Vic Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 In Women's U15 two weeks ago Germany beat England 5-0 and Scotland 6-1. England: http://www.thefa.com/England/WomensUnder15s.aspx Germany: http://tinyurl.com/qlo4qu USA: http://www.ussoccer.com/Teams/Youth/US-Under15-Girls/About-the-Team.aspx Is funding a national women's U15 program a requirement for success at the international level? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gringo Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 In this Country kids still belong to the Provinces until they hit the U17 NTC Program. Perhaps Canada one day will jump at this , but the difficulty comes with the U16 National year of the Provincial Program. After U14 Nartionals would you train with the apparent U15 NTC then go back to the U16 Provincial Program and then return to the NTC Program at U17? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted August 16, 2009 Author Share Posted August 16, 2009 I don't know but I will guess that in the States you go back to your local ODP program when you're not in a national camp. And in Britain and Germany you would go back to your club or Center of Excellence. I think all these programs are over and above the regular elite programs. I'm curious because it appears the U15 national team trend is spreading and I'm wondering what effect it will have on all kinds of development (mental, tactical, skill, etc) when they become U17s/U20s/etc. Will they be more confident? Will it mean nothing? Are they too young for the investment, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanDouglas Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but it's definitely diminishing returns. The younger you go, the harder it becomes to identify the players that will eventually "make it", so you end up spending resources on players most of whom will burn out, drop out, or just won't develop like you think. Then when those players get to U-17, maybe they end up getting favoured by CSA coaches because they're already in the system, while more deserving late bloomers get overlooked. Personally, I think the money would be better spent on improving the U-17 program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted August 16, 2009 Author Share Posted August 16, 2009 Thanks Alan, that was my original thinking but I am curious about the returns on mental development (confidence, commitment, etc) of running a national program two years younger. Will the loss/turnover of players because of their young age be offset by farther advancing the other half who will remain and probably be the core of the program at U17? We have regional programs at U13 and Provincial programs at U14. Is national at U15 not an evolution or extension of that? And/or should those programs be age-delayed as well? From a scientific point of view it will be pretty hard to determine cause and effect watching how Germany and the USA's U15's perform over time... watching how the current U15 nationals of countries like England and Scotland will probably be a little more enlightening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gringo Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 I'm an advocate of early identification. I would support a U15 NTC program for this very reason. In a group of 25 potential candidates the first say, 8 are usually easy picks. Look at it this way. Early Identification; It is already happening. At the recent U14 Girls Nationals in Laval the CSA has indeed scouted and identified the best kids in the tournament. Most were already on the radar but this event was the forum for that formality. What I would like to see at this point is quite simple. Take this group and train under the CSA umbrella for the U15 NTC and play a CONCACAAF tournament. Funding in place of course. The U15 Provincial Programs would still be in place and work harmoniously with the U15NTC program. At U16 kids are back with their Provinces and training for their U16 Nations which is the vehicle for the current U17NTC Program. The disconnect os from U17 to U20 but that is a discussion for another forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyr Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 I agree with Gringo about early identification and the need to start developing mental toughness and international experience as early as possible... however, I also agree with Alan that it is pretty much impossible (in Canada) to predict who will emerge as a National Team player at the age of 14. There are just too many variables in a young person's life. It's interesting that Vic picked up on this England vs. Germany match as these two countries have taken polar opposite views on this issue. The English have set up 52 official Centres of Excellence run by professional clubs and/or County Associations. You cannot be selected to play for England at U15 or U17 level unless you are at one of these COEs. Regional Scouting Camps are held around the country throughout the season and many, many players are identified and tested at National Team camps (about 3 or 4 every year which usually also included matches against international opposition). So in theory their player pool is about 1000 kids at each of the age group (U14/U16) feeding National Team programs (U15/U17). While the number of players the National Team staff actually see are much less than 1000, technically all of these players are getting instruction from minimum UEFA B License coaches and at most centres they have extra help from Sport Scientists (ie - physio, sport psychologist, fitness expert etc). So they experience a high level of competition and get at least an introduction to the way of life of an international athlete. In Germany, As I understand it, they identify their top 18 or so players for each year at a much earlier stage and work them together as a team as much as possible. So by U15 the German players will have already mastered everything involved with the German FA system of play while the English will only just be introducing their 4-3-3 system. Unlike in England, one or two bad performances won't necessarily mean they will lose their place... so perhaps the pressure isn't the same either. The German girls are also FAR more physically fit than the England players at every age group as they are under the watchful eyes of National Team staff pretty much year round. However, as the Euro U19s have shown, England have started to get results from their system... and despite Germany's early exit at the same tournament their system also seems to still be consistently producing excellent teams. England pretty much use U15 as a testing ground to get to know their talent... and Germany have probably done this weeding at a much younger age group. This pretty much explains the 7-0 drubbing that the German U15s gave England. I would wager that the next U15 England camp will comprise of almost an entirely different group of players and the next German camp would be almost identical. It is also very likely that in four years time the gap between these two teams will have closed considerably. While the German system might be better overall out of the two I would have to say that given the realities of Canadian soccer, the English system suits us better. Of course, that would mean an upgrading of our Coaching qualifications to UEFA standards and the expansion of the current Provincial All Star programme to perhaps include Super Y clubs / SAAC member organizations and the splitting of Provincial teams into smaller regional sides to reflect the larger player pools in larger provinces... and of course, big $$$. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted August 17, 2009 Author Share Posted August 17, 2009 Thanks very much for all that great info. The German stuff sounds really interesting and makes you think and wonder just how much average turnover there would be from a national U13 program to U17. Half? A quarter? Two-thirds? All? None? I'm not sure how different we are than the UK right now. Super Y programs do feed into regional andd Provincial sides, don't know about SAAC but it would be a much smaller number. I believe we feed all kids at u13 into regional programs which are our version of the centers of excellence. From there they select the top players who either train solely at the regional center until U16 or if they are selected for provincial programs they train there on top as well until u16 and then same for NTC at u17. Also don't know about across the country but in Ontario the regional coaching pool is actually very good (see below) and provincially the players get some sport psych, phsyio, etc specialists. There is always room to upgrade and improve everywhere but I believe the approach is somewhat similar. Ontario Regional Coaches - CSA National "A" License - Canadian National "B" License, USSF National "A" License, Brazilian National "A" License and Mexican National "A" License - CSA National "B" License, USSF National "A" License and USSF National Youth License - Canadian "A" and UEFA "A" Licence - UEFA "A" Licence, PhD in Physical Science There are another two up North but their certificates aren't listed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soccer9 Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 I favor an early start for sure. It can be as simple as having one camp per year including an international freindly vs the USA. As was said already, the players are identified already after the U14 All stars. A few years back we had a U15 team go to Germany for a training camp. Also serves as additional motivation/reward for the serious players, future stars, to stay focused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted August 17, 2009 Author Share Posted August 17, 2009 Two interesting tidbits: Canada/Germany U15 info: http://www.canadasoccer.com/news/viewArtical.asp?Press_ID=1801 UK Center of Excellence Director posting: http://www.thefa.com/GetIntoFootball/CountyFA/NewsAndFeatures/2009/GirlsCofECumbria.aspx * salary: about $15,000 which includes travel and other expenses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gringo Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Anyone involved in an age group knows rather quickly who the Gamers are. By U14 the status quo knows the best core of kids in the Province. In my case Ontario. By the time the U14 Nationals are done the best kids in the country at that time are known to the CSA Scouting staff. Although late bloomers can come our way and some early starters can fizzle, these are few in between when we are discussing the very Elite in the country at this age. A U15 NTC Program following the U14 Nationals would be a huge boost in development of this first core group. Leaving doors and windows open of course for those yet to come. As it is U15 is a disconnected year as there is no prize, just hard training. Nothing wrong with that except that athletes and especialy young athletes need something to train for and to. U15 alas is already set to become that NTC starter year. Lets get some funding and go forward. Now having said I know that the U17 NTC program has funding issues so the best of luck on that. Even if you simply get a group of say 25 kids that impressed the NTC Scoutes at Nationals and invite for one week to train together. Here you have 25 of the best kids from various provinces training together. A perfect feeler for all to a good introduction at the National level. Currently: U11-U12 District Training U12-U13 Regional training U13-U14 provincial Training U14 Provincial - National U15 Provincial U16 Provincial - National U17 NTC U15 is the laxed year and the perfect time for a U15 NTC Program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 Yes it looks like a natural fit. Hopefully with a new regime in place on the women's side they are able to continue on Pellerud's alchemy at proaction and finding funding to have one in place this time next year. We're not going to improve in a world going forward by standing still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyr Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Vic Two interesting tidbits: Canada/Germany U15 info: http://www.canadasoccer.com/news/viewArtical.asp?Press_ID=1801 UK Center of Excellence Director posting: http://www.thefa.com/GetIntoFootball/CountyFA/NewsAndFeatures/2009/GirlsCofECumbria.aspx * salary: about $15,000 which includes travel and other expenses. Keep in mind that the COE Director is more or less a part-time administrative position that someone would take on in addition to a fulltime position - sometimes within the same club. For (an admitably extreme) example, the Director for the COE where I coach has three jobs - she is also the Coach Education Officer for the Community Scheme (fulltime) and she is a staff coach (part-time) for the England Women's side (she was the U15 Manager last year, was just at U19 Euros and has just left again with Hope Powell for the Women's Euros). More than likely, whomever takes on the Cumbrian COE Director role will already have a fulltime position within the game (especially if they have an A License) either at a pro club or within the Cumbrian FA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyr Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 quote:Originally posted by gringo Anyone involved in an age group knows rather quickly who the Gamers are. By U14 the status quo knows the best core of kids in the Province. In my case Ontario. By the time the U14 Nationals are done the best kids in the country at that time are known to the CSA Scouting staff. Although late bloomers can come our way and some early starters can fizzle, these are few in between when we are discussing the very Elite in the country at this age. A U15 NTC Program following the U14 Nationals would be a huge boost in development of this first core group. Leaving doors and windows open of course for those yet to come. As it is U15 is a disconnected year as there is no prize, just hard training. Nothing wrong with that except that athletes and especialy young athletes need something to train for and to. U15 alas is already set to become that NTC starter year. Lets get some funding and go forward. Now having said I know that the U17 NTC program has funding issues so the best of luck on that. Even if you simply get a group of say 25 kids that impressed the NTC Scoutes at Nationals and invite for one week to train together. Here you have 25 of the best kids from various provinces training together. A perfect feeler for all to a good introduction at the National level. Currently: U11-U12 District Training U12-U13 Regional training U13-U14 provincial Training U14 Provincial - National U15 Provincial U16 Provincial - National U17 NTC U15 is the laxed year and the perfect time for a U15 NTC Program. If I understand it correctly... (big 'if') aren't these district/regional programs part-time setups with the community youth clubs still being the main focus for the player? In that way they really end up just being a series of 'trials' for selection to the next level as opposed to being effective development opportunities. I've witnessed this with the Atlantic NTC program (although this was 2003/2004 so it has hopefully improved). They would meet up one weekend a month at best and expect those players to retain the information for the next session a month later. The players would then go back to their clubs with no serious opportunity to practice what they learned. If a player performed 'poorly' for two NTC sessions, they would be dropped from the programme. So it just became a series of continuous tryouts. Even if their community clubs are providing excellent coaching the players are still missing out from not competing with and against the best players from their region each week. There really is no replacement for that. So there will be players with fantastic potential who don't get to develop that talent through the experience of year-round "provincial team" level training and matches. If this is the case, there is a high risk that you will not necessarily be picking your 'best' players at the beginning of the process in the first place and that many potentially better players will be lost to the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soccer9 Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Speaking of U17 funding issues, anyone know when the first camp is? Was suppose to be end of summer but no news yet. CONCACAF qualifying is in March 2010!! Not much time left Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gringo Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 In Ontario the Districts operate that particular program. At U11-U12 Training is once every two weeks. That's it. A Regional Identification tournament is played towards the end of U12. The District teams play a tournament and the Regional coaches scoute this formaility. The Regional Coaches employed by the OSA select a group of kids to move forward in the 1st stage of this program and by December of U12 the majority of candidates are selected to continue training. This training is once every week. A week long summer residency camp is also held. Towards the end of U13 a Provincial identification tournament is held between the 6-7 Regions. The Provincial Staff uses this as a formal scouting period for the Provincial Program. Out of this tournament a group is selected to advance to the 1st phase of the Provincial Provincial Program and towards the end of U13 an acceptable group of 25 candidates are selected to continue traing 4 and 5 times per week. This continues until the end of April when the kids are released back to their club teams. In the summer of U14 a group of 18 are selected to represent the Province in the Nationals Tournament. This becomes a two week period. Martyr I agree with you that there is no replacement for the the best kids traing with the best kids. This caliber of training in itself is definitly not at the club level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 quote:If I understand it correctly... (big 'if') aren't these district/regional programs part-time setups with the community youth clubs still being the main focus for the player? In that way they really end up just being a series of 'trials' for selection to the next level as opposed to being effective development opportunities. I've witnessed this with the Atlantic NTC program (although this was 2003/2004 so it has hopefully improved). They would meet up one weekend a month at best and expect those players to retain the information for the next session a month later. The players would then go back to their clubs with no serious opportunity to practice what they learned. If a player performed 'poorly' for two NTC sessions, they would be dropped from the programme. So it just became a series of continuous tryouts. Even if their community clubs are providing excellent coaching the players are still missing out from not competing with and against the best players from their region each week. There really is no replacement for that. So there will be players with fantastic potential who don't get to develop that talent through the experience of year-round "provincial team" level training and matches. If this is the case, there is a high risk that you will not necessarily be picking your 'best' players at the beginning of the process in the first place and that many potentially better players will be lost to the system. Either they run/ran things different in Atlantic Canada or times have changed. I'm not sure of the exact numbers but regional/provincial centers here run on a much more frequent timetable for the six months they operate (clubs will not give up their players in-season). And other than extreme for-cause reasons if players are released I believe it's on at least an annual basis (also because players have to buy-in to the program making it more contractual). There still are a fair share of problems, but virtually all are tied to funding. Because the programs are run over a Canadian Winter, similar programs in the UK have a very significant head start in not having to fund indoor facilities every training session. I read the COE Charter a few years back but have forgotten it all. It would be interesting to hear about the day-to-day realities of the COE model and if they have the same funding problems, i.e. the individual player cost, length of seasons, player availability (i.e. is it exclusive or on top of club), etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 quote:.. there is no replacement for the the best kids traing with the best kids .. Couldn't agree more and as important - with the best coaches. Which leads us back to Soccer9's missing U17 camp. I would presume the scouting at Nationals is finalized and money available for a Fall camp so we are getting behind the 8-ball. And if I remember right last time between the USA, Mexico and Costa Rica, getting out of CONCACAF was a very difficult thing to do. And we know who the Trinidad U17 coach is this time round too, so let's hope we make up for lost time with quantity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 Reading: Girls Overview: http://www.thefa.com/GetIntoFootball/Players/PlayersPages/WomensAndGirls/FAGirlsCentresOfExcellence.aspx Boys Regulations: http://www.thefa.com/TheFA/RulesandRegulations/~/media/Files/PDF/TheFA/ProgrammeforExcellence0809.ashx Girls Regulations: http://www.thefa.com/TheFA/RulesandRegulations/~/media/Files/PDF/TheFA/ProgrammeforExcellenceWomen0809.ashx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soccer9 Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Vic Couldn't agree more and as important - with the best coaches. Which leads us back to Soccer9's missing U17 camp. I would presume the scouting at Nationals is finalized and money available for a Fall camp so we are getting behind the 8-ball. And if I remember right last time between the USA, Mexico and Costa Rica, getting out of CONCACAF was a very difficult thing to do. And we know who the Trinidad U17 coach is this time round too, so let's hope we make up for lost time with quantity. Yes, let's hope Vic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gringo Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 U17 NTC should be training in October. The question remains who will be coaching. It was rumored that BR would not be, but we will see. I do think that the manager will not be returning........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soccer9 Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 quote:Originally posted by gringo U17 NTC should be training in October. The question remains who will be coaching. It was rumored that BR would not be, but we will see. I do think that the manager will not be returning........... It will be Ian Bridge, was announced back in June Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gringo Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 I saw Ian Bridge and others in Laval last month. I remember him being appointed as Canadian Scout. I suppose NTC Coach now makes sense. Is/will he perform double duty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soccer9 Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Apparently the first U17 WNT camp will be in Laval, QC end-Oct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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