman, Klukowski - arguably the best 3 players of the 80/81 generation). I believe the ONLY player off that U17 team that makes a living player soccer today is Patrice Bernier. And he is not of the calibre of the 3 players above. You continually haul out the " well a lot of players have been cut at 16" argument, but don't you see how monumentally bad his decisions were.

Of course, there is much more to the Hargreaves story than is out in the public domain. When the parties involved are FAR removed from today's Cdn soccer decisions, some stories are waiting to be told.

Also, to mediaguy, you state that only on this side of the pond would people claim that Hargreaves was England's best player in 2006. Again, check the facts. He was voted that by the English supporters.

Agreed on the final point, Ed.

From my experience England supporters rank Hargreaves' quality very highly and have been lamenting his injury problems. He is a player who's work-ethic, ball-winning abilities and defensive savvy compliments the attacking styles of Gerrard and Lampard very well.

He was also voted Man of the Match in the 2006 World Cup Quarter-Final loss v. Portugal.

So this is certainly not solely a Canadian perspective.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

I consider a columnist a professional at their job. Not some amateur blogger that doesn't care if facts get in the way of his/her opinion.

That being said, journalism has gone so far downhill in recent years that its hard to tell the difference anymore. Its seems like truth and facts are no longer necessary anymore. This is true for blogs and even pros.

I agree. The advantage of reading pieces from a distribution outlet like a newspaper, for example, is that there is a name (of an organization) of a newspaper attached to it. That means that it has a reputation and standard to uphold. So one cant write garbage that adversely exposes the organization to lawsuits and bad image. There is also a greater requirement to do research and your facts are under greater scrutiny. Whereas blogs seldom contain new and innovative research. Its just someones opinion regardless of how, as you say, "bizarro" that opinion is.

Also important, there is no expection or need to present a balanced view in blogs. I know that, over the years, this has even erroded in the mainstream old media.

[Duane Rollins1555362254]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

Also, to mediaguy, you state that only on this side of the pond would people claim that Hargreaves was England's best player in 2006. Again, check the facts. He was voted that by the English supporters.

...mostly because they were upset at the play of the rest. It was the British equivalent of Bob Rae winning Ontario in 1990 -- A protest vote gone wrong.

Hargreaves had his best game in the tournament last. He scored on his PK. Little was expected of him by English supporters going in, so they were pleasantly surprised that he did something worthwhile.

Was he England's best player in 2006? No, more like least disappointing.

Regardless, the point is that he has limited respect and little profile in England. Certainly no one is clamouring for him to recover from his injury to play in South Africa.

[Vic]

Ed, appreciated. Thanks.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

Whatever. It is what it is. Taylor was/is a moron. Look at the players who made that team vs those that were cut (Hargeaves, de Guzman, Klukowski - arguably the best 3 players of the 80/81 generation). I believe the ONLY player off that U17 team that makes a living player soccer today is Patrice Bernier. And he is not of the calibre of the 3 players above. You continually haul out the " well a lot of players have been cut at 16" argument, but don't you see how monumentally bad his decisions were.

I've always said that it's tough to judge those decisions (cutting those players) because of the physical change that happens at that age (15-16). The physical difference between a 15 yrs old and a 16 yrs old can be a valid explanation not to select a player IMO.

Maybe it was incompetence from the coach, maybe it was OH who didn't have his best showing during training camp, maybe it was a decision base on the players that were available at THAT time (maybe the players that were selected ahead of him were really better than him at THAT time)?

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by loyola

I've always said that it's tough to judge those decisions (cutting those players) because of the physical change that happens at that age (15-16). The physical difference between a 15 yrs old and a 16 yrs old can be a valid explanation not to select a player IMO.

Maybe it was incompetence from the coach, maybe it was OH who didn't have his best showing during training camp, maybe it was a decision base on the players that were available at THAT time (maybe the players that were selected ahead of him were really better than him at THAT time)?

And, I would add: that if U17 teams were any kind of unfallable barometer of future talent, then you would see todays senior teams that look pretty much like past U17 teams. So anyone who makes such claims should go over to the Fifas page and look at the composition of teams that played at at U17 Wc from 10-15 years ago. See how many players that they recognize today.

[Vic]

^ Case in point - Women's 2000 U-17 and U-19 teams.

Of 33 players, I believe about ten were capped senior and only a half-dozen put in lengthy senior careers.

CANADIAN WOMEN'S UNDER-19 PLAYERS (NORTH CAROLINA CAMP)

Leisha Alica GK Mississauga, ON March 25, 1982

Karin Osberg GK West Vancouver, BC November 20, 1982

Rochelle Willis D Unionville, ON March 19, 1982

Allison Kelly D Kitchener, ON April 1, 1982

Katie Hodge D Rock Forest, QC April 6, 1981

Catherine Duchecne D/M Beauport, QC February 9, 1981

Dara Wone M Burnaby, BC February 22, 1982

Leah Robinson M Sackville, NS May 29, 1982

Anne-Marie Lapalme M Granby, QC September 28, 1981

Marie-Eve Nault M Trois-Rivieres,QC February 16, 1982

Marie-Claude Henry M St-Hyacinthe, QC December 6, 1981

Sarrah Pinelli M Port Colbourne,ON December 5, 1982

Ashley Lawson M Burlington, ON August 31, 1982

Rhian Wilkinson M/F Baie D'Urfe, QC December 5, 1981

Sarah Barradas F Scarborough, ON January 10, 1982

Kelly Haxton F Univ. of Nebraska September 5, 1982

CANADIAN WOMEN'S UNDER-17 PLAYERS (NEBRASKA CAMP)

Erin McLeod GK Calgary, AB February 26, 1983

Christina Kahlina D Sherwood Park, AB March 29, 1983

Sasha Andrews D Edmonton, AB February 14, 1983

Niki Wojtowitz M Lethbridge, AB June 28, 1983

Erin MacCallum F Calgary, AB August 26, 1983

Amy Vermeulen M/F Saskatoon, SK November 25, 1983

Candace Chapman M Ajax, ON April 2, 1983

Janice McGann D Oakville, ON April 18, 1983

Jayme-Lee Biamonte M St. Catharines,ON December 5, 1983

Brenna Dixon F Mississauga, ON May 4, 1983

Lise Backman M Beaconsfield, QC January 21, 1983

Francine Brousseau M Quebec City, QC May 26, 1983

Marie-Pier Bilodeau GK Beauport, QC March 15, 1983

Jennifer Parsons F Portugal Cove,NF September 16, 1983

Carmelina Moscato F Mississauga, ON May 2, 1984

Katie Weatherson M Thunder Bay, ON April 6, 1984

Melanie Booth M Burlington, ON August 24, 2000

[loyola]

Look at the names in France 2001 U-17 WC champions roster. I think only one player has been cap by France MNT and he has only 1 cap.

[Joe MacCarthy]

quote:Originally posted by Vic

Katie Weatherston M Thunder Bay, ON April 6, 1984

She's on the national hockey team for pete's sake.

[SthMelbRed]

My football club here in Australia is largely made up of British ex-pats. These are the sort who follow football quite closely and tend to be more knowledgeable than most about the game. When the England squad for the 2006 World Cup was announced, I became engaged in a pretty heated discussion with a group of them who were adamant that OH was one of the worst players to ever be capped by England. Obviously, my position that he was not was ultimately vindicated by his performance in that tournament, particularly after Rooney's red card against Portugal. Keep in mind that this was a year before he became elevated to 'best holding midfielder in the universe' by an army of plastic, Manc twats.

As for my position on OH, this is perhaps one of the only times I've agreed with MediaGuy. If he'd done it respectfully and continued to treat his native country with the respect it deserved, there would be far less hate for him by Canadians. But then again, he's "always been British" as we can all see from his fake Manc accent.