Guest Ed Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 According to the Toronto Star, he has officially turned them down. Some real geniuses posting comments on that. Here's one, by the aptly handled 'Bleh': "Bleh It was probably his wife wanting to stay in Europe that ruined this deal. I bet that's what his management won't tell you. Anyway, Atiba Hutchinson would be a better signing for Toronto at any rate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 ^ what wife? Last I checked Julez is VERY single. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 That's the point, the commenter is making **** up. Pretty sure Julian has a daughter in Germany, but that's it...well, that and his brother (and mother?) in Holland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 That aside, how can anyone say that Atiba would be a better signing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Their eagerness to get a Canadian DP surprises even me. I know that their line of thinking changed on the Canadian front a little while ago, but the apparent insistence that it absolutely has to be a Canadian DP isn't something I fully understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teddym Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca Their eagerness to get a Canadian DP surprises even me. I know that their line of thinking changed on the Canadian front a little while ago, but the apparent insistence that it absolutely has to be a Canadian DP isn't something I fully understand. So you're not sure whether Mo really meant it either I see. I think he said what he did to make the news go down easier among those who think TFC should be CMNT light. Anyway I'm sure Julian's services will be available in a few 'short' years at considerably lower rates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 I fully disagree with Mo on the DP being a Canadian. I do not want to see a quality Canadian international giving up the best years of his career to come back to toil in MLS. If that's Hutch, Nsaliwa or anyone else you are better off (and this benefits the Men's NT) playing in Germany or with a big Greek club over MLS. I would rather see depth of Canadians - giving younger players a chance to play - instead of quality of Canadians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 ^ I want both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 ^ If quality means players like DeRo and Serioux who are already in MLS, then yes so do i. But if it means poaching young, ambitious Europeans pros with the potential to go on to greater things then i'd rather pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teddym Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 quote:Originally posted by jpg75 ^ If quality means players like DeRo and Serioux who are already in MLS, then yes so do i. But if it means poaching young, ambitious Europeans pros with the potential to go on to greater things then i'd rather pass. Poaching? You make it sound like child abduction. Your obvious disdain for MLS notwithstanding, TFC has no obligation to promote anybody's European career. And players are free to sign wherever they're entitled to play, last I heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 ^ Yes, players are free to sign wherever they choose and if any of our top Nats want to maximize their potential i'd like to see them stick in Europe where they're playing at a higher level than MLS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucklefan Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 quote:Originally posted by jpg75 I fully disagree with Mo on the DP being a Canadian. I do not want to see a quality Canadian international giving up the best years of his career to come back to toil in MLS. If that's Hutch, Nsaliwa or anyone else you are better off (and this benefits the Men's NT) playing in Germany or with a big Greek club over MLS. I would rather see depth of Canadians - giving younger players a chance to play - instead of quality of Canadians. I agree. I prefer to see young Canadians rise their talent with TFC and have the chance to play later in Europe rather than Canadians between 25 and 30 and well established in Europe. I thought that was the mission of the three Canadian professionals clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Odd Julian saying no as I don't see a thing, not even a rumour, about Julian finding something in Spain. Only bloggers recommending him (Santander, Mallorca, a notch down from Depor frankly), the fans seem to be onto him, but no comments about possible negotiations or teams. And all the clubs are well into pre-season (though he-d normally get more time for the GC, but not a lot). So what is going on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 quote:Originally posted by canucklefan I thought that was the mission of the three Canadian professionals clubs. The mission of the clubs is to win. Everything else is a side effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teddym Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 quote:Originally posted by jpg75 ^ Yes, players are free to sign wherever they choose and if any of our top Nats want to maximize their potential i'd like to see them stick in Europe where they're playing at a higher level than MLS. Now that is just so noble and large-hearted it almost brings a tear to my eye. But I have to say I'm glad players like Johnson, Hainault, Jakovic and Attakora are in MLS so I can at least see them play once in a blue moon. I don't live in Europe. And I'm not their coach or their uncle--just a fan who likes to watch soccer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 The whole idea that anything at the pro level over in Europe is automatically better in soccer terms than everything North America has to offer in that regard is a cultural cringe, which needs to be dropped. Unless players are playing in one of the very top leagues in UEFA coefficient terms like the Premiership, La Liga, the Bundesliga and serie A, it is debatable whether a player actually needs to leave North America to take things to another level in playing standard terms. The key attraction to moving to a level below that over in Europe in many instances will actually be the money on offer, which hopefully will be something, which MLS can address over the next decade or so. Almost comic that Gian-Luca is still peddling his "thinking changed" myth in this thread all because he still doesn't appear to be able to come to terms with the fact that Braz, Reda and Pozniak were not good enough to start regularly in MLS or grasp the fact that the MLS roster regulations being changed after the first season actually made it easier to trade for players like Serioux and De Rosario because it meant FC Dallas and Houston had significantly less leverage during negotiations. Also interesting that the numbers quoted for the JDG contract are considerably lower than what we have been led to believe by alleged inside sources:- http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/674499 The 28-year-old Canadian international midfielder, who has spent nearly a decade playing in Spain and Germany, told TFC officials this week he's looking to continue his career in Europe rather than suit up for the home side in a two-year deal worth $2.75 million...While Johnston was reluctant to get into financial details, a source familiar with the proposed deal said it included a $1 million signing bonus, $1.5 million for the two seasons and a $250,000 payout after year two regardless of whether de Guzman picked up the option for another two seasons with TFC. Info like that on blogs and messageboards will clearly have to be treated with greater skepticism in future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 quote:Originally posted by teddym So you're not sure whether Mo really meant it either I see. I think he said what he did to make the news go down easier among those who think TFC should be CMNT light. Anyway I'm sure Julian's services will be available in a few 'short' years at considerably lower rates. No, I think Mo does mean what he says. The "apparent" is in relation to whether it is an absolute insistence that it has to be a Canadian. He didn't actually say it absolutely had to be, but they are acting like it. It was notable in the River Plate game the massive cheer that Ali Gerba received for his first TFC game (especially in comparison to the paltry one O'Brien White got) and is the latest reason to believe (even without any inside info) that the management at the team are aware of Canadian star power within the market. I saw some Gol TV show taped in a pub with Mo surrounded by a bunch of fans where he reiterated the desire of a Canadian DP and said it was important for the community to have homegrown stars to look to. I don't disagree with that but I just don't think the DP should be reserved for Canucks only. He also mentioned that they hope to sign one or two kids from the academy to the team next year, which I hope is also the case, because now that TFC has gotten a decent number of Canadians playing regularly 1st team ball this year, the area which needs to be improved in developing homegrown talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard Almost comic that Gian-Luca is still peddling his "thinking changed" myth in this thread all because he still doesn't appear to be able to come to terms with the fact that Braz, Reda and Pozniak were not good enough to start regularly in MLS or grasp the fact that the MLS roster regulations being changed after the first season actually made it easier to trade for players like Serioux and De Rosario because it meant FC Dallas and Houston had significantly less leverage during negotiations. Almost comic the way you are talking out of your ass here. No, wait I'll take that back. It IS comic the way you are talking out of your ass. Not only have I never thought that Braz, Reda and Pozniak should be regular starters in the MLS, but my views on those players and those players themselves are completely irrelevant. And your argument about roster regulations making it easier to trade for Serioux and De Ro is truly hilarious - the first one was traded away from TFC to begin with under those original roster regulations and the second was never going to come here until he wanted to no matter what the regulations were. The reason why I believe that TFC management has changed its way of thinking is because their actions and words indicate such and because I've got info from two inside sources that indicate so. Given the financial motives involved I don't see why its so hard to believe. And frankly, I don't care in the slightest whether or not you believe it to be true, that's your problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard Also interesting that the numbers quoted for the JDG contract are considerably lower than what we have been led to believe by alleged inside sources:- http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/674499 The 28-year-old Canadian international midfielder, who has spent nearly a decade playing in Spain and Germany, told TFC officials this week he's looking to continue his career in Europe rather than suit up for the home side in a two-year deal worth $2.75 million...While Johnston was reluctant to get into financial details, a source familiar with the proposed deal said it included a $1 million signing bonus, $1.5 million for the two seasons and a $250,000 payout after year two regardless of whether de Guzman picked up the option for another two seasons with TFC. Info like that on blogs and messageboards will clearly have to be treated with greater skepticism in future. BBTB, newspaper 'sources' can be wrong as well. As you can see from the quote you posted, the Star was also using an unnamed source for its information. There is no reason for you to take their sources' word as gospel, especially when sources here and and blogs have been spot on about many other TFC issues in the past (while the Star has ignored all but the basic coverage of TFC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trillium Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Until the MLS rules have no national origin rules, and have open roster size, you cant have free flow of players. So any decisions made by clubs are mitigated by non-economic rules, then constrained by MLS salary cap. Until MLS is capable of implementing a fully open system of player hiring based on merit alone, and free to pay on a world pay scale the league will not compete with the top leagues that are open in such a manner. That said, the investment by the federal government and the CSA was done with the concept that TFC would enhance development of Canadian players to compete at a higher level and offer more oppourtunitys to those Canadians blocked by European employment regulations from becoming high level professionals. The great failure of Mo the Trader and the bean counters at MLSE is to not have built a much stronger tradition of Canadian players from day one, the shame of it is they have trouble now bringing in a bona-fide Designated Player who is Canadian because of it. De Guzman may well have opted for TFC if it had been the MNT lite, its not and he is rolling the dice to pick up a spot elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 quote:Originally posted by teddym Now that is just so noble and large-hearted it almost brings a tear to my eye. But I have to say I'm glad players like Johnson, Hainault, Jakovic and Attakora are in MLS so I can at least see them play once in a blue moon. I don't live in Europe. And I'm not their coach or their uncle--just a fan who likes to watch soccer. As a Voyageur first and a TFC fan second i want our very best players to be playing at the highest level they can. And you can drop the indignant act while you're at it, i'm not belittling your opinion so don't do it to mine. If Johnson, Hainault and Jakovic had been good enough to stick where they were, they wouldn't be back in MLS. They're all still young and have something to offer and MLS seems to be a level they can excel at for the time being. I would expect most of them to return to Europe at some point (Johnson and Jakovic should both have Euro passports). I also would have liked to have seen them play for TFC, but alas it didn't happen. And again, having to address BBTB "The whole idea that anything at the pro level over in Europe is automatically better in soccer terms than everything North America has to offer in that regard is a cultural cringe, which needs to be dropped". I don't recall anyone making mention that players would be better off anywhere in Europe. Specific mentions were: "If that's Hutch, Nsaliwa or anyone else you are better off (and this benefits the Men's NT) playing in Germany or with a big Greek club over MLS." "But if it means poaching young, ambitious Europeans pros with the potential to go on to greater things then i'd rather pass." "...and if any of our top Nats want to maximize their potential i'd like to see them stick in Europe where they're playing at a higher level than MLS." I'm not talking about players past their prime or playing in obviously lower leagues (Hungary, Bosnia) i'm talking about our top young players in better leagues or ready to move to bigger leagues: Edgar, De Jong, Friend, De Guzman, Hutch, Nsaliwa, Klukowski...remember, this is a conversation about using a Canadian as a DP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettermirror Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 All I have to say about this is ----- Thank.Goodness. Jules needs to be in Europe to be a true leader for Canada in WCQ, and for himself. He knows he can play for TFC when he is 30+, and that someone like Atiba will probably join him shortly after. The biggest difference between playing in a second-tier European squad and MLS?? Too many to name. Squad depth (competition), fan following, shorter travel, more pay, (probably) better coaching, opportunities play in different countries (either through Euro competitions or friendlies). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teddym Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Trillium . . . The great failure of Mo the Trader and the bean counters at MLSE is to not have built a much stronger tradition of Canadian players from day one, the shame of it is they have trouble now bringing in a bona-fide Designated Player who is Canadian because of it. De Guzman may well have opted for TFC if it had been the MNT lite, its not and he is rolling the dice to pick up a spot elsewhere. Bah! de Guzman just left because he wants to play where they don't think Deportivo La Coruna is some cigar-making outfit in Cuba. As for Trader Mo, you may already know that he's been given a two-year contract extension . . . so I guess the legitimacy of your 'great failure' reference depends on who you ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucklefan Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Rudi The mission of the clubs is to win. Everything else is a side effect. Yeah? I'm not so sure about that. The win without developing Canadian players means nothing to me and I hope I'm not the only one to think that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 quote:Originally posted by jpg75 As a Voyageur first and a TFC fan second i want our very best players to be playing at the highest level they can. And you can drop the indignant act while you're at it, i'm not belittling your opinion so don't do it to mine. If Johnson, Hainault and Jakovic had been good enough to stick where they were, they wouldn't be back in MLS. They're all still young and have something to offer and MLS seems to be a level they can excel at for the time being. I would expect most of them to return to Europe at some point (Johnson and Jakovic should both have Euro passports). I also would have liked to have seen them play for TFC, but alas it didn't happen. And again, having to address BBTB "The whole idea that anything at the pro level over in Europe is automatically better in soccer terms than everything North America has to offer in that regard is a cultural cringe, which needs to be dropped". I don't recall anyone making mention that players would be better off anywhere in Europe. Specific mentions were: "If that's Hutch, Nsaliwa or anyone else you are better off (and this benefits the Men's NT) playing in Germany or with a big Greek club over MLS." "But if it means poaching young, ambitious Europeans pros with the potential to go on to greater things then i'd rather pass." "...and if any of our top Nats want to maximize their potential i'd like to see them stick in Europe where they're playing at a higher level than MLS." I'm not talking about players past their prime or playing in obviously lower leagues (Hungary, Bosnia) i'm talking about our top young players in better leagues or ready to move to bigger leagues: Edgar, De Jong, Friend, De Guzman, Hutch, Nsaliwa, Klukowski...remember, this is a conversation about using a Canadian as a DP. I agree with your post except for the quote:If Johnson, Hainault and Jakovic had been good enough to stick where they were, they wouldn't be back in MLS. With Johnson this may be correct but the other two were not playing in leagues that are superior to MLS. While I do think TFC or any other Canadian club should make an effort to have as many Canadian players as possible I don't see why the DP would necessarily have to be Canadian. I think you can only make a case for two that being JDG and to a lesser extent Friend since he has not played that long and proved himself in the Bundesliga yet. I don't see how anyone could think of Hutch as a DP. A better candidate to be making $300 000 than Robinson but not a DP by any means. As far as which figures are correct concerning the offer to JDG, I would judge them on what seems normal and reasonable. $2.75 million for a year and a half seems reasonable and while still more than he will get in Europe (don't forget he is an average La Liga starter not a star) a lot more in line with his market worth than the ridiculous figures MediaGuy was bandying about. I am no fan of Mo but even I don't believe he is that crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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