Mo blames bad luck for woes

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

Yes let's all bow down at the great altar of hockey on a soccer messageboard and act as if our sport doesn't get taken seriously in a Canadian context. It's 2009 and it is TFC we are talking about. You guys are acting as if Bruno Hartrell had made a comment like that about players at the Lynx. Times have changed.

When your tongue has a bit more saliva on it, maybe you can answer the question of who it was who started the hockey-soccer analogy that has become a subject on this thread.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by finchster

Pressure is an excuse for losers anyway. All these players are professionals; if they want to go play in front of an empty stadium then they should go play semi pro somewhere

BINGO

Well Said

These players don't know pressure. Mo Johnston definitely knows that the kind of pressure felt in Toronto is nothing compared to what he dealt with in Scotland when we made the infamous switch.

The kind of pressure that a TFC audience heaps on a player is a tiny, itty bity fraction of what an underperforming player would feel in a real football country.

if a player can't handle a home crowd demanding a decent effort and a goal or two from a supposed striker, then they should hand in their kit, throw on a smock and go work at a Starbucks drivethrough.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

These players don't know pressure. Mo Johnston definitely knows that the kind of pressure felt in Toronto is nothing compared to what he dealt with in Scotland when we made the infamous switch.

The kind of pressure that a TFC audience heaps on a player is a tiny, itty bity fraction of what an underperforming player would feel in a real football country.

if a player can't handle a home crowd demanding a decent effort and a goal or two from a supposed striker, then they should hand in their kit, throw on a smock and go work at a Starbucks drivethrough.

I share the same opinion.

[jpg75]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

At no point have I worshiped Mo in this thread and a team that draws 20,000 spectators per game and has 16,000 season tickets sold is big time sports. You are the one who needs the reality check not me.

20,000 fans and 16,000 SSH's or not, TFC is still nowhere near the pressure cooker that the Leafs are and that was the point being made that you were refuting. If the players can't handle it here and can't turn things around mentally when they're not performing then there's something wrong with them and not the fans. Why is it Dichio and Guevara can rise to the occassion but others can't? Mo is just deflecting blame away from his teams inability to create and finish chances on to the fans when it's the team he built that can't mesh properly. That's reality. Or is it just bad luck?

BTW, other points made about Mo in this thread that are valid:

- He went after Julian De Guzman who at age 28 had about a 1% chance of accepting an offer.

- His journey to Brasil to watch Serie A games. He's not going to lure too many decent players away from a big Serie A club.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

...and the Voyageurs clique backs each other up as per usual. If Barrett and Buddle before him were feeling enough pressure that it was affecting their game and if that pressure would not exist to the same extent somewhere like Columbus, making a casual comment about something Brian Burke had said should have been innocuous stuff but how dare the foreign person with the strong accent compare soccer to hockey basically. Personally I couldn't care less about the Maple Leafs but from what I can see the odd time I do watch a game on HNIC they appear to have turned into some sort of corporate event where Bay Street types go simply to be seen and there is almost zero genuine passion from the fanbase nowadays unlike 20 or 30 years ago when it was more of a blue collar crowd at Maple Leaf Gardens. I don't think you'll see Leaf fans doing what RPB did after the Galaxy game outside the main entrance of the ACC any time soon.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by jpg75

BTW, other points made about Mo in this thread that are valid:

- He went after Julian De Guzman who at age 28 had about a 1% chance of accepting an offer.

- His journey to Brasil to watch Serie A games. He's not going to lure too many decent players away from a big Serie A club.

The first point might have some validity if JDG had not expressed a strong interest in playing for TFC one day.

Here's a picture taken at Saturday's game:-

and a rumour circulating on the RPB board from a poster who I think has a reasonable track record on inside info:-

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=14471

Think Duane Rollins might have hinted at this rumour as well in recent days but can't be bothered tracking down the link. Under the circumstances contacting the player's agent to see if a number can be agreed upon to make it happen doesn't seem like a wasted phone call to me.

On the second point how would getting a player from Brazil's Serie A be any different from getting Pablo Vitti from a big Argentinian club like Independiente?

Trading Marshall before his replacement was signed, sealed and delivered would be much more solid grounds for criticism. Just as if Lance Hornby wants to dredge up ancient history from season one he should maybe have focused on having Andrea Lombardo as the only cover for an injury prone striker like Danny Dichio and acquiring Ritchie Kotschau in the expansion draft when he had a broken leg. Signing Andy Welsh and Collin Samuel etc etc

[jpg75]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

...and the Voyageurs clique backs each other up as per usual. If Barrett and Buddle before him were feeling enough pressure that it was affecting their game and if that pressure would not exist to the same extent somewhere like Columbus, making a casual comment about something Brian Burke had said should have been innocuous stuff but how dare the foreign person with the strong accent compare soccer to hockey basically. Personally I couldn't care less about the Maple Leafs but from what I can see the odd time I do watch a game on HNIC they appear to have turned into some sort of corporate event where Bay Street types go simply to be seen and there is almost zero genuine passion from the fanbase nowadays unlike 20 or 30 years ago when it was more of a blue collar crowd at Maple Leaf Gardens. I don't think you'll see Leaf fans doing what RPB did after the Galaxy game outside the main entrance of the ACC any time soon.

This is the second time you've mentioned to me your distaste for the Voyageurs clique. You let it cloud your judgement sometimes, you hate being wrong and you won't drop an argument because you think the V's don't know anything and are a bunch of cheerleaders.

Real Leaf fans don't sit in the platinums that can be seen on TV, they sit in the upper bowl or get tickets from their work. They get drunk at the game and boo when the team plays like crap. They get on players that they feel are overpaid and underperforming. If Bryan McCabe had not been traded last fall you would been given a repeat performance of the Larry Murphy scapegoating. Real Leaf fans vent to the media by way of call-in shows, that fuels the media horde who probe and push the buttons of the underperformers. I was in the TFC dressing room in the media scrums in 2007 when the team had it's goalless streak and the questions levelled at the players were far from hardball.

[Canuck Oranje]

Only Vitti wouldn't have been considered a decent player anymore by Independiente because they let him go to FC Chornomorets Odessa on loan in 2008. His last meaningful goal in Argentina, from what I can tell, was in 2006. And players like that can be had without loan if you look in the right places.

[jpg75]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

The first point might have some validity if JDG had not expressed a strong interest in playing for TFC one day.

Here's a picture taken at Saturday's game:-

and a rumour circulating on the RPB board from a poster who I think has a reasonable track record on inside info:-

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=14471

Think Duane Rollins might have hinted at this rumour as well in recent days but can't be bothered tracking down the link. Under the circumstances contacting the player's agent to see if a number can be agreed upon to make it happen doesn't seem like a wasted phone call to me.

On the second point how would getting a player from Brazil's Serie A be any different from getting Pablo Vitti from a big Argentinian club like Independiente?

Trading Marshall before his replacement was signed, sealed and delivered would be much more solid grounds for criticism. Just as if Lance Hornby wants to dredge up ancient history from season one he should maybe have focused on having Andrea Lombardo as the only cover for an injury prone striker like Danny Dichio and acquiring Ritchie Kotschau in the expansion draft when he had a broken leg. Signing Andy Welsh and Collin Samuel etc etc

This isn't the first time Julian has watched a game at BMO. As for the rumour, i'll believe it when i see it. I really hope for the sake of the Canadian MNT that he doesn't sign with TFC.

There's more money in Brasil then there is in Argentina, that's why there's an influx of Argies in MLS as opposed to Brasilians. I guess the hope was that Mo would find some obscure Brasilian who's out of contract, bring him up here for a trial and sign him on the cheap. Instead we get a player on a loan deal (in hindsight we're fortunate), with little long-term benefit to the club if he's successful - unless there's a cheap buyout option attached.

Yes, there are numerous criticisms that could be applied to Mo, but the point in this thread is that he's making excuses and that's all i'm going to call him out on to keep the discussion relevant.

[VPjr]

BBTB....trust me...Julian is not signing with TFC. That "rumour" is beyond stupid. I can't believe it even there are 2 pages worth of posts on the subject on RPB. The man has a real offer from Benfica and other offers are coming. TFC is not even a bargaining chip. Could you imagine going into a negotiation with a European club and saying "by the way, if you don't give me what I want, I'm going to consider an offer from MLS". Once the people on the other side of the table stop laughing, they'll say "ok, you go ahead...clearly you are not the type of player we want here".

By the way, from what I'm told by an agent friend of mine, it is a bit harder to get players out of top division in Brazil than it is in Argentina because a) the Brazilian economy is far better and the top clubs are far more financially sound and Vitti was someone Independiente was actively trying to showcase for a possible move away from the club. As much as I like that player's skill level, I don't think he has that certain "something" to make it in Argentina's Primera.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

Only Vitti wouldn't have been considered a decent player anymore by Independiente because they let him go to FC Chornomorets Odessa on loan in 2008. His last meaningful goal in Argentina, from what I can tell, was in 2006. And players like that can be had without loan if you look in the right places.

Perhaps worth noting that Vitti also played for Rosario Central who are maybe not one of the giants of Argentinian soccer like River Plate or Boca Juniors but are still usually a big top tier club. Not sure what games Mo would have watched in Brazil but if he was watching a state league game maybe fringe players like Vitti would have been involved? Also worth noting that he could be looking at an older player like Blanco (yes I know he's Mexican), who might be looking for one last big pay day in another league. I don't think it is completely unreasonable for an MLS GM to be at a serie A team's game in a Brazilian context although I can definitely see the argument that he would be better off elsewhere in terms of finding the best bargains.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

Vitti was someone Independiente was actively trying to showcase for a possible move away from the club. As much as I like that player's skill level, I don't think he has that certain "something" to make it in Argentina's Primera.

That certain something being the ability to score goals.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

BBTB....trust me...Julian is not signing with TFC. That "rumour" is beyond stupid. I can't believe it even there are 2 pages worth of posts on the subject on RPB.

Seems like a long shot to me but bear in mind that a DP signed in the summer window would have their hit against the cap prorated to about 200k and the salary cap is expected to rise substantially in 2010 with the new CBA, which may make it easier to accomodate the DP salary moving forward. The timing at least seems right for that sort of signing. Beyond that although a player would not normally turn down Benfica for TFC you do get the occasional Landon Donovan type who greatly prefers to play in their home town if the money is right and we are talking about TFC and MLS here not the Lynx and USL-D1. I would expect TFC's GM to know which CMNT players might fall into that category.

[ag futbol]

Interesting note, right now TFC have completed 14 games and sit in 8th spot. Some other teams slightly down the table from TFC have played anwhere from 1-3 games less. With a long road stretch coming up July - August, TFC needs points again against RBNY next weekend to stay ahead.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

I can assure you, without a shadow of a doubt, that JDG is not Landon Donovan and, although ONE DAY he might be inclined to give MLS a try, that time is not now.

Julian is an ambitious player. MLS is not a league where players with ambition choose to play.

Hell, I don't believe that Donovan really want to be in MLS anymore.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

MLS is not a league where players with ambition choose to play.

Maybe a bit too sweeping? How would Dwayne De Rosario fit in in that regard?

[VPjr]

^ Yes, it is a tiny bit too sweeping. some young players are using MLS as a stepping stone to bigger/better things.

However, a 28 year old who has played in the top league in the world and who has legit interest from even bigger clubs in Europe would have to have lost all ambition to choose MLS over staying in Europe.

As for DeRo, there are a variety of reasons why he never made it in Europe.

[El Hombre]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

Seems like a long shot to me but bear in mind that a DP signed in the summer window would have their hit against the cap prorated to about 200k and the salary cap is expected to rise substantially in 2010 with the new CBA, which may make it easier to accomodate the DP salary moving forward. The timing at least seems right for that sort of signing. Beyond that although a player would not normally turn down Benfica for TFC you do get the occasional Landon Donovan type who greatly prefers to play in their home town if the money is right and we are talking about TFC and MLS here not the Lynx and USL-D1. I would expect TFC's GM to know which CMNT players might fall into that category.

Assuming for a moment that JdG might actually consider a move to MLS at this point in time, signing him as a DP is not really the best evidence to show that Mo knows what he's doing.

Actually, it gives further credence to the point that ag futbol has brought up here a couple times: Mo manages like a fantasy soccer manager. Assuming JdG comes over, TFC would have Guevara, De Rosario, Robinson and JdG (and Cronin and Harmse and Serioux...) all fighting for spots in the middle of midfield and yet have no width or strikers to speak of, not to mention holes in the back line.

Other than the fact that he is a sublime talent, targeting JdG this year, with that personnel already in place, makes no sense.

Also, the comment about the pressure of playing in Toronto wasn't an "innocuous casual comment" as you suggest, it was an excuse absolving Mo of responsibility.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by El Hombre

Assuming for a moment that JdG might actually consider a move to MLS at this point in time, signing him as a DP is not really the best evidence to show that Mo knows what he's doing.

If you are looking for an argument with that you will need to find somebody who has actually claimed that it was. The only point I addressed on that was whether spending time finding out whether he would return was wasted effort on his part. As stated earlier in the thread I would have thought stuff like trading Tyrone Marshall before his replacement had been secured, signing Andy Welsh on the strength of his performances in low key practice games against NCAA teams and claiming a player with a broken leg in the expansion draft would be better angles of attack but some people like to bump their gums without really knowing what they are talking about.

[ag futbol]

I can only hope to achieve the level of enlightenment of someone who compares Brasileirão starters to Pablo Vitti.

Even the marginal players in Series A regularly find spots in places like France, Holland, and all over the place because the talent pool is deep. Now maybe you could pull a something like Urawa did with Washington for DP, but you won’t find any squad players who are going to accept regular MLS money.

Ps. Argentina has plenty of mid table clubs that punch weight. River Plate finished near the bottom in one recent aperture / clausura season.

[jpg75]

^ That was the last Apertura i believe. The last home game in December had to have had the smallest crowd ever seen in the Monumental! FSC was showing another game and flashed over to the shot of the crowd pre-game and there must have been no more than a couple of thousand people at the stadium, like a Cleveland Indians game in the 80's at the old Municipal Stadium [:I]

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by ag futbol

I can only hope to achieve the level of enlightenment of someone who compares Brasileir#65533;o starters to Pablo Vitti.

As with El Hombre above you will need to find somebody who actually did that if you are looking for an argument.

quote:Ps. Argentina has plenty of mid table clubs that punch weight. River Plate finished near the bottom in one recent aperture / clausura season.

Are you really trying to give me a hard time for describing River Plate as one of the "giants of the Argentinian game"? Truly desperate stuff if you are trying to take me down a peg with that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_Atl%C3%A9tico_River_Plate#Titles

Professional Championships

First Division (33) record

* Campeonato Argentino: (12) 1932, 1936, 1937, 1941, 1942, 1945, 1947, 1952, 1953, 1955, 1956, 1957

* Metropolitano: (4) 1975, 1977, 1979, 1980

* Nacional: (3) 1975, 1979, 1981

* Liga Argentina: (2) 1985-86, 1989-90

* Torneo Apertura: (6) 1991, 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 1999

* Torneo Clausura: (6) 1997, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2008

On the bright side, the penny is maybe finally dropping that I am not in the least bit bothered by the idea of Mo Johnston being replaced by somebody better. That's the way elite level soccer works after all. It's a cut-throat meritocracy as Greg Sutton just found out. Last season I thought Bruce Arena was the obvious candidate when he was working a colour commentator on KC Wizards broadcasts and this season Colin Clarke looks like a good bet to me if there is another prolonged midsummer slump putting TFC out of contention by the time season ticket renewal forms start to be put together.

[ag futbol]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

As with El Hombre above you will need to find somebody who actually did that if you are looking for an argument.

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

On the second point how would getting a player from Brazil's Serie A be any different from getting Pablo Vitti from a big Argentinian club like Independiente?

Do you care to explain to everyone here what this means? It was pretty clear what the context of my original post was and your subsequent approval to Mo Johnston watching Series A games. While my retort doesn’t “exactly” match what you said and your original post doesn’t directly reference mine, we both know exactly what this conversation is about. So why don’t you make a counter point with our resorting to your usual bs relating to semantics

PS. The entire point of showing River at the bottom of the table was that you can’t discount the rest of the clubs in Argentina, not that River Plate isn’t a powerhouse. The person above you seemed to have no trouble understanding that. Thanks for quoting wikipendia as usual to show your "knowledge".

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by ag futbol

Do you care to explain to everyone here what this means?

No, it would be repetition and I have better things to do with my time. It's not my problem if you struggle to understand the English language. Fire away with more non-sequiturs if you want. I'll only be responding to the core subject matter of this thread from here on.

[ag futbol]

So you have better things to do with your time, but you've responded to my post saying nothing except that I lack comprehension of the English language. Kind of ironic considering several other people on this board seem to have made the same mistake I did "misinterpreting" your arguments.

If you’re point had any reasonable logic behind it, would it be that hard to explain?