Why are the Americans so much better?

[trueviking]

So...ive been watching the confederations cup and wondering how it is that the americans are so much better than us...we struggle to beat minnows and they are regulars in the world cup, consistently ranked 50 spots ahead of us.

is it a matter of them getting to play more because they are the USA?...is it a matter of teams being afraid of the mighty americans?...is there an undue respect that is given to them because of who they are?

is it that they have somehow figured out how to manhandle the central american teams in concacaf, which then allows them more competition abroad snowballing into a better team and higher ranking?

if we compare the make up of the rosters of canada and the US, there is little to choose between them...in fact, on paper you might opt for canada....it certainly doesnt look like the difference between a top 20 team and a side in the third world of the sport.

compare the american roster for the confederations cup final with a hypothetical canadian full strength roster...in the top 5 leagues (england, spain, italy, germany and france) the USA have 4 players while we have 6 (although they had 2 from germany missing)....the others seem to be about level.

USA

England (1) – 3

France (1) – 1

Sweden (1) - 1

Denmark (1) - 1

Belgium (1) - 1

England (2)- 1

Spain (2)- 1

MLS – 5

Canada

England (1) – 1

Spain (1) - 1

Germany (1) – 4

Denmark (1) - 3

Belgium (1) – 1

Holland (1) - 1

Germany (2) - 1

MLS – 2

you guys are smarter than me...any thoughts on why they are so much better than us?

[redhat]

Keys to USA: Money, time, and effort.

Money: they spend on development, the number of quality matches, and their own league

Time: it took time. A monumental effort on major development since USA 1994. And they

were WILLING to hire the best foreigners to train everyone(coaches, trainers, systems).

Even at USA94 they had Bora M. as their coach. They also accepted that they need clubs

to develop players ... professional clubs, not amateur ones. Most of their Euro players

have started in MLS.

Effort: they have not exactly much success at the World Cup (only quarters)... yet.

The US is determined to win, and would market themselves to do so, for both men and women.

They probably travel first class, and the U.S. would try to retain all Americans to

play for their national teams (with very few exceptions). They even have the Gold Cup

tournament held pretty much at home. Anything to be successful.

The Canadian MNT, I believe, is just as talented. But it needs more of the above.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Ten times the population is something to bear in mind in this discussion. How we do relative to Australia might be a fairer comparison even though it is certainly true that Canadian soccer was stronger than American soccer as recently as 20 years ago. The difference since then has been the hundreds of millions of dollars sunk into MLS and the emergence of the NCAA as a viable route to pro level soccer. A player like Mike Grella would probably have been laughed at as recently as a decade ago if he had tried to get a trial with a club like Leeds United based on his play at US college level.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by dsqpr

.

3. Quality. You can point at the leagues in which the players play, but their better players are nevertheless a fair bit better than ours.

I would say that they have greater quantity of top quality than we have. I do believe that our top two or maybe three can compare to their top two or maybe three.

But there is massive drop off beyond that. In Goalkeeping, for example, there is a gap the size of the Grand Canyon. Comparatively, things are a little but not much better for us at the forward position.

This can be explained to some extent by population and climate but that would be too simplistic. Just about every single player on that team was developed in MLS or is playing in MLS. Off the top of my head, only Charlie Davis and Gooch Onyewu have no link to MLS. Whereas we have too many players scattered all over Europe and playing in places that we will never get to see. So we cant evaluate them.

Greater depth means that you can be selective and look for much more well rounded players to put in your line sheet. Take the backlines for example. Theirs is so much more versatile than ours. There were times when we ooh'ed and ahh'ed watching Marvell Wynne in the past two years, yet he didn't even see the pitch for them.

In the last WCQ, teams just keyed in on Deguzman and when he was taken out of the game, our offensive complexion changed.

A better question might be, how come we cant beat Honduras.

[Cheeta]

Keeping with the nearly "All-Winnipeg" nature of this topic;

They (USA) have spent at least 15,000x the money (both public & private) on developing and promoting domestic soccer over the last decade that we (Canada) have. Where and why and to what effect is open to debate. The scale is massive and no matter how incompetent the effort something good has no choice but to come out of it.

Given that and the fact they outnumber us about 10 to 1 and there you are.

Everything else being equal I honestly don't think our 1st team and their 1st team are that far apart. The USA does however have massive depth compared to us. I don't mean to suggest its especially better, though I think in some areas it is. Absolutely. The advantage is that their depth is broad enough that they can more-or-less hold true to a playing philosophy/program using their B players whereas we usually find ourselves forced into greater accommodations when certain players become unavailable just because the replacement players we have to use force that accommodation.

The USA had a good run in this tourney. They stumbled into the knock out phase and beat Spain. Made a go of it today, for a while at least, but the score line in the end flattered them.

[Juby]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

I would say that they have greater quantity of top quality than we have. I do believe that our top two or maybe three can compare to their top two or maybe three.

But there is massive drop off beyond that. In Goalkeeping, for example, there is a gap the size of the Grand Canyon. Comparatively, things are not much better for us at the forward position.

It's confusing that these are probably our weakness' cause usually we don't have problems developing raw athlete's (which a little more key for big keepers and strikers) in sports. I always thought that was one of the American's advantages, to notch athletic training, but short comings on the creative side. realistically I would expect us to keep up with the americans / 10 in tecnically gifted (not technique really, but technical specs) but we seem to be producing a glut of clever and/or left footed lads. Not too say we don't have typical athletes but they aren't our best or a theme.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

Absolutely. The advantage is that their depth is broad enough that they can more-or-less hold true to a playing philosophy/program using their B players whereas we usually find ourselves forced into greater accommodations when certain players become unavailable just because the replacement players we have to use force that accommodation.

Yes that is so true. Depth means lots of things. We are in a position where we pretty much have to play what we have regardless of style or philosophy. Which makes our team harder to coach.

Another thing that depth does is create a competitive environment and culture within the team. That helps team building and creates a sense and achievement in wearing the colours. That's the best kind of preparation you can have. With us, its too easy to rest on your laurels for some players.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Juby

It's confusing that these are probably our weakness' cause usually we don't have problems developing raw athlete's (which a little more key for big keepers and strikers) in sports. I always thought that was one of the American's advantages, to notch athletic training, but short comings on the creative side. realistically I would expect us to keep up with the americans / 10 in tecnically gifted (not technique really, but technical specs) but we seem to be producing a glut of clever and/or left footed lads. Not too say we don't have typical athletes but they aren't our best or a theme.

But I am not sure that we have been attracting the best athletes into the sport of soccer in this country. I think that a lot of them have been quitting the sport and pursuing other sports. Probably because there wasn't the professional opportunities that there were in Hockey, football and baseball.

[Guest speedmonk42]

Almost 2/3 of the entire population of Canada play in leagues in the US.

2 Divisions of pro soccer lots of opportunity.

Massive college incentive which may divert to pro.

Weather in the south.

They have guys with more cool hair than we do.

[Guest speedmonk42]

Almost 2/3 of the entire population of Canada play in leagues in the US.

2 Divisions of pro soccer lots of opportunity.

Massive college incentive which may divert to pro.

Weather in the south.

They have guys with more cool hair than we do.

[Soju]

^wrong about the hair, we had Bircham's mohawk and still have some dreadlocks AND cornrows.

[Tuscan]

Wasn't the USSF somewhat reformed after WC94? If not reformed, then their strategy and mission refocused to create a healthier organization. WC94 did them a world of good.

[Guest speedmonk42]

quote:Originally posted by Soju

^wrong about the hair, we had Bircham's mohawk and still have some dreadlocks AND cornrows.

Yeah, you are right.

Their hair has gone rather stale of late.

[youllneverwalkalone]

It's not that long ago that we were better than the US. At this time, we still had only a handful of professional clubs. The US and the rest of CONCACAF have left us in the dust, but I do believe MLS will replicate what the NASL meant for us. From '96 to '06 we had a few MLSers. Today we have half a dozen on TFC and half a dozen elsewhere. Even with just Vancouver, we'll easily double these numbers. If Montreal joins in 2011, there no reason we couldn't have between 30-40 MLSers. All of a sudden we have a player pool that, like the US, plays a consistent style and is familiar with one another. Even when Nana and Ethan Gage inevitably do go to Europe, they will have a stronger foundation to come back to.

Obviously from this post, I really believe MLS has a lot to do with it. I will say though, as much as I hate him, Landon Donovan is a once in a generation type player for them. Throw in Altidore and you have danger that we don't possess. At the same time, I would never trade our backline for theirs. Hopefully we can hold on to Hoilett and he can give us the offensive punch we need to play with the big boys.

[Swangardian]

quote:Originally posted by trueviking

So...ive been watching the confederations cup and wondering how it is that the americans are so much better than us...

Quite simply put, the Americans have a National Training Centre in Florida. Any youngsters who show promise are invited to attend high school there, train full time, play together, etc.

Also, they have more than 3 professional teams and at least 2 real domestic leagues.

[trueviking]

hmmm...

i am not sure about a few of the reasons...

"Quality. You can point at the leagues in which the players play, but their better players are nevertheless a fair bit better than ours."

other than in goal, i cant find any player on the american roster that is substantially better than his canadian opposite...would you trade friend and dero for altidore and davies?...deguzman, imhof and hutch for dempsey, donovan and clarke?...there is no great leap in talent.

here is their player pool...doesnt seem all that great to me...3/4 are from MLS. http://www.ussoccer.com/common/stContent.jsp_16-2009MNT.html

"the Americans have a National Training Centre in Florida and at least 2 real domestic leagues"

but in the end, with all of their money spent, greater population and their leagues.... they have not produced any more high calibre players for their national team than we have...yes they have way more depth in MLS calibre players, but they dont have any more players playing at the higher levels...they have a better infrastructure for sure but it hasnt translated into a large number of top players, just a large number of second tier players...why would the 11 guys on the field be better than us just because they have a whack of MLS guys behind them?

if england made half of their roster out of league one or championship players would they still be ranked 20th in the world like the americans are with that calibre of player?

"Depth. They've got far more of it than we do."

i also dont buy the depth argument...their depth is MLS calibre...all the MLS players in the world shouldnt translate into a top 20 rank....you can see in other sports that depth isnt really that important for the quality of a national team...in hockey the top 10 teams from canada would beat the top 10 teams from sweden, finland and czech 8 out of 10 times, but their top squad can beat ours with reasonable regularity...the same happens in basketball with the US.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by trueviking

hmmm...

i am not sure about a few of the reasons...

"Quality. You can point at the leagues in which the players play, but their better players are nevertheless a fair bit better than ours."

other than in goal, i cant find any player on the american roster that is substantially better than his Canadian opposite...would you trade friend and dero for altidore and davies?...deguzman, imhof and hutch for dempsey, donovan and clarke?...there is no great leap in talent.

here is their player pool...doesnt seem all that great to me...3/4 are from MLS. http://www.ussoccer.com/common/stContent.jsp_16-2009MNT.html

But how do you define higher calibre league than MLS when there is no objective measure to do so? Sounds to me like, your relying on hearsay from biased sources who refuse to give American soccer respect to begin with. If you think that the first division leagues in places like Denmark, Sweden and Norway is a step up in quality and prestige, then I would like to hear why. Because I had a hard time reaching that same conclusion when I browsed through the club rosters of clubs in those leagues and compared it MLS. I cant see why we reach those ( if any)conclusion if we go by name value and international caliber talent.

So when you say, " well their players are only in in MLS", be careful. Because we have had several players on our MNT pool ( even starters or boarder line starters on our MNT) who were cut or released by MLS teams and/or cant find a spot on MLS clubs, or are/were not MLS quality.

Also, Dero is not really a striker anymore. He plays more or less the same position and role that Donovan plays on their MNT's. So when I was referring to those two or three players that might be comparable to their core I was thinking of DeGuz, Dero and Atiba versus similar-role players on the US like Donovan, Bradley and Ricardo Clark. Dero vs Donovan; Bradley vs DeGuz; and Atiba vs Clark.

quote:Originally posted by trueviking

"the Americans have a National Training Centre in Florida and at least 2 real domestic leagues"

but in the end, with all of their money spent, greater population and their leagues.... they have not produced any more high calibre players for their national team than we have...yes they have way more depth in MLS calibre players, but they dont have any more players playing at the higher levels...they have a better infrastructure for sure but it hasnt translated into a large number of top players, just a large number of second tier players...why would the 11 guys on the field be better than us just because they have a whack of MLS guys behind them?

if england made half of their roster out of league one or championship players would they still be ranked 20th in the world like the americans are with that calibre of player?

But what is the basis of your point that I have highlighted about. I am gathering that your inferring that that MLS is CCC calibre. But what methodology leads you to derive to that conclusion. MLS team dont really play against CCC teams. MLS teams have only played against Premiership team to begin with. The only CCC that have crossed the atlantic to play in Canada have played against USL teams.

Also, you cant just look at what what leagues the players play in. You have to consider what roles that they play within their clubs and the skills that they are counter on for. For example, we may have a certain player in the EPL, but if he is not starting or not even dressing, then is your comparison still valid? Then, what about a players ability to influence a game, not everyone in the EPL is relied on to influence a game. Your assumption inferrs that everyone in the EPL is equal in quality.

I can think of a perfect example from our 2004 qualifying campaign. We had a USL player who was far more influential and valuable to us than a (an)other starter(s) who played in one of the top four leagues.

quote:Originally posted by trueviking

"Depth. They've got far more of it than we do."

i also dont buy the depth argument...their depth is MLS calibre...all the MLS players in the world shouldnt translate into a top 20 rank....

Why? Again I ask, how low do you rate MLS? Lets look at the 31 other nations that have qualified for the WC, how many of them would you say have a comparable domestic championship in terms of Infrastructure such a investors, stadia, sponsorship, salaries, quality of play, international talent... etc? Are you going to tell me that the African nations have the edge over MLS? Well, I saw Egypt play the US and I didn't even think it was close. Yet, they were the African champs and a pretty reputable side in that region.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Why? Again I ask, how low do you rate MLS? Lets look at the 31 other nations that have qualified for the WC, how many of them would you say have a comparable domestic championship in terms of Infrastructure such a investors, stadia, sponsorship, salaries, quality of play, international talent... etc? Are you going to tell me that the African nations have the edge over MLS?

True, African teams have no depth. But I think you are missing trueviking's point. He's not saying the Croatian league (for instance) is better than MLS, he's saying that Croatia's second-stringers are playing in better leagues than MLS. Their backups are playing in the German, French and English top divisions.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by Tuscan

Wasn't the USSF somewhat reformed after WC94? If not reformed, then their strategy and mission refocused to create a healthier organization. WC94 did them a world of good.

I'm of the cynical opinion that you could throw a kagillion dollars at the current CSA and it still wouldn't help our program 10, 15 or 20 years down the road. Perhaps headhunting a USSF person to review and reorganize the CSA may be a step in the right direction, I don't know.

The growing number of our guys in MLS is going to be very important to our MNT pool come the qualifying for 2014.

[Guest Ed]

Chuck Blazer, not the CSA, ODP's, money. In order of importance.

[Guest speedmonk42]

quote:Originally posted by BearcatSA

I'm of the cynical opinion that you could throw a kagillion dollars at the current CSA and it still wouldn't help our program 10, 15 or 20 years down the road. Perhaps headhunting a USSF person to review and reorganize the CSA may be a step in the right direction, I don't know.

The growing number of our guys in MLS is going to be very important to our MNT pool come the qualifying for 2014.

Uh... no. If you tripled the CSA's budget the impact would be astounding. Especially over 10, 15 or 20 years.

[amacpher]

I hate to keep harping on it, but I will again blame the World Cup qualifying format of CONCACAF for this. Canada just doesn't get enough games. Plain and simple. That's why the USA, Costa Rica, etc. play better than their constituent parts while Canada plays worse.

Yeah, there's the Gold Cup but a 2-week tournament against often second rate teams or second-string squads always played in the USA, isn’t the same as home-and-away matches spread-out over 12 months in games that really matter. There needs to be two HEXs not just one.

The fact that this issue is clearly a self-perpetuating one (bad results leads to fewer games -> playing worse as a team -> no longer seeded -> even worse result ...) means its really important to change the qualifying format soon.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by speedmonk42

Uh... no. If you tripled the CSA's budget the impact would be astounding. Especially over 10, 15 or 20 years.

As stated, mine is a cynical opinion. It just seems like there are too many agendas in the current organization which might lead to a lot of extra funds being squandered.

[DJones]

quote:Quite simply put, the Americans have a National Training Centre in Florida. Any youngsters who show promise are invited to attend high school there, train full time, play together, etc.

Also, they have more than 3 professional teams and at least 2 real domestic leagues.

This was something that was done a few years back and still do as the US get closer to major competitions like U17 and U20 World Cups. They use to house them at the IMG Academy but things have changed dramatically.

What they found was that they would pick 'the top 50" or so players and then realize that they were wrong and that there were better players out there. Players were missed and another group of players were brought in only to find that they missed even more players at a huge expense to US Soccer. They've now put this expense on to the 'Super" clubs and ultimately, the players parents.

I just brought this up in another soccer forum (http://www.takethepiss.com/forums/youth-soccer/15265-us-soccer-developmental-academy.html#post284284) on how the US will continue to progress. I attached a whack load of links throughout the write up so you can get a better understanding of the depth of their system but I can't seem to make it work on this forum without huge link addresses and ultimately boring readers even more than I all ready do! [:I]

This is the latest set up:

Today (this passed Saturday) was the start of the US Soccer Developmental Academy (http://ussda.demosphere.com/) playoffs in Browns Summit, North Carolina (15 field complex) for both U15/16 (late 92’s and early ’93) and U17/U18 (late 90’s and early 91’s – under 20’s????).

For those that don't follow youth soccer or haven't travelled south to play some of these mega teams in tournaments like Surf Cup or Dallas Cup, the USSDA is an academy league (like a junior soccer league) made up of the top club teams from around the US on the boys side. Clubs have to apply, then qualify through a pre-academy league. It's kind of like an exclusive boys club only allowing the biggest, most successful and most prestigous clubs to participate.

They play in a region or division (ie. Pacific Northwest Division) that covers anywhere from a state region (southern Cal or Texas) or a quite a few states (ie Wash/Oregen/NorCal). Most division have MLS youth teams in them (not always the top team believe it or not) and has two seperate age groups - U15/16 combined and U17/18 combined. It is a step up from Super Y-League and, incombination to their league season (starts in September), they play and host showcase tournaments where the top MLS and college scouts come to watch. They run combines (much like college football etc...), post scores on ESPN (yes, some 14 year old has a 39.4 inch vertical) and is where the best of the best play. They cannot play in any tournaments (like Surf or Dallas Cup) including state cups, regional championships and US Youth Championships! The cost is quite high - much in the range of playing for a top tier peewee spring hockey team. Parents drive from around the state to have their kid play for these teams and on their team webpages some players have their college recruiting resumes posted including GPA for potential college coaches and scouts to view.

As US Soccer doesn't run State teams (like our provincial teams), they do run ODP teams (Olympic Developmental Teams) but these teams are considered a step down and players cannot play USSDA and ODP in these specific age groups. Players can't even play for their high school teams. The feeling is State or ODP teams are too politically flawed, ODP recruits the coaches from these elite clubs anyways and the USSDA produces more players (anywhere from 20 to 30 players on a roster as well as reserve squads that play in the state/regional/national championships) than a state or ODP team. As well as 72 elite teams (with rumour of more than 20 new ones for next season) with more than one team from one state (Texas and So Cal have some of the top ranked teams in their nation in one age group) compared to the just 52 state or ODP teams with one team from each state including the very weak ones (ie. Alaska).

FYI:

The teams just south of us in Washington State, those teams we use to thump when we were younger on those soccer exchange thingys, did quite well in the league with 3 of 4 making the playoffs:

• U15/16

o Washington Premier – 2nd in Pacific Northwest Division, ranked 7th in nation, qualified for playoffs

o Crossfire FC – 3rd in Pacific Northwest Division, ranked 11th in nation, qualified for playoffs

• U17/18

o Crossfire FC - 1st in Pacific Northwest Division, ranked 7th in nation, qualified for playoffs

o Washington Premier - 7th in Pacific Northwest Division and DNQ for playoffs

Both Crossfire (6-2) and Washington Premier (3-1) won their games in the U15/16 age group . Arsenal FC from SoCal, ranked 2nd in the nation LOST their opening game to 31st ranked Cal Odyssey 3-0! Cal Odyssey play in the Northwest Division against Crossfire FC and Washington Premier.

Crossfire FC U17/18 tied their game 1-1 with Richmond Kickers.

We really need something like this in Canada for both the boys and girls run by the top, elite youth clubs in the country. Being a Select coach of one of the best U14 teams in BC, I know more about the teams south of us than any other club outside this province. That shouldn't be.

It would be nice to have a "soccer summit" of the top youth clubs in the country that could actually pull off the standard and commitment for something like this (charter clubs) and then a road trip to one of these events so we can see how big, competitive and outstanding these things are to run (and then copy it)!

We will continue to fall further and further until we sort out our +14 age groups and competing with these US teams that up until this time, competed and beat occassionally in US tournaments. No wonder the US is able to upset the big boys. In the next 10 years, beating Spain or Brazil may not be an upset!

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by DJones

I attached a whack load of links throughout the write up so you can get a better understanding of the depth of their system but I can't seem to make it work on this forum without huge link addresses and ultimately boring readers even more than I all ready do! [:I]

Well, I see that you (or this version of you) has only been on here for 13 posts, but I must say that I have very much enjoyed reading this one, regardless of length. Very informative.