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GC - July 18th - Canada vs. Honduras


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We need to be twice as good, really. It's no good being equal... If we are dominant we don't have this conversation.. But still,it would be nice to have a decent ref,and lose fairly,rather than this. Nobody has to like it.

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quote:Originally posted by elricko

I wish you would all stop your whining,and face up to the simple truth.......Canadian soccer is pretty poor quality....... we do not have any leagues.....

Agree with a lot of what you wrote but not the leagues bit. Both MLS and USL-D1 are as good as or better than a sizable portion of the top tiered leagues over in Europe in average quality terms, even if they are a definite step down from the likes of the Premiership and La Liga. Some people on here overestimate the quality of the pool of players available to the CMNT because they have a very eurocentric outlook in which playing domestically in a CONCACAF context is seen as automatically being second best to playing over in Europe even in the context of lower division teams in the larger countries and the top divisions of smaller countries. That makes it difficult to come to terms with defeat to a team like Honduras who called up a squad of players from their domestic league for the most part for this particular Gold Cup. CONCACAF has changed considerably from what it was like 15 to 20 years ago when Central American teams could be beaten by simply swinging lots of high crosses over for a tall and physically imposing forward like John Catliff to head in on set pieces but some people's attitudes and expectations have not.

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One thing that I didn't see mentioned was the quality of turf, and how well we play on this turf. I do think that Julian and Hutch and others are not as effective on turf, and they would have dominated much more on real grass.

In my opinion we would not have lost this game had it been played on real grass. Real grass favors our style of play, I thought Julian really struggled to find his feet in the turf out there.

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quote:Originally posted by speedmonk42

Well said. It is possible to be aware of the shortcomings of our team and complain about the lack of a level playing field and its obvious that most people on this forum are able to do that. We've got another 2 years before a meaningful game at any level on the men's side and plenty of time to analyze where improvements need to be addressed, it should not be a surprise that people will show a little emotion right after getting ripped off for the umpteenth time. In fact it would be disappointing if it were not and I think we should be allowed to do so without being labelled as whiners (ironically most people doing so are doing nothing but whining, they are just doing so about a different subject). I'm glad to see the players are speaking out in anger at Concacaf but Hart keeping a somewhat more level head (while still complaining) - that's the way it should be.

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quote:Originally posted by Ruud

One thing that I didn't see mentioned was the quality of turf, and how well we play on this turf. I do think that Julian and Hutch and others are not as effective on turf, and they would have dominated much more on real grass.

In my opinion we would not have lost this game had it been played on real grass. Real grass favors our style of play, I thought Julian really struggled to find his feet in the turf out there.

That was turf. The correct meaning of the word turf is grass (hence the term artificial turf). Lincoln Financial Field is a grass surface.

I'll let that pass as long as you don't (like our other Dutch friend) say that the grass was purple or blue or something like that :)

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quote:Originally posted by elricko

Thank goodness for Nolando and Nolbertos for stating some sense re. the game ,and Canada's "attempts" to play soccer.

I have been watching and supporting soccer for over 50 years, and unfortunately ,watching and supporting Canada over 35 of those years, usually with abject disappointment..and have been continually reading this forum for approx. 8 years..so I do know a little about the sport...unlike so many on here.

This country is full of whiners who are so eager to complain about every world sport that it fails at, which is most sports ...the USA was non-existent at soccer when I arrived here 35 years ago..they did not whine, they decided to become a success..and now they are . Canada lacks some inner strength, some resourcefulness , a will to win, a desire to succeed...maybe it's the cosmopolitan cultural mix...but I tell you, I know from experience, something is missing here !!!!

Did you even watch the group stage? We played some of the best soccer we ever have. Saying we were bad in your first post just made you lose all credibility. It seemed like you didn't even watch the games when you started mentioning stuff about the U 20 2007 championship two years ago and us not having a league.

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haven't read the thread, and i wont. bottom line is we couldn't score. i'm sick of bitching about the refs and concacaf, i just doesn't mater if we cant score. everytime i start to believe in this team...

Jakovic played like crap. sorry but he played worse than hastings would have. horrible.

the mids couldnt find gerba enough. whatever, there are plenty of positives to take away, main one being that Johnson is up to international level, tho he doesnt look to be a goalscorer he is an asset as he understands the patient build up play that hutchinson and deguzman like to utilize.

our players can't deem to handle the least bit of pressure, they cannot be favourites going into anything and get a result. Hart is alright but going with him would be a step sideways for the program at best.

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quote:Originally posted by Macksam

Did you even watch the group stage? We played some of the best soccer we ever have.

I've watched CMNT games going back as far as the 86 WC finals so I think I have some perspective on this (not being boastful I know many on here like elricko and Gian-Luca will have watched CMNT games for significantly longer than that) and would have to take issue with that. There is an attitude on this board amongst some younger posters (not sure if that applies to you but Keegan definitely immediately comes to mind) that the current team is better than ever, the next generation of players are going to be the best ever but I just don't see it.

In the 80s there were some excellent Canadian players around like Tino Lettieri, Bobby Lenarduzzi, Randy Ragan, Gerry Gray, Bruce Wilson, Branko Segota, Paul James and yes even Dale Mitchell who emerged in the NASL and in the 90s although they were a failure in commercial terms there is no doubt that the original CSL and the APSL that followed were a success in terms of launching the pro careers of the top young Canadian players.

I'll concede that there is maybe slightly more strength in depth now but back in the 80s and 90s Canada were a genuine threat to qualify out of CONCACAF but now even just making the hex appears to be beyond the current generation. I think that's because the quality of the core group in the CMNT has pretty much stood still, while countries like the United States, Costa Rica, Honduras, Jamaica and Trinidad and Tobago have markedly improved over the same time span.

For example in the 90s up front Canada produced Radzinski, Peschisolido, Bunbury and Aunger who went on to better and bigger things after first playing in the original CSL. Are the likes of Friend, Occean, Jackson, Johnson and Gerba really supposed to be an upgrade on that group? Where is this generation's Craig Forrest or even Jason Devos? Maybe David Edgar will get there eventually in the latter case but it hasn't happened yet.

[/rant]

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Here come the pedants. :) In the CSL years he was definitely a striker. He played for the second incarnation of the London Lasers so I would know. Later in his career he converted to a more defensive role. Would be interested in more general arguments as to why the current CMNT is supposed to be so much better rather than petty nitpicking.

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quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

You could have easily googled it.

Or I could have mentioned it on a soccer discussion board on which people discuss Canadian players.

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quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

Here come the pedants. :) In the CSL years he was definitely a striker. He played for the second incarnation of the London Lasers so I would know. Later in his career he converted to a more defensive role. Would be interested in more general arguments as to why the current CMNT is supposed to be so much better rather than petty nitpicking.

Attacking mid, sometimes right side striker for the Fury back in the day.

Wasn't half ass bad, for that level anyway. Quite sure he won the Golden Boot in the CSL at least once, or damned near. On the weight of a whack of penalties somehow recall him finished 2nd overall one year at the least.

Some reason don't remember him being especially popular here though. Couple of local lads were coming into their own at the same time and got all the love if I recall correctly.

Crazy right foot that could go from diamond to **** in the same minute it seemed. Even if his Gramps died and willed it to him he wouldn't have an honest, useful tackle in him. Gawd he could be awful. But then a half minute later he would bend a perfectly weighted ball into the box and onto Paul Clarke's head from 50 yards. Or volley one over the keep from outside the box. Or cash in the garbage. It was crazy.

You just didn't know when something good enough would happen to trump all the crap...

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quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

Attacking mid, sometimes right side striker for the Fury back in the day.

Wasn't half ass bad, for that level anyway. Quite sure he won the Golden Boot in the CSL at least once, or damned near. On the weight of a whack of penalties somehow recall him finished 2nd overall one year at the least.

Some reason don't remember him being especially popular here though. Couple of local lads were coming into their own at the same time and got all the love if I recall correctly.

Crazy right foot that could go from diamond to **** in the same minute it seemed. Even if his Gramps died and willed it to him he wouldn't have an honest, useful tackle in him. Gawd he could be awful. But then a half minute later he would bend a perfectly weighted ball into the box and onto Paul Clarke's head from 50 yards. Or volley one over the keep from outside the box. Or cash in the garbage. It was crazy.

You just didn't know when something good enough would happen to trump all the crap...

Thanks, Cheeta.

I definitely remember Aunger being a holding mid or right back with DC United during his later playing days. I have no recollection at all of Aunger as a striker, though. In fact, the mere thought of him being counted on to score goals is frightening, but alas it is what he was tasked to do.

And yeah, I distinctly remember him being the V's whipping boy of the day.

I'd say the days of Geoff Aunger types being in the mix of the national team at striker are thankfully behind us. So yes BBTB, it is certainly a better situation now when a Geoff Aunger would not be the fourth name listed when thinking of the striker pool.

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So after all the huffing and puffing it turns out that you actually were in petty nitpicking mode. Did you see the phrase "I'll concede that there is maybe slightly more strength in depth now", Rudi? When the current squad are able to get to a penalty shootout in a qualification playoff similar to what happened against Australia in 1994 after a final group performance in a CONCACAF context that would result in qualification in the 32 team finals format that is in place nowadays we will be as well off as we were 15 years ago.

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quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

So after all the huffing and puffing it turns out that you actually were in petty nitpicking mode.

... says the guy who is still nitpicking pettily at my posts.

Where is this "huffing and puffing" that you are referring to? You don't need to get so damned defensive over every post, it's pretty transparent even though you often disguise it with a smiley emoticon.

I wasn't attacking you or your post, I was genuinely wondering aloud, as I remembered him differently than the way you stated. That's all.

quote:Did you see the phrase "I'll concede that there is maybe slightly more strength in depth now", Rudi?

Yes, I did, but I was responding to this:

Are the likes of Friend, Occean, Jackson, Johnson and Gerba really supposed to be an upgrade on that group?

I consider the current crop (of which Occean is not a part) to be better than the likes of Geoff Aunger. I thought you wanted "general arguments as to why the current CMNT is supposed to be so much better rather than petty nitpicking," yet when I answered your question (in my response to Cheeta) you still decided that I was nitpicking and "huffing and puffing."

If you don't want me to answer, then don't ask the question.

quote:When the current squad are able to get to a penalty shootout in a qualification playoff similar to what happened against Australia in 1994 after a final group performance in a CONCACAF context that would result in qualification in the 32 team finals format that is in place nowadays we will be as well off as we were 15 years ago.

I don't remember anyone claiming that we are as well off as we were then.

The general feeling is that Canada is more talented overall, though.

The problem is, of course, that the entire region is far more developed now than it was 15 years ago. I don't know if that 1993 team would get as far in WCQ now as they did then, but that's all guesswork.

Certainly there were some incredible standout talents on that team, but as you say the depth is better now than it was then.

Regardless, Canada was "more well off" then because it faced far weaker opponents. I'd argue that the Canada team that flamed out of WCQ last year would walk through CONCACAF circa 1993, except Mexico who would still be formidable.

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Focusing obsessively on Geoff Aunger is petty nitpicking because the other three mentioned are also part of the group quoted and the comparison was one group versus another group. Even if you think the current crop are better than Aunger (despite it being obvious that you never saw Aunger play as a striker) you completely neglect to mention Radzinski, Peschisolido and Bunbury because you know perfectly well you wouldn't have a leg to stand on where those three are concerned. I mentioned Aunger in the context of CSL players who went on to bigger and better things. John Catliff didn't do that and had a career curtailed by injury but was another CSL era CMNT striker who still features very prominently in the all time goalscorers list. In the early 90s Mitchell, Segota and Marinaro were still around from an earlier era as well but the latter two were playing indoors for the most part and there was the issue related to the Merlion Cup scandal with Marinaro. There was plenty of life in Canadian soccer before you latched onto the Toronto Lynx. Over and out for a day or so.

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quote:Originally posted by elricko

Why get all so excited and expectant pre-match, this is a competent, working man's team , with not a great deal of forward skill and creativity. The facts are we could not beat a third -rate Honduran team--their first team would bury Canada in a WCQ match,and to think someone here predicted 3-0 to Canada!!!!!

Where are all the Sutton boo-boys now , because he played very well today, and very bravely --saved at least two goals when sheer speed allowed their forwards into the box.

I believe we had 8 corners..and they were badly taken corners...what a waste....we had a free kick near the end, that Klukowski and another player really messed up.

The ref booked 2 Hondurans early on, both harshly I thought,but those players had to be careful for the remainder of the match ,and I think I would have given a penalty in the 2 nd. minute against Stalteri..he was lucky, as he tugged the player's shoulder in the box.

There were good signs from this squad,they work well together, play a fairly fast passing game,but the quality is not there,even JDG is not up to his best...it's that simple,the quality is not there..otherwise all the world's clubs would be lining up to grab these players...and they are not..and I am a Gillingham supporter who was born in Gillingham 64 years ago.......but do not see a huge line-up to buy Jackson.

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Has the BEAST finally resurfaced to the forum?

quote:Originally posted by elricko

Why get all so excited and expectant pre-match, this is a competent, working man's team , with not a great deal of forward skill and creativity. The facts are we could not beat a third -rate Honduran team--their first team would bury Canada in a WCQ match,and to think someone here predicted 3-0 to Canada!!!!!

Where are all the Sutton boo-boys now , because he played very well today, and very bravely --saved at least two goals when sheer speed allowed their forwards into the box.

I believe we had 8 corners..and they were badly taken corners...what a waste....we had a free kick near the end, that Klukowski and another player really messed up.

The ref booked 2 Hondurans early on, both harshly I thought,but those players had to be careful for the remainder of the match ,and I think I would have given a penalty in the 2 nd. minute against Stalteri..he was lucky, as he tugged the player's shoulder in the box.

There were good signs from this squad,they work well together, play a fairly fast passing game,but the quality is not there,even JDG is not up to his best...it's that simple,the quality is not there..otherwise all the world's clubs would be lining up to grab these players...and they are not..and I am a Gillingham supporter who was born in Gillingham 64 years ago.......but do not see a huge line-up to buy Jackson.

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quote:Originally posted by Rudi

The problem is, of course, that the entire region is far more developed now than it was 15 years ago. I don't know if that 1993 team would get as far in WCQ now as they did then, but that's all guesswork.

Certainly there were some incredible standout talents on that team, but as you say the depth is better now than it was then.

Regardless, Canada was "more well off" then because it faced far weaker opponents. I'd argue that the Canada team that flamed out of WCQ last year would walk through CONCACAF circa 1993, except Mexico who would still be formidable.

This.

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It's funny that a discussion about the Canada-Honduras Gold Cup match

as morphed into a discussion about the Voyageurs' whipping boy, Geoff Aunger.

Perhaps time to retire this thread? (Or is it pure entertainment at this point?)

Just wondering ... ;)

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