GC - July 18th - Canada vs. Honduras

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

What was truly bizarre was that someone felt the need to do that despite having obviously never seem him play in the role I mentioned and despite the fact it didn't negate the core point I was making given the other three names I mentioned. Who knows maybe I have to be put in my place because I wasn't one of the 15 or so standing around the snare drum at Lynx games?

Just as the Canadian national team hasn't suddenly improved in the last decade or so, there were vocal groups of fans singing at pro soccer games in Canada long before the Voyageurs board started up and Usector, the Southsiders and the Ultras started posting merrily away on the internet about a decade ago. Even a team like the Kitchener Spirit used to have a group that did that stuff during their games in the CSL 20 years ago. Having a group of younger fans gathering together to chant during games isn't exactly a novel concept but every generation likes to think they were the first to do things and that their era is something special both on and off the field.

There is no conspiracy. The CMNT isn't that great right now in CONCACAF terms because Canadian soccer has stood still in quality terms. When the team was better in relative terms than it is now there were multiple WC qualification performances that would result in World Cup finals appearances nowadays. Time to quite the whining and focus on how to put pressure on the CSA to make some positive changes in the Canadian game. That is an area where supporters of the national team can actually make their voice heard quite effectively through protests at home games.

[El Hombre]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

What was truly bizarre was that someone felt the need to do that despite having obviously never seem him play in the role I mentioned and despite the fact it didn't negate the core point I was making given the other three names I mentioned. Who knows maybe I have to be put in my place because I wasn't one of the 15 or so standing around the snare drum at Lynx games?

You do need to relax and stop being so defensive. I had the exact same question as Rudi, he just got to it first. He was looking for clarification and you turned it into some sort of personal vendetta.

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

There is no conspiracy. The CMNT isn't that great right now in CONCACAF terms because Canadian soccer has stood still in quality terms. When the team was better in relative terms than it is now there were multiple WC qualification performances that would result in World Cup finals appearances nowadays. Time to quite the whining and focus on how to put pressure on the CSA to make some positive changes in the Canadian game. That is an area where supporters of the national team can actually make their voice heard quite effectively through protests at home games.

I disagree with this. Aside from not converting one of our chances against a bunkering team, Canada has played fairly well recently. Our B-Team was a poor goal clearance from beating Costa Rica. Jamaica and El Salvador are no slouches and both were taking this tournament seriously, and we beat them both. Expectations of trouncing other CONCACAF teams are unrealistic, not because we are a poor team, but because that doesn't happen with regularity even with the top teams. The US lost to T and T last October and managed only a 2-2 tie with El Salvador in March.

I think everybody is extrapolating the poor finishing (and I hate to repeat it) against a bunkering team</u> in one game without taking into account the other games we've played recently.

Maybe we weren't that good on this day. However, I refuse to believe that on another day we can't compete for the third or fourth spot in the region.

[Guest Ed]

Although I think BBTB is a complete douche in turning this into a Geoff Aunger op/ed thread, I do agree that our Cdn men's team is definitely not top 6 in CONCACAF. To say we are top 3 or 4 is ridiculous and is purely an emotional statement as there is no way you can logically defend that statement.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by El Hombre

However, I refuse to believe that on another day we can't compete for the third or fourth spot in the region.

We have to be honest with ourselves. We are not a Top 3 team in CONCACAF at the moment.

In my opinion USA is #1, HON is #2 and mexico is a shaky 3rd.

We are also not the 9th or 10th best side in CONCACAF, as our current ranking would suggest.

Realistically, we lie somewhere in between. I'd peg us as capable of being consistently the 5th best MNT in the region and maybe, on our better days, we are 4th best. However, on our bad days, we'd have trouble holding down the 6th or 7th best ranking (behind T&T, Jamaica and Costa Rica).

That's the reality, as I see it. We have a couple of very high quality players and we have decent depth in certain positions. Unfortunately, we still lack BIG talents in the offensive 1/3 of the pitch who can change the game. What that means is we still lack the raw material needed to make the World Cup out of our region.

Canada has stood still for upwards of 20+ years while our competition has improved, and in some cases improved enormously.

It's going to take 8-10 years before we start to see the fruit of any new player development philosophies that the CSA is seeking to implement (and that's only if they really start to make major changes now, which they don't get to on their own...they need the provinces to line up behind them).

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

What was truly bizarre was that someone felt the need to do that despite having obviously never seem him play in the role I mentioned and despite the fact it didn't negate the core point I was making given the other three names I mentioned. Who knows maybe I have to be put in my place because I wasn't one of the 15 or so standing around the snare drum at Lynx games?

There's that passive-aggressive smiley again.

For fuck sake, I was wondering aloud about Geoff Aunger, and you decided to turn it into an argument like you always do.

My simple comment about Aunger was not "obsessing" and once it was clarified (by you and Cheeta) I answered your question that I thought the current crop of strikers was better than he was.

It had nothing to do with the Lynx or your lack of attendance in those games, I have no idea where you got such an idea.

quote:Just as the Canadian national team hasn't suddenly improved in the last decade or so, there were vocal groups of fans singing at pro soccer games in Canada long before the Voyageurs board started up and Usector, the Southsiders and the Ultras started posting merrily away on the internet about a decade ago. Even a team like the Kitchener Spirit used to have a group that did that stuff during their games in the CSL 20 years ago. Having a group of younger fans gathering together to chant during games isn't exactly a novel concept but every generation likes to think they were the first to do things and that their era is something special both on and off the field.

What the hell are you talking about?

You imply that I'm obsessed and nitpicking, yet I don't even post anything and you decide to go on the offensive against me.

This entire diatribe of yours is the very definition of nitpicking, and now you're bringing in your obvious perceptions of me (that I somehow think that I was the first to get people together and stand and chant at games) into a discussion that had never even broached the subject.

I used to sit - as a very young kid - in front of the H Block, so I'm fully aware that supporters groups are not a novel concept. Of course, it has nothing to do with anything said in this thread, Gold Cup/CMNT or otherwise, yet you decided to bring it up to try to call me out for some odd reason.

And somehow I'm the one that's obsessed?

quote:There was plenty of life in Canadian soccer before you latched onto the Toronto Lynx. Over and out for a day or so.

Before I "latched on" to the Lynx, I was attending Blizzard games and was even part of their junior club (forget the name). My family (as part of our cultural connections) were frequent house guests of Jomo Sono and David Byrne.

I've been supporting local soccer literally since I was an infant. I've attended national team games since the late 80's, well before the Lynx arrived.

Is that good enough for you? Do I pass your legitimacy test?

You need to stop being so damned high and mighty on these (and other) boards. No one here is going to bow to your supposed superior knowledge like they did on the RPB board, so perhaps you've turned to trying to embarrass people on here to feel superior again, who knows?

BBTB, I asked a simple question about Aunger and you turned it into some sort of pissing match. Even after I answered your question pertaining to the actual discussion, you continued to belittle me (even when responding to other people).

quote:Originally posted by El Hombre

You do need to relax and stop being so defensive. I had the exact same question as Rudi, he just got to it first. He was looking for clarification and you turned it into some sort of personal vendetta.

Thank you.

quote:Originally posted by Ed

Although I think BBTB is a complete douche, I do agree that our Cdn men's team is definitely not top 6 in CONCACAF. To say we are top 3 or 4 is ridiculous and is purely an emotional statement as there is no way you can logically defend that statement.

Soccer is an emotional game.

I do agree that we here tend to inflate the level of the team, I honestly do not believe that the team is that bad.

I'd reasonably put the US, Mexico, Costa Rica and Honduras ahead of us in CONCACAF at the moment. We're top 5, in my opinion.

What's so frustrating is that all of us can see that the team has the potential to be so much better. I think we're the only country in CONCACAF that has the potential to join the US and Mexico as the true top dogs of the region, due to population base and social realities.

Teams like CR, Honduras, Jamaica and Trinidad have surges based on generational talent, but socio-economically they can't expect to be perennial powerhouses in the region.

That's the most frustrating part, that we should be better than we are. Even with the group we have right now, we should be better than we are.

[El Hombre]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

Although I think BBTB is a complete douche in turning this into a Geoff Aunger op/ed thread, I do agree that our Cdn men's team is definitely not top 6 in CONCACAF. To say we are top 3 or 4 is ridiculous and is purely an emotional statement as there is no way you can logically defend that statement.

I didn't say that we are top 3 or 4 in our region. I said that on another day we could compete for those positions. Sometimes we look like world beaters while other times we can't find the net with a compass and a map.

The point was that there is a fair amount of parity in our region outside of a couple top teams and with a couple consistent performances when it counts, we could find ourselves near(er) the top. I believe we have the talent, we just seem to misfire with the execution every now and then.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

Before I "latched on" to the Lynx, I was attending Blizzard games and was even part of their junior club (forget the name).

That was the Blizzard Booster Club, IIRC correctly. I was also a member, and the other day came across my autographed Ivan Lukacevic photo that I received for being in the club (IIRC members got a team poster and could request a signed photo of their favourite player - naturally as a kid my favourite was the one who's last name most closely resembled my first name).

[BearcatSA]

Like a few others here, I've watched the MNT for (too?) many years now and I have to say that I have really enjoyed watching the last two Gold Cups (and a couple of matches in between) because I just like the possession style of play. I think this emergence has more to do with the consistent club level experience of our current key players than it has to do with MNT coaching direction. However, I don't downgrade the talents of some of the former players we've had in our program. For instance, I thought Catliff was a helluva player: could have used a bit more pace and obviously hamstrung by injury, but he had top notch skills as a goal providing target man as well as poaching instincts and an excellent free kick shooter. Mitchell was a clever player who had an nose for goal.

Since I've been a participant on this board the trend I see is an overrating of the MNT when results are going well but also an underrating of the team when setbacks occur. CONCACAF is always going to be a dogfight, plain and simple, but in my view I think the glass is half full for us so long as we continue to build on it. Keep working to get friendlies in the fall and get key young prospects cap-tied will help. Getting even more younger Canadians having key roles on their MLS clubs I believe will be a big part of it, just as the NASL and CSL were for WC 86 and the final hurdle of WC 94, respectively.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

I was thinking oh well, lost another one, so be it. Then I realize I haven't posted in 4 days. Meaning I am in mourning and in denial.

I won't read any more than the last page of the thread either.

I see I disagree with a lot of people on what was right and wrong.

The ref gifted them a penalty that was totally undeserved.

Until that point the play was fairly even, we had not really gotten into a groove but they had not really created serious danger. After the goal it is hard to read the game as Honduras defended in orderly fashion, with a lot of guys back, and we ran up against the wall with no luck, lacking a bit of balls or verve or rage or whatever, and dominated without getting anything for it.

For me if you really played to a scoreless draw you can't get at the defenders or keepers. Sutton and the back four were as fine as they needed to be, and we played well out of the back.

Julian was the only real midfield option, he tried to do a lot, lead, and ended up having to do too much. Meaning those beside him failed. Along with those the only other I would save is Simpson for his insistence in playing like an outside wing and trying to carefully pick out the options, whether crossing from the endline or cutting in before. A competent job on his part.

The rest, the other three mids and the striker, let us down, poor matches. I think in terms of potential playing level the player that most worries me is Atiba, as he is no longer on an upward curve professionally, has stalled, and does not seem to be able to do anything about it. Bernier was avg to poor, so was Gerba, Johnson really was poorly placed on the field, and the subs did little.

Hart had one of his worst games in front of Canada in my view, because I think it is fair to ask him for more when he has proved before he can give us more. This team was significantly lower quality than the one in the last GC.

Finally, would DeRo and Radz have made a difference? Definitely yes, no question about it. Not saying a win with them, but certainly an attacking formation with more sense and criteria going at the goal.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

Focusing obsessively on Geoff Aunger is petty nitpicking because the other three mentioned are also part of the group quoted and the comparison was one group versus another group. Even if you think the current crop are better than Aunger (despite it being obvious that you never saw Aunger play as a striker) you completely neglect to mention Radzinski, Peschisolido and Bunbury because you know perfectly well you wouldn't have a leg to stand on where those three are concerned.

In the context of national team players it is not fair to mention Radzinski since he didn't play for the national team when he was scoring all those goals in Europe. This would be the equivalent of mentioning Hargreaves or Fernandez for examples of highly skilled Canadians developed recently. If I recall correctly, when Radzinski played for the national team early in his career he was a midfielder not a striker.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

In the context of national team players it is not fair to mention Radzinski since he didn't play for the national team when he was scoring all those goals in Europe. This would be the equivalent of mentioning Hargreaves or Fernandez for examples of highly skilled Canadians developed recently. If I recall correctly, when Radzinski played for the national team early in his career he was a midfielder not a striker.

And I'm going to guess that his unwillingness to play in that position for Lenarduzzi (I think?) may have led to his self-induced exile from the MNT.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by BearcatSA

And I'm going to guess that his unwillingness to play in that position for Lenarduzzi (I think?) may have led to his self-induced exile from the MNT.

I do remember him being upset at how Lenarduzzi was using him though I can't remember if it was the position or how he was being employed in that position. Nevertheless, during the prime years of his career, Ossieck was the coach and wanted him to come in as a striker.

[Whither Canada]

quote:Originally posted by The Ref

The CSA board is probably trying on their new blazers. Has the CSA ever complained to FIFA about anything?

This will be the first and last time I EVER defend Kevan Pipe anywhere, but didn't he lodge a formal protest after we got screwed against the U.S. in the last Gold Cup?

Not sure whether it was to CONCACAF or FIFA but I remember being pleasantly surprised at the time that good ol' Kevan could turn so red. Of course it came to naught.

[Guest Ed]

Nothing could be further from the facts. In fact, Pipe was part of the FIFA crew at that game (having been sacked from the CSA and given a nice hand-up by pals Jack and Chuck) and was part of the group our team was screaming at for the missed call.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

In the context of national team players it is not fair to mention Radzinski since he didn't play for the national team when he was scoring all those goals in Europe.

The point I made appears to have gone over your head. Radzinski was a player who was developed right up to the pro level by clubs in Canada i.e by the North York Rockets in the CSL and St Catherines Roma in the CNSL. Back when Canada was actually competitive with the top CONCACAF teams in the 80s and early 90s most of the players on the CMNT were products of the local soccer scene in southern Ontario and lower mainland BC and up until the 90s that usually led to the NASL and later the CSL and MISL rather than to Europe. A club like Toronto Italia for example produced players like Bob Iarusci and Hector Marinaro, while later the likes of Radzinski, Bunbury, Peschisolido and Devos emerged from the CSL.

For the last 10 years or so the progression has often tended to be elite youth club to provincial and national programs to obscure European youth team. Some people seem to think that has led to a better roster than ever because they see anything European as inherently a step up from anything North American so they wind up having to resort to conspiracy theories to rationalize away the feeling of cognitive dissonance when the anticipated results do not materialize on the field of play in a CONCACAF context.

I personally think it is time to do what the Americans did on their path to the top in CONCACAF and drop the exaggerated euro-fixation and focus on building up the made in Canada path to the pros and national team again. Fortunately, although the local semi-pro scene is a pale shadow of what it used to be in southern Ontario (not going to comment on the lower mainland BC situation) there are plenty of signs of a recovery in that regard with the three fully pro teams building academy systems and PDL starting to make the NCAA scholarship route look more viable as well.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

The point I made appears to have gone over your head. Radzinski was a player who was developed right up to the pro level by clubs in Canada i.e by the North York Rockets in the CSL and St Catherines Roma in the CNSL. Back when Canada was actually competitive with the top CONCACAF teams in the 80s and early 90s most of the players on the CMNT were products of the local soccer scene in southern Ontario and lower mainland BC and up until the 90s that usually led to the NASL and later the CSL and MISL rather than to Europe. A club like Toronto Italia for example produced players like Bob Iarusci and Hector Marinaro, while later the likes of Radzinski, Bunbury, Peschisolido and Devos emerged from the CSL.

For the last 10 years or so the progression has often tended to be elite youth club to provincial and national programs to obscure European youth team. Some people seem to think that has led to a better roster than ever because they see anything European as inherently a step up from anything North American so they wind up having to resort to conspiracy theories to rationalize away the feeling of cognitive dissonance when the anticipated results do not materialize on the field of play in a CONCACAF context.

I personally think it is time to do what the Americans did on their path to the top in CONCACAF and drop the exaggerated euro-fixation and focus on building up the made in Canada path to the pros and national team again. Fortunately, although the local semi-pro scene is a pale shadow of what it used to be in southern Ontario (not going to comment on the lower mainland BC situation) there are plenty of signs of a recovery in that regard with the three fully pro teams building academy systems and PDL starting to make the NCAA scholarship route look more viable as well.

OK Soccer expert. Before you start talking about your inaccurate and ignorant as always points going over my head tell me this:

At what age did Radzinski join North York Rockets? How long did he stay? Which teams he play for before that?

I think it will be apparent that the answers to these questions totally negates the rest of your argument concerning Radzinski as evidence of superior Canadian player developement in the past.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Not going to pursue any more argumentative testosterone-fueled follow ups that nitpick some tiny point in a can't see the wood for trees sort of way. If somebody can construct an intelligent and broad sweeping argument about the changes that have taken place in Canadian soccer since the NASL era I will be happy to pursue this issue with them.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

Not going to pursue any more argumentative testosterone-fueled follow ups that nitpick some tiny point in a can't see the wood for trees sort of way. If somebody can construct an intelligent and broad sweeping argument about the changes that have taken place in Canadian soccer since the NASL era I will be happy to pursue this issue with them.

Just as I thought, afraid to reveal the ignorance that went in to your argument. You claim,

quote:Radzinski was a player who was developed right up to the pro level by clubs in Canada

which is absolutely untrue and that is

quote:some tiny point in a can't see the wood for trees sort of way

according to you. I am still waiting for you to answer my three questions oh wise one. I will repeat them for you and after you answer them maybe you can enlighten us on how Radzinski was

quote:Radzinski was a player who was developed right up to the pro level by clubs in Canada

.

At what age did Radzinski join North York Rockets? How long did he stay? Which teams he play for before that?

[RS]

Radz was 16 when he joined North York, was he not? So arguably most of his development happened when he was still in Europe.

The player development of that era was not better in this country than it is now, they just had inferior opposition. In fact, I'd argue that even with only three pro clubs, current player development is better than it was in the 80's and 90's because the clubs are bringing in more players at a younger age (and this will only improve further as TFC is set expanding their youth academy next year, and hopefully the Impact will follow the Caps' lead to some extent), and the (admittedly flawed) NTC system is better than none at all.

Still, there is obviously much work to be done.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

Radz was 16 when he joined North York, was he not? So arguably most of his development happened when he was still in Europe.

The player development of that era was not better in this country than it is now, they just had inferior opposition. In fact, I'd argue that even with only three pro clubs, current player development is better than it was in the 80's and 90's because the clubs are bringing in more players at a younger age (and this will only improve further as TFC is set expanding their youth academy next year, and hopefully the Impact will follow the Caps' lead to some extent), and the (admittedly flawed) NTC system is better than none at all.

Still, there is obviously much work to be done.

Yes that is the correct answer to the first question BBTB was afraid to answer. Since I know he is too cowardly to answer the other two. Radzinski began playing for a small Polish club. From the ages of 13 to 16 he played for Vfl Osnabruck in Germany. He then played 3 seasons for North York and one for St. Catherines before going to Belgium to play for Germinal Ekeren. Thus he spent 4 years of his soccer development in Canada, hardly:

quote:a player who was developed right up to the pro level by clubs in Canada

Yes I agree with Rudi that our player development was not better in the past, the level of play in CONCACAF was much worse. Even still we only managed to qualify once for the World Cup so I don't see where all the evidence is that we had so many great players in the past. Our player pool is much better now both at the top level and in terms of depth. The problem for us is that many of the other countries in CONCACAF have also improved and some at a faster rate than we have. Additionally, many of their soccer federations have more money than us and are willing to spend it on good coaches.

[Juby]

not the recent bit of argueing and stuff but I just wish a couple people way back could avoid turning 'beef' and basic national competitiveness from just talking **** about peoples countries and people, your not really standing on a moral high ground anymore if they talk **** about Canada anymore.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

Yes I agree with Rudi that our player development was not better in the past, the level of play in CONCACAF was much worse. Even still we only managed to qualify once for the World Cup so I don't see where all the evidence is that we had so many great players in the past. Our player pool is much better now both at the top level and in terms of depth. The problem for us is that many of the other countries in CONCACAF have also improved and some at a faster rate than we have.

Bingo.

But as I said before, this country will always have the potential to be top three in the region solely because of the population base and social realities (we're one of two first world countries in CONCACAF, and the other is the best team in the region).

What will it take to get us to the point where we can even (consistently) qualify for the Hex, let alone the World Cup? I honestly don't think we're that far off from such a modest goal (qualifying for the Hex), but it'll take a major shift - in structure, in approach to developing the game, etc. - to take us to the level of Costa Rica (a perennial contender to qualify for the World Cup.

Bringing it back to the debate at hand, both Aunger and now Radzinski have now been eliminated (for different reasons) from the list of forwards that are "so much better" than the current crop. Pesch and Bunbury were definitely big talents, although the likes of Gerba and DeRo (who has played as both midfielder and forward with the national team) have similar/better output than those two.

I can hardly speak an ill word about Pesch though, as the wee man was my idol when I was growing up.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Bad enough that certain individuals prefer to nitpick some tiny point in aggressive testosterone-fueled posts rather than coming up with intelligent counter-arguments but now my words are being outright distorted. At no point did I say that the forwards that emerged from the CSL in the early 90s were better than the current group. Truly pathetic that the words "so much better" would be placed in quotes to imply that I did. My argument was and remains that the overall quality of the CMNT has pretty much stood still over that time span. I'm not alone in thinking that. VPjr made a similar comment on the last page.

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

Canada has stood still for upwards of 20+ years while our competition has improved, and in some cases improved enormously.

If anyone can come up with an intelligent and broad sweeping argument as to why that is not the case I will be happy to pursue this further.

[Juby]

All that crosses my mind for this debate is that the game of soccer in general always continues to improve, I don't want to be mean but from the few older games I've seen, certain ideas (mostly creative which isn't a strong point, but a little bit tactically) just don't seem to cross their minds. As good as they could be I kinda think we'd need to be able put them through the modern football system to see which is of course impossible. That may make it horribly skewed but their would be a horrible problem if the next generation didn't appear to have improved.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I can see where you are coming from but I think the top players of yesteryear would have had the quality to adapt to intervening changes in tactics if they had been exposed to them. Also worth noting that even in the context of the mid-90s many people were less than happy with Bobby Lenarduzzi and his emphasis on speculative long balls blasted in the general direction of Alex Bunbury. That may have been a factor in another of the players to emerge from the CSL, Fernando Aguiar, not being a factor in CMNT terms.