GC - July 18th - Canada vs. Honduras

[bettermirror]

Macksam: What exactly about Simpson's performance did you like?

Schafer: I guess I wasn't exactly saying "Simpson is our Beckham." I am a big Beckham fan, so that would be a major applaud from me to Simpson. Just saying, Josh can deliver with accuracy from wide areas - but he can't dribble past a defender, can't head (except his own into a Honduran defender!! Great effort JOSH!!), can't tackle, can't use his (right) foot. I know the value of having a lefty on the left. But Nakajima or Peters would have given us so much more pace.

[schafer]

quote:Originally posted by bettermirror

Schafer: I guess I wasn't exactly saying "Simpson is our Beckham." I am a big Beckham fan, so that would be a major applaud from me to Simpson. Just saying, Josh can deliver with accuracy from wide areas - but he can't dribble past a defender, can't head (except his own into a Honduran defender!! Great effort JOSH!!), can't tackle, can't use his (right) foot. I know the value of having a lefty on the left. But Nakajima or Peters would have given us so much more pace.

Ahh, okay. I agree with that assessment then, and perhaps the most worrying thing is that Simpson appears to be essentially the same player he was in the 05 GC, unfortunately. (Although I seem to remember reading about him playing up front a bit for Kaiserslautern, maybe he could be an emergency depth player up top or something?)

[The Beaver]

quote:Originally posted by bettermirror

Macksam: What exactly about Simpson's performance did you like?

Schafer: I guess I wasn't exactly saying "Simpson is our Beckham." I am a big Beckham fan, so that would be a major applaud from me to Simpson. Just saying, Josh can deliver with accuracy from wide areas - but he can't dribble past a defender, can't head (except his own into a Honduran defender!! Great effort JOSH!!), can't tackle, can't use his (right) foot. I know the value of having a lefty on the left. But Nakajima or Peters would have given us so much more pace.

Simpson is loaded with pace, what are you talking about. And he beat his defender on a number of occasions, but more importantly he got crosses in. You don't need to skin the defender every time just to get a cross in. As for heading, he had one opportunity, and it was one of our best chances to score. I am not a Simpson apologist--I was not particulary impressed with his early run outs--but he was very good in this game and if he can continue to develop his close skills in Turkey, he will prove a very good option on the left flank. He and Kluka had some decent chemistry and understanding.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Eric

My comment is not ignorant at all, is based on observing an experience player like Staltieri make the same mistake over and over again. Yes, I agree that he's positioning is very good, he's ball control is good too and so is he's passing but you are forgetting that a CB's main job is to win the one v ones with the CFs. He is an experience player and he should know better than having his hands all over defenders inside the box, the referee was garbage of course but he made up with that call for that call he didn't make in the first 3 minutes of the game when Staltiery committed an other penalty by doing the same thing. I know Jakovic made a huge mistake and I know he had a lousy game but his excuse is that he's young and this game was a learning curve for him. I've seen mature central defenders committing these kind of fouls as they get older because their timing is not there any more, it's only natural that time catches up with you and your body won't respond as quickly as it used to and at that level a fraction of a second counts for a lot.

First of all Stalteri is not a CB and if he is defending one on one in the box then one of the CB'c has probably screwed up or is out of position. In this play, for example, Jakovic is out of position and not covering anyone so Stalteri is forced to take on the central forward in the box. Then of course Jakovic whiffs on the clearance. Stalteri has Martinez covered pretty well and Martinez is forced to resort to a bicycle kick to have any sort of opportunity. There is absolutely no foul on the play. There was also no penalty in the 3rd minute, simply a diving Honduran.

When we play teams like Honduras with CONCACAF refs our defenders have a dilemma. Do they use their hands similarly to what defenders do in the rest of the world knowing that the Hondurans will dive like crazy and CONCACAF refs will award them penalties like crazy. However, refraining from using your hands at all also gives Honduras a huge advantage of giving their attackers more room and freedom while at the other end the Hondurans are mauling our attackers.

Stalteri is in my opinion underrated in that he does a good job defending even if he doesn't look pretty doing it. He has been criticized throughout his career in Europe by fans as a poor player yet always seems to stabilize the defence and lower the goals against wherever he goes. It seems we pretty much do the same thing with him here. Nevertheless, he does make the occassional screw up and it is time to look for his successor in the position. However, I will state once again that while it is fair to criticize him when he does make a mistake, it is unfair and ignorant to criticize for things he can't control like diving Hondurans and corrupt/incompetent refs. Additionally if you are going to criticize him try and find out what position he plays. The whole paragraph above is a critique of how he should perform as a central defender when he is and has been a right back for over a decade now (and before that was a striker not a CB).

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by The Beaver

Simpson is loaded with pace, what are you talking about. And he beat his defender on a number of occasions, but more importantly he got crosses in. You don't need to skin the defender every time just to get a cross in. As for heading, he had one opportunity, and it was one of our best chances to score. I am not a Simpson apologist--I was not particulary impressed with his early run outs--but he was very good in this game and if he can continue to develop his close skills in Turkey, he will prove a very good option on the left flank. He and Kluka had some decent chemistry and understanding.

I agree. Simpson has his flaws but he got by the defender or got a decent cross into the box more often than not. He is inconsistent and has off games but I thought he was one of our best and most dangerous players yesterday. I also thought he was much improved over 2005 when he had speed but didn't know what to do with the ball once he got into an attacking position. Hopefully he will learn a lot playing in Turkey and become an even stronger player.

[Macksam]

quote:Originally posted by bettermirror

Macksam: What exactly about Simpson's performance did you like?

I liked his link play with Klukowski. Plus, his crossing was admirable to say the least.

[Watchmen]

It was nice to see Canada keep playing while Honduran players rolled around on the ground faking injuries. This should become standard procedure for Canada anytime they play CONCACAF opponents. As well, when the other team kicks the ball out to stop play, Canada should forget about giving the ball back.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by guppy

It's pointless. Can't reform the Mafia by complaining to it. Canada just has to get better, they have to be good enough that they can overcome the bad-calls.

Well said. The only way to overcome CONCACAF foibles is to stop complaining and focus on getting better, the USA realised this a long time ago.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Well said. The only way to overcome CONCACAF foibles is to stop complaining and focus on getting better, the USA realised this a long time ago.

What the USA realized was to take over the organization, put a puppet leader from the Carribean in place who will take most of the heat for the corruption and get all the benefits from this. Not only does the US get a lot of corrupt reffing decisions in its favour, look at how they always get an easy draw in WCQ. For F-ucks sake the continental championship is held every time in the US and set up even before the corrupt reffing to make sure the US will be in the final. None of this stuff is a coincidence. The CONCACAF strategy of the US is remarkably similar to what they do when they bring "democracy" to certain countries.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Lord Bob

My opinion is that Stalteri did have a hand on Martinez. Martinez had a hand on Stalteri as well, and neither was enough to really influence the play. It was the sort of utterly inconsequential hand play that happens on every high cross into the area. Run the replays of Canada's crosses and corners and see that the Hondurans had just many hands on Canadian strikers. And there's nothing wrong with that.

As an old defender, if I ever got that call against me, I would probably black out and come to thirty minutes later with my hands covered in blood and surrounded by shocked teammates. It was an atrocious and indefensible call.

(As was the referee's call to randomly stop play when Canada had possession and a Honduran had been rolling around after a dive for the last minute and a half. He essentially made that up - he had no right to stop play there and no right to strip Canada of possession and impose a drop ball.)

.... and then the Hondurans boot it all the way down field to our keeper meaning more time wasting!!!

db

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by The Beaver

As for honour, Honduras didn't really do anything much here that was dishonourable. yes, Chavez was pathetic, but we drew as many fouls as they did. What sucked was that the official made a terrible, incorrect call. That had nothing to do with Honduras' honor.

I dunno Beav. I consider the incredible number of Honduran dives and faked injuries to be very dishonourable. Cheating and fakery is dishonourable!

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

What the USA realized was to take over the organization, put a puppet leader from the Carribean in place who will take most of the heat for the corruption and get all the benefits from this. Not only does the US get a lot of corrupt reffing decisions in its favour, look at how they always get an easy draw in WCQ. For F-ucks sake the continental championship is held every time in the US and set up even before the corrupt reffing to make sure the US will be in the final. None of this stuff is a coincidence. The CONCACAF strategy of the US is remarkably similar to what they do when they bring "democracy" to certain countries.

And they managed to do all this with just one vote? Has it ever crossed your mind that nobody else hosts because without the large ex-pat communities that are present in the United States it would be tough to consistently draw large crowds elsewhere and the rest of CONCACAF actually prefers the quality of the facilities in the United States to spending close to a month somewhere like Haiti? One championship and two semi-final appearances in the last decade is not bad for a country that has failed to make the hex three times running. Time to tone down the conspiracy theories and focus on how to improve Canadian soccer, in my opinion.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Eric

My comment is not ignorant at all, is based on observing an experience player like Staltieri make the same mistake over and over again. Yes, I agree that he's positioning is very good, he's ball control is good too and so is he's passing but you are forgetting that a CB's main job is to win the one v ones with the CFs. He is an experience player and he should know better than having his hands all over defenders inside the box, the referee was garbage of course but he made up with that call for that call he didn't make in the first 3 minutes of the game when Staltiery committed an other penalty by doing the same thing. I know Jakovic made a huge mistake and I know he had a lousy game but his excuse is that he's young and this game was a learning curve for him. I've seen mature central defenders committing these kind of fouls as they get older because their timing is not there any more, it's only natural that time catches up with you and your body won't respond as quickly as it used to and at that level a fraction of a second counts for a lot.

You are blaming him for making a mistake on the play on which the penalty was called even though it is generally acknowledged that he did nothing wrong with even the Honduran saying he didn't think it was a penalty!

That's nonsense.

[Tintin]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

What the USA realized was to take over the organization, put a puppet leader from the Carribean in place who will take most of the heat for the corruption and get all the benefits from this. Not only does the US get a lot of corrupt reffing decisions in its favour, look at how they always get an easy draw in WCQ. For F-ucks sake the continental championship is held every time in the US and set up even before the corrupt reffing to make sure the US will be in the final. None of this stuff is a coincidence. The CONCACAF strategy of the US is remarkably similar to what they do when they bring "democracy" to certain countries.

Excellent post. These people who say that the USA learned how to get past all the BS in CONCACAF haven't been paying much attention. The US didn't learn to overcome bad calls, the bad calls mysteriously wafted away into the atmosphere. Look at how Canada went out of the last Gold Cup. Another phantom call to screw us out of the tying goal and which gave the Yanks a free ride.

To people who say this is two tournaments in a row, this has been going on for the whole twenty years or so that I've been following football in this country. I remember a WCQ in Panama that was played on a pitch worse than a city park in the middle of August in Vancouver (for people back east, imagine a street full of pot holes after the snow melts). Anyway, dangerous pitch aside, I remember Pesky standing on the goal line before a corner was taken. He was sandwiched by two mammoth Panamanians. One of them blatantly elbowed Pesch in the face, and what does the ref do? He gives Pesch a straight red. This is nothing new whatsoever. This crap has been going on forever, and for some reason I keep coming back for more torture. The only difference is that our players are better now on average and Stephen Hart is the Stephen Hawking of football management compared to Lendarduzzi.

To Puskas: I think you need to get your medication adjusted. Yes, Canada didn't put the ball in the net, but neither did the Hondos. Canada controlled the game. Honduras had a few chances, but only on counter attacks, which is all they can do because of their speed combined with an almost complete lack of possession. What we are complaining about is not just the one phantom call, but all the others which have gone against Canada over the years. As for your statement about this sort of thing happening much more in Europe...HA HA HA HA HA HA. You should be getting paid for writing that sort of humour.

To Puskas and others: Once again, this is not one call we're complaining about. Can anyone recall ONCE, just ONCE when Canada was gifted a goal or the opposition was screwed while playing against us?

To people who wonder why our players don't learn to dive: The simple reason is the maple leaf on the shirt. Being a cheating little bastard is not the Canadian way.

As for people who say Martinez or whatever his name is didn't do anything wrong, it was the ref: I mentioned this already, but celebrating the way he did when he was gifted a penalty shows what the Hondos think about sportsmanship.

Yes, we did not put the ball in the net, but again neither did they. Yes, we need to improve, but there is obvious corruption in CONCACAF. How did Australia manage to move to Asia and how did Israel manage to move to Europe? I would love Canada to go through CONMEBOL or even UEFA. We'd stand just as much chance qualifying for the WC in Europe as we do in CONCACAF. To improve and play a few good games and finish at or near the top of a European group seems much more likely than getting past the corruption of CONCACAF.

I would really like to thank the players who show up and play for Canada. It's so hard for us as fans to endure this when we know what's going to happen before the match even starts. I can't imagine what the players have to go through.

[psychler]

quote:Originally posted by Eric

There you go, some people here probably think that the honorable thing to do by Martinez should have been missing the penalty shot to prove that he is an honorable man.

Eric, the point was that the player was willing to concede they were gifted a BS goal from a BS call. We are not the only ones who feel the Hondurans were fortunate to get that result on the evening.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Tintin

Excellent post. These people who say that the USA learned how to get past all the BS in CONCACAF haven't been paying much attention. The US didn't learn to overcome bad calls, the bad calls mysteriously wafted away into the atmosphere. Look at how Canada went out of the last Gold Cup. Another phantom call to screw us out of the tying goal and which gave the Yanks a free ride.

To people who say this is two tournaments in a row, this has been going on for the whole twenty years or so that I've been following football in this country. I remember a WCQ in Panama that was played on a pitch worse than a city park in the middle of August in Vancouver (for people back east, imagine a street full of pot holes after the snow melts). Anyway, dangerous pitch aside, I remember Pesky standing on the goal line before a corner was taken. He was sandwiched by two mammoth Panamanians. One of them blatantly elbowed Pesch in the face, and what does the ref do? He gives Pesch a straight red. This is nothing new whatsoever. This crap has been going on forever, and for some reason I keep coming back for more torture. The only difference is that our players are better now on average and Stephen Hart is the Stephen Hawking of football management compared to Lendarduzzi.

To Puskas: I think you need to get your medication adjusted. Yes, Canada didn't put the ball in the net, but neither did the Hondos. Canada controlled the game. Honduras had a few chances, but only on counter attacks, which is all they can do because of their speed combined with an almost complete lack of possession. What we are complaining about is not just the one phantom call, but all the others which have gone against Canada over the years. As for your statement about this sort of thing happening much more in Europe...HA HA HA HA HA HA. You should be getting paid for writing that sort of humour.

To Puskas and others: Once again, this is not one call we're complaining about. Can anyone recall ONCE, just ONCE when Canada was gifted a goal or the opposition was screwed while playing against us?

To people who wonder why our players don't learn to dive: The simple reason is the maple leaf on the shirt. Being a cheating little bastard is not the Canadian way.

As for people who say Martinez or whatever his name is didn't do anything wrong, it was the ref: I mentioned this already, but celebrating the way he did when he was gifted a penalty shows what the Hondos think about sportsmanship.

Yes, we did not put the ball in the net, but again neither did they. Yes, we need to improve, but there is obvious corruption in CONCACAF. How did Australia manage to move to Asia and how did Israel manage to move to Europe? I would love Canada to go through CONMEBOL or even UEFA. We'd stand just as much chance qualifying for the WC in Europe as we do in CONCACAF. To improve and play a few good games and finish at or near the top of a European group seems much more likely than getting past the corruption of CONCACAF.

I would really like to thank the players who show up and play for Canada. It's so hard for us as fans to endure this when we know what's going to happen before the match even starts. I can't imagine what the players have to go through.

A very good post but in regards to Israel moving to UEFA, that was a political move.

One can't see Israel having to play a match in Iran. They probably wouldn't even let them into the country ... and it was only a few months ago that Bahrain banned an Israeli tennis player.

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by Tintin

To people who say this is two tournaments in a row, this has been going on for the whole twenty years or so that I've been following football in this country. I remember a WCQ in Panama that was played on a pitch worse than a city park in the middle of August in Vancouver (for people back east, imagine a street full of pot holes after the snow melts). Anyway, dangerous pitch aside, I remember Pesky standing on the goal line before a corner was taken. He was sandwiched by two mammoth Panamanians. One of them blatantly elbowed Pesch in the face, and what does the ref do? He gives Pesch a straight red. This is nothing new whatsoever. This crap has been going on forever, and for some reason I keep coming back for more torture.

You are absolutely correct. I think the only reason we did not get screwed in the 2000 Gold Cup, was NOBODY expected us to beat Colombia in the final.

How about the second last World Cup Qualifying round in Edmonton, when the untouched Honduran slipped in the water and Mark Watson, who was standing 5 ft from him, was red carded.......we could go on forever with examples (and there were numerous in that match alone).

It's no longer reasonable to try and dismiss these bogus calls on poor officiating. We have been doing that for decades and it is truly pathetic. Even our players are publicly stating the obvious ! Our players deserve better and so do we, the fans.

By the way, I respect Martinez for having the balls to be honest about the bogus call.

[canadianfoot]

How do you get 8 out of 10 Gold Cups on US soil? And Co-Host the remaining 2? Ask Jack Warner.......

Canada should lobby all small CONCACAF countries to organise the next Gold Cup. Have a Public Draw LIVE on TV(CBC,SRC,SportsNet)

Maybe then we will get thru.

When we play Honduras have a El Salvadorian ref & viceversa. When we play the US have a ref brought in from IRAN, I will pay for his flight and hotel :-)

[Cheeta]

quote:Originally posted by psychler

Eric, the point was that the player was willing to concede they were gifted a BS goal from a BS call. We are not the only ones who feel the Hondurans were fortunate to get that result on the evening.

Yeah, Martinez can't be held responsible for a ref's mistake. Don't think anyone should expect him to be.

If he's gifted a penalty, he's gifted a penalty. It's not down to him to correct the mistake of another.

Now if he dives to try to draw a penalty? Well, that's another thing altogether. Didn't see that in this instance.

[RJB]

Two years straight, in really sour fashion. Where is the CSA on this matter?

[TOcanadafan]

quote:Originally posted by Macksam

I thought Simpson had his best game.

I thought Simpson had a better game against Costa Rica when he dribbled past the defender on almost every occasion. Still a solid performance yesterday.

[Toronto MB]

My sober diagnosis:

We were unlucky on the penalty call, but I thought Stalteri could have been penalised in the box earlier when he put a hand on the attacker's shoulder and simulataneously crossed legs to bring him down.

The penalty was a phantom call, but Stalteri did have a hold on his arm and the ref will cling to that.

That being said, a championship team finds a way to overcome a 1-0 with over 55 minutes to play and we didn't do that.

My initial concern was that other than Gerba, we had no-one super likely to pop up with the ability to score when needed, and this proved to be our undoing.

This is CONCACAF boys, we can continue to feel hard done by at every major tournament or we can accept the reality, and find a way to get results.

Overall a positive tournament for Canada, put some pride back in the shirt. I was impressed with the progress of Johnson and Simpson on the flanks. Are midfield trio of Hutchinson, Bernier and JDG were a force. Our back-line played with rejuvenated strength, and I think those four will be at the helm for the next 2-3 years, those who think they will discard Stalteri are wrong. And, other than one error in a meaningless game, Greg Sutton stood in very well. But, of course, Lars has every right to reclaim that spot, and he should do.

For now, we continue to lack an international quality game-breaker up front. Ali is a force on the ball, and a poacher, but he is not a game-changer. Simeon Jackson made a good debut at this tournament, and if he can find a way to compete more effectively with the physical play, he will have a continued role to play with us.

But we have no Suazo, Donovan, Dempsey or Vela in our program. That is the unfortunate truth.

Maybe a young David Hoillet may still become part of our team, we'll see.

Hart must stay on now, and this works out well for everyone involved.

My heart goes out to the boys and the CSA delegation for such a hard-fought tournament. And still an impressive 4-1-1 since Hart came back in.

Congrats, and let's build on this showing.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

Yeah, Martinez can't be held responsible for a ref's mistake. Don't think anyone should expect him to be.

If he's gifted a penalty, he's gifted a penalty. It's not down to him to correct the mistake of another.

Now if he dives to try to draw a penalty? Well, that's another thing altogether. Didn't see that in this instance.

Well, a player has turned down a penalty on at least one occasion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu-3m51qdLs

BTW, for a chuckle re penalties:

[canadianfoot]

When was the last(if any) tournament organized for our senior side in Canada by the CSA? Like a 4teams roundrobin format? Are the costs that exhorbitant? Wouldn't the CSA be able to recoupe the expenses with tickets, concession & TV rights? I mean screw that invite the guys we always have a tought time beating.

Honduras

El Salvador

Nicaragua

The Voyageurs would have to handle the supports group & manage ticket sales so that we don't endup with 15 000 supporters for the other team.

I am sure some Telecom, TV & other sponsors could be found.

[tmcmurph]

quote:Originally posted by teddym

I thought the Honduran keeper Escober was a rock, whereas Sutton had nothing to do (okay, two shots). What a rock!

If he doesn't accurately time his sprints and get to the 2 through balls that were at the feet of the Honduran players it would be 3-0. I've been critical of Sutton in the previous games (rightly so) but last night he saved a couple and gave us a chance to tie it. He didn't misplay the ball, he distributed it good, was in good position and came off the line like a scalded jackrabbit twice.

Goalie is not like other positions in soccer. The keeper will only touch the ball very few times on shots on net (5-10 a game) but if he messes up even a fraction it's a blowout. Give credit where it is due and Sutton deserves credit for a good game last night.