Expanding the Voyageurs Cup

[masster]

No expansion at this time.

Should the Voyageurs Cup ever evolve into a knockout competition, the winner should not be our representative in the Champions League. We want to the send the best team to represent Canada. A league format will proove who the best team is...a knockout style tournament does not always do that.

[VPjr]

^ I disagree masster. if you don't dangle a big carrot, nothing will change. We must create the incentive for rich guys to invest in building soccer clubs. entry into the Voyageurs Cup is one hell of a big incentive for anyone outside the top 3.

Furthermore, can you honestly say Montreal was the best team in Canada. Vancouver won the USL1. Maybe they should be considered the best club in 2008 but Montreal still did one hell of a good job representing Canada in CCL

[piltdownman]

Montreal was the best club in the country. I hate to say it but one of the main reasons Vancouver beat Montreal and PR in the Playoffs is becuase they also had the Concacaf games at the same time.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

The only thing FIFA have done in that regard is put the CSL standings on their website. Having said that if the CSA are now serious about having a division three regional semi-pro setup from coast to coast it is probably a step forward.

And nobody has been willing or able to explain how that happened. Certainly it was not endorsed or initiated by the national association, I have confirmed that. We can only conclude the FIFA webmaster Googled 'Canadian Soccer League' during an idle period one day and made a huge assumption. I doubt anybody in the west acknowledges the CSL as anything but a regional Ontario league.

[Vancouversoccerman]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

Honest question....why are the women waiting for men to organize this tournament. If it is that important (and I agree that it is a good thing) why aren't the groups who run top level women's senior soccer in Canada working in concert to put something together?

Here's a thought...

As all of us here know, the Voyageurs Cup didn't just fall out of the sky. It was created by supporters of professional soccer in Canada, because we didn't have a way to determine or recognize who was the best professional club in Canada. It was completely unrecognized by any governing body, and I bet a lot of the players on those A-League & USL teams over the years didn't realize they were playing for it until they won it.

But it was recognized by the fans. That's all that mattered then, and it's a the biggest reason why it's the official national trophy now.

So, why not encourage the supporters of womens soccer in Canada to do the same? I realize there's not a lot of head-to-head competition between Canadian clubs in the W-League and within other regional leagues. But certainly you could come up with some statistical power-ranking system to determine a champion until head-to-head competition evolves.

To me, that sounds like a good Voyageurs or GoBigRed (or even Friends of Soccer) project.

[Trillium]

We often have too much stick with soccer in Canada ... and not enough carrot.

The CSA in all its fincials could do more for pro game by putting up 250,000 dollars to the winner of knock out cup to be allowed to enter the V Cup.

A pay day like that would drive some clubs to up the ante on talent and league play to get into such a payday.

Make the knock out regional then National, teams to be non-amateur and directly registered with CSA.

[Richard]

Are there any cretieria currently applicable in Canada for determining professional or amateur status of clubs?

[Vic]

quote:why are the women waiting for men to organize this tournament. If it is that important (and I agree that it is a good thing) why aren't the groups who run top level women's senior soccer in Canada working in concert to put something together?

I'm going to do you a favour and pretend you didn't say "waiting for men to organize it", because I know that wasn't your intent.

The CSA is responsible for national championships. And I have no doubt that if we had just three women's teams at the top of our pyramid instead of 15 or 20 that they would have bonded together and lobbied the CSA to collectively give them something for free.

[Cheeta]

quote:Originally posted by Trillium

We often have too much stick with soccer in Canada ... and not enough carrot.

The CSA in all its fincials could do more for pro game by putting up 250,000 dollars to the winner of knock out cup to be allowed to enter the V Cup.

A pay day like that would drive some clubs to up the ante on talent and league play to get into such a payday.

Make the knock out regional then National, teams to be non-amateur and directly registered with CSA.

Was thinking something similar. I'm not adverse to amateur clubs participating in the Vs Cup (Canadian Championship, whatever) but there have to be securities in place so as not to embarrass Canada's participation in CONCACRAP Champions League.

Quite frankly, to my mind, a fourth club in the tourny would be most welcome.

If CSL or PCSL or whatever league (and this sort of thing would HAVE to be done at the LEAGUE level) can provide the CSA with a performance bond ($100K?) and a participation scheme which the CSA can verify and approve (actual player contracts, venue availability, that sort of thing) I see no reason why the CSA shouldn't explore the option of including an amateur or semi-pro league's Champion into the Vs Cup tourny.

If multiple leagues across Canada apply to fill a fourth slot in the Vs Cup, they could sort things out amongst themselves in a preliminary tourny or something like that. At their expense of course.

Other issues also need to be addressed in a scenario like that, including a CSA "head tax" at Canadian Championship matches, sharing gate revenue between participating clubs, and perhaps a travel subsidy from the CSA for the Canadian Champions (pro or amateur) in the early stages of CONCACRAP Champions League.

Not trying to over complicate things, just saying expanding the Vs Cup could be a GREAT idea if, given some fore-thought, it was handled in even a half-assed proper fashion. A real marketing boom at the grass roots level for a national organization too often seen as distant from the grass roots.

Not handled properly. Potential disaster. Canada's performances at the 2007 FIFA U20s type of disaster. Beyond ugly...

[Vic]

quote:"but there have to be securities in place so as not to embarrass Canada's participation in CONCACRAP Champions League."

Then just send Canada's highest-ranking MLS team to it (sorry Montreal - but same as the Serbs the fact is you aren't in the #1 league). People may not like it but that's what they do all over the world. Could some of the English Championship teams upset EPL? Sure. On any given day.

The Nutrilite Men's and Women's should be a seeded open playdown for the best team in the country.

[MegasAlexandros1555362277]

^^^ The difference is that "all over the world" they send the "highest-ranking" team of their national championship. As such, the MLS is NOT Canada's national championship, the Voyageurs Cup is. For the moment, the North American soccer landscape is just too different from the rest of the world to try and use exactly the same type of qualifying schemes. We can only hope that maybe 15 or 20 years down the road we will have the long awaited Canadian League that we want, whose top teams will go to the CCL, and the Voyageurs Cup can become a true open cup competition in exactly the same spirit as the FA Cup in England. For now, we have to be creative and make due with what we have.

[michaeltfc91]

I have an idea based on the thread in "Other men's leagues and clubs" about the Proposed Voyageurs Shield. Basically my idea is to split the country into 5 regions:

1)British Columbia

2)Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba

3)Ontario

4)Quebec & Maritimes

5)The territories

Whichever semi pro / amateur club that wants into the competition can apply if they choose. The CSA looks over each team and either accepts them into the competiton or rejects them based on: league, team quality, stadium, youth program, fan support, history and trophies

Accept either 4 or 8 teams for each region, depending on the quality of teams in each region. For each region have a straight knock-out competition (1 match per round) take place in April or before the final round of the Voyageurs Cup starts.

The 5 winners of each region advances into the Voyageurs Cup, where they are joined by TFC, Montreal and the Whitecaps is an 8 team tournament. These 8 proven quality teams will battle it out to determine the best team in Canada and who will represent us in the CONCACAF Champions League

[Cheeta]

^^^Vic, I was thinking more along the lines of an amateur club withdrawing from the CONCACRAP CL tourney in mid-flight due to lack of funds, not because they were eliminated by a superior opponent.

A performance bond by the clubs league, along with some initial CSA subsidy (from revenues generated during the Vs Cup) would negate that threat. The monies would already be in the bank to send SoI or Callies or White Eagles abroad to represent Canada.

Montreal turned the CONCRACRAP Champions League fixtures into a cash cow last go around. Make no mistake, it was a profitable venture. And there is no reason why ANY club in Canada couldn't reproduce that. If the CSA and parties could come to some sort of revenue sharing scheme between the clubs during Vs Cup action (use FA Cup fixtures as an example, where the host team keeps 2/3rds of the gate, and the visitor gets a 1/3) for an amateur side the road fixtures alone would justify the expense of participating in the Canadian Championship.

Not saying (by any stretch) an amateur side would be a great draw in Vancouver, Toronto, or Montreal, though they might surprise you. Just saying the burden of having an amateur side participating in the Vs Cup could do wonders for the domestic tourney at the grassroots level in regions outside of Canada's three major centers. Just the opportunity of participating in this tourney could be really invigorating for a lot of the better clubs throughout the various leagues in this country to "step it up" as it were. That effect alone could be a very worthy long term investment for the good of this game in Canada.

Hard job making that work but worth the try, no?

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Are there any cretieria currently applicable in Canada for determining professional or amateur status of clubs?

It is my belief that this might be coming. It might never be a binding definition but certainly I anticipate that a guideline will be forthcoming in the not too distant future

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Vic

I'm going to do you a favour and pretend you didn't say "waiting for men to organize it", because I know that wasn't your intent.

The CSA is responsible for national championships. And I have no doubt that if we had just three women's teams at the top of our pyramid instead of 15 or 20 that they would have bonded together and lobbied the CSA to collectively give them something for free.

I'm most certainly not attempting to be derogatory or demeaning.

I'm simply stating that if the stakeholders involved in top level senior women's soccer believe that this is important for the growth of senior women's soccer, they should not wait for the guys in red ties to organize it. They will need to find a way to come together and do what you suggest (lobby the CSA as 1 unified voice). I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that there would be a willingness to seriously explore the concept of an open cup championship, similar to the Nutrilite Voyageurs Cup concept, if there was a unified vision presented by the stakeholders.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

Hard job making that work but worth the try, no?

Yes...absolutely...

[JamboAl]

I like Cheeta's idea but I'll add to it a bit of a radical idea. That is the Vs Cup could be opened up to PDL, CSL and other amateur sides within a knock-out tournament BUT only sides which meet a minimum criteria, either set by CONCACAF or the CSA (don't laugh too hard!), could be put forward to enter the Champions League. So if a CSL side beats any of the three "big teams" in Canada in the final, and the winning side doesn't have the financial resources to play three away matches in Central America for example, the loser of the Vs Cup would be put forward as Canada's representative?

It may sound Mickey Mouse, and very well may be Mickey Mouse, but after awhile the three team tournament will become boring.

[Vic]

Did the men do that? Are their stakeholders interested in the "growth of men's soccer"? It seems to me it's three people interested in the growth of their franchise dollars. It was simply their way to fast-foot themselves into the Champions League last year. I don't recall anyone organizing themselves before that.

Regarding one unified voice and "wait for the guys in red ties to organize it", again, the problem is we have about ten times the number of teams at the top of the pyramid to organize. And while I agree you don't wait for anyone to look after you, if it isn't the CSA's job to promote competition and identify the best team in the country, then...

[Alex D]

quote:Originally posted by JamboAl

I like Cheeta's idea but I'll add to it a bit of a radical idea. That is the Vs Cup could be opened up to PDL, CSL and other amateur sides within a knock-out tournament BUT only sides which meet a minimum criteria, either set by CONCACAF or the CSA (don't laugh too hard!), could be put forward to enter the Champions League. So if a CSL side beats any of the three "big teams" in Canada in the final, and the winning side doesn't have the financial resources to play three away matches in Central America for example, the loser of the Vs Cup would be put forward as Canada's representative?

It may sound Mickey Mouse, and very well may be Mickey Mouse, but after awhile the three team tournament will become boring.

This is where my CSA Club Licensing idea comes into play. You want a CSL or PCSL team, get your club a "CSA B License". Want to join in on the V Cup fun, better make sure your club's got an "CSA A license"!

We need a universal set of criteria across the country for what is required in infrastructure, coaching, player development, etc. If we dangle a high profile carrot in front of these clubs noses, but tell them they need to meet a certain criteria to get there, it will improve the professionalism of the game in this country by a country mile.

[Guest Ed]

quote:Originally posted by JamboAl

I like Cheeta's idea but I'll add to it a bit of a radical idea. That is the Vs Cup could be opened up to PDL, CSL and other amateur sides within a knock-out tournament BUT only sides which meet a minimum criteria, either set by CONCACAF or the CSA (don't laugh too hard!), could be put forward to enter the Champions League. So if a CSL side beats any of the three "big teams" in Canada in the final, and the winning side doesn't have the financial resources to play three away matches in Central America for example, the loser of the Vs Cup would be put forward as Canada's representative?

It may sound Mickey Mouse, and very well may be Mickey Mouse, but after awhile the three team tournament will become boring.

Well that would result in the status quo as that is essentially the criteria that they currently use.

[Vic]

"Improve the professionalism of the game"? Who is the most professional?

a) the team that has an accountant and pays it's players more

the team that wins

[ray]

We will probably have the status quo for the Voyageurs Cup until we get another USL team. With 4 or more clubs, it throws open the doors to change. However, a way will have to be found to keep down the number of games to an amount acceptable to the likes of TFC and the Impact.

[JamboAl]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

Well that would result in the status quo as that is essentially the criteria that they currently use.

Maybe the criteria are too strict for entry into the Vs Cup, then. That's the whole romance behind a cup competition, like the FA Cup. I would love to see the Ottawa Fury play TFC or the Impact, not that they'd have a prayer.

[Alex D]

quote:Originally posted by Vic

"Improve the professionalism of the game"? Who is the most professional?

a) the team that has an accountant and pays it's players more

the team that wins

That's not the point. By setting stricter coaching and player development criteria for clubs that want to participate in the Cup it will push teams to a higher level. The stadium requirements would ensure that our CSL/PCSL rep doesn't look completely Mickey Mouse and lend those leagues some credibility. I want to reward clubs that will take our domestic leagues to the next level.

btw, the club with A is more likely to be the same club as B

[Vic]

Winning isn't the point? Is there another country in the world where a team is actually given basically a coin flip entrance the tournament?

I'm glad you want to reward specific clubs. Perhaps you can write FIFA a letter and get them to fix the rest of the world too. Who needs San Marino. Let them get 5 secretaries and then we'll talk. So what if Trinidad qualified in 2006. They have no right to be there without paying those amateur fullbacks.