Jump to content

NDP BC Place Response


Guest Jeffery S.

Recommended Posts

Guest Jeffery S.

Since the other thread on this debate has died off I thought I could start a new thread on this. Last Saturday I received an email response to my criticism of the NDP campaign questioning the BC Place renovations. Since the soccer angle is strong and the person answering is a fan, I thought I could reproduce it:

Mr. S.,

Thank you for your input. As a football fan in Vancouver, I am very excited about watching the ‘Caps play as an MLS side in the newly renovated BC Place in 2011. The renovations to the BC Place roof and interior are fully costed in our budget. What we are saying is that we will take a look at projects like this (and any that have huge cost overruns like the Vancouver Convention Centre or unnecessary financing structures like the Port Mann Bridge) and see if there are ways to do them better, so they don’t cost the taxpayers more than necessary. For example, we’ve forced the government to admit that under their P3 scheme for the Port Mann the taxpayers would have had to pay several hundred million dollars more than if it was strictly publicly funded.

Regards (and tough luck to Barca so far today, down 2-1 to Valencia right now in the 62nd minute)

Brenton

Brenton Walters

Policy and Correspondence Coordinator

BC NDP

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 53
  • Created
  • Last Reply

The problem is that the NDP has a massive hole in their financial plan for the province and have been dodgy at best to explain how they are going to cover the gap without raising taxes or making cutbacks (which they allege they will not do.)

Quite frankly, the NDP has about as much credibility as a Mexican referee running a Canada match.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Jeffery S.
quote:Originally posted by Johnnie Monster

The problem is that the NDP has a massive hole in their financial plan for the province and have been dodgy at best to explain how they are going to cover the gap without raising taxes or making cutbacks (which they allege they will not do.)

Quite frankly, the NDP has about as much credibility as a Mexican referee running a Canada match.

Opposition parties never have perfect economic plans, they don't have to. Anyone who has followed the history of democratic elections knows that. Name me one single opposition economic program that was implemented as it appeared in pre-election form. Your argument is fallacious.

In any case, the idea that the NDPs short stints in government in BC reduce their credibility when the extremists, family compacts, money baggers and speculators that have run the show for their friends for most of the last century do is laughable. I am not saying the NDP is free from partisanship, as in BC that tends to be their risk area, where they are most likely to fall, but that one party is intrinsically more credible than the other, that is just not a serious argument.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's time for a change in BC anyway, the Campbell Conserv... err Liberals have had a good run enriching themselves and their friends (PPP) and showing contempt for the laws of the country, now its the turn of the other guys for a while. Anyway, nothing would please me more than to see that arrogant, supercilious sob Campbell booted out before he has a chance to bask in the reflected 2010 Olympic glory. Will be interesting to see what share of the vote the real BC Conservatives win this time around and to what extent they erode the rightwing BC Liberal base. I wish there was a 'none of the above' option on the ballot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by bettermirror

Does no one remember what horrible mess the NDP made of this land the last time they were in charge????

I have this odd feeling Richard voted for Bob Rae in his Ontario days.... If I am wrong Richard my apologies in advance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^Maybe he voted for any of Don Getty, Grant Devine, Brian Mulroney and 4 other Provincial Conservative Premiers who made the rest of us pine for a leader as fiscally conservative as Bob Rae. Because all 7 ran worse deficits than the much maligned Mr. Rae. But since I know Richard is a Liberal (in the middle of the road sense of Liberalism) maybe he voted for David Peterson who was running $2 Billion deficits when Ontario had the hottest economy in Canada. Only fools and rabid right wingers mention Bob Rae anymore Trillium. Which one are you?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

^Maybe he voted for any of Don Getty, Grant Devine, Brian Mulroney and 4 other Provincial Conservative Premiers who made the rest of us pine for a leader as fiscally conservative as Bob Rae. Because all 7 ran worse deficits than the much maligned Mr. Rae. But since I know Richard is a Liberal (in the middle of the road sense of Liberalism) maybe he voted for David Peterson who was running $2 Billion deficits when Ontario had the hottest economy in Canada. Only fools and rabid right wingers mention Bob Rae anymore Trillium. Which one are you?

Gordon.. Bob Rae .. currently best friend of Liberal Leader Iggy .. come on .. lots of people talk about Bob Rae and how he could not lead the federal liberal becuase if his deficit creation in Ontario and his betrayal of the Public Service unions sending them on the infamous Rae Days... right wing or fool, call it as you see it .. but Bob Rae is still a politician who is talked about.

Gordon did you vote straight CCF in your day ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

^Maybe he voted for any of Don Getty, Grant Devine, Brian Mulroney and 4 other Provincial Conservative Premiers who made the rest of us pine for a leader as fiscally conservative as Bob Rae. Because all 7 ran worse deficits than the much maligned Mr. Rae. But since I know Richard is a Liberal (in the middle of the road sense of Liberalism) maybe he voted for David Peterson who was running $2 Billion deficits when Ontario had the hottest economy in Canada. Only fools and rabid right wingers mention Bob Rae anymore Trillium. Which one are you?

Yet you act as if all those name you mention were even Conservatives to begin with. The NDP provincial governments have long been case studies in not how to run a province. Its not just fools and rabid right wingers that use the Rae example.

If you don't get that, then you are a clueless individual.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Yet you act as if all those name you mention were even Conservatives to begin with. The NDP provincial governments have long been case studies in not how to run a province. Its not just fools and rabid right wingers that use the Rae example.

If you don't get that, then you are a clueless individual.

Must have been the name - Progressive Conservative - that fooled me. And I am once again underwhelmed by your insight. Although I am profoundly amused by your entrance into a discussion of fools and rabid rightwingers...your honour, I'd like to label Gavin Doyle as "Exhibit A".

I'd take the time to educate you Doyle, if I thought it were possible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let me say this about Bob Rae. I don’t think he was the best premier Ontario has had in my lifetime. I actually prefer Bill Davis – a Progressive Conservative. But there is absolutely no question that Bob Rae was unfairly savaged by the corporate media, despite the fact that his performance was significantly better than several of his provincial peers at the time. Rae’s governments ran deficits ranging ranging from $10 – 13.5 billion. Large numbers indeed, but on a per capita basis, in the region of $1K to 1.3K per person. He also had the misfortune of inheriting government from David Peterson who was running deficits of $2 Billion despite Ontario having a red hot economy and then to be hit by the worst recession since the depression. Hmmn…what happens to government revenue when a recession hits…and especially, what happens to them when the recession hits after 4-5 years of flying high economically? Although not a fan of Mulroney, it should be noted that he inherited massive deficits from the Liberals, but unlike Rae, he did have a few years of good economy to try to address that and did not. By way of comparison, Rae would have had to run deficits approaching $30 Billion to equal the performance of Conservative Grant Devine in Saskatchewan, who inherited government from the NDP, which had not run a deficit once in its 11 year mandate. Rae’s deficits would have had to be in the area of $25 Billion to equal the performance of Conservative Don Getty in Alberta. Getty, like Devine before him inherited a government that had not run a deficit during the Lougheed years (Another excellent Conservative Premier, btw, despite the champagne toast with Trudeau to the NEP). The same story was repeated in numerous provinces across Canada, yet all we heard of was the Rae “deficit”. Hell, living in Calgary at the time, it was a staple of the media, print and radio, and oft repeated by the very same conservatives running deficits in Edmonton that were far, far in excess of anything Mr. Rae delivered. Rae made mistakes. First and foremost was thinking that a province, even one as large as Ontario, could pursue a Keynesian economic policy independently of the Feds and the rest of the provinces (who despite their large deficits, were not achieving them by increased spending). A second mistake was pursuing Keynesian practices only half-heartedly…i.e. he really didn’t pump a lot of extra money into the economy either. Signing the contracts with the various public sector unions, then going back on them with his Rae days, was also poor decision making, both in the initial signing and then going back on the deals. And lastly, he made the mistake of not recognizing that 39% is not a mandate to govern without consideration of all interests (a mistake, incidentally, that Harper has been making as well). At 39% you gotta go slow, and not make a lot of changes to the social fabric, because you do not have a mandate. On the flip side, he did some amazing work to save companies like Algoma Steel, de Havilland and others from going under during the aforementioned recessions, and the relatively small nature of his deficits did not have the same debilitating impact on Ontario’s recovery as did those in provinces like Saskatchewan (among others) particularly (who, I will note, was the first province to balance its budget and slay the deficit dragon in Canada under the NDP).

I was never a fan of Rae, both as an MP (and Federal Finance Critic for the NDP), and as a Premier. Although in answer to your question Trillium, I have not gone straight CCF/NDP (sorry, way too young to have ever cast a vote for the CCF) in my life, although I did run for them twice in the 90s and typically do tend to vote for them now. Financially, I am quite conservative (small “c”) – in the sense of balancing revenues with expenditures and making sure the economy continues to grow and work for everyone. But that is not mutually exclusive of being NDP. Indeed, I think that you would find that the Saskatchewan CCF/NDP has been consistently the most financially conservative party in Canada. You’ll also note that Saskatchewan and Manitoba, who have been largely governed by NDP governments over the past decade, as the two provinces faring the best during this recession (and indeed, Saskatchewan is largely untouched). Go Figure. Indeed, I for one, am glad the Saskatchewan Party (The Liberals, discredited by their time in office all joined up with the Conservatives, who, discredited by their time in Office, created the Saskatchewan Party) did not have enough time in office to undo the work of teh NDP. Perhpas they have no intention of doing so, but it is always hard to tell with them.

I really don’t give a damn if someone is conservative, liberal or socialist if that is the way their values lean, but we have been getting worse and worse government in the Country because we, the voting public, have become vegetables. Bull **** is accepted as gospel and the public has suspended disbelief. Taking refuge in “all politicians are liars/corrupt/stupid” and quitting on Canada on and our communities, most of us are too sated and self absorbed to put together a few hours to actively think, look and learn about the governments and political parties and their messages. This is true of people form all political persuasions and that, more than anything pisses me off. I’ve said it before on this board, and I’ll repeat it now: competence trumps ideology when it comes to government. Obviously our values define competence so opinions will vary. I personally would have voted for Peter Lougheed ahead of many past NDP Premiers (including Rae) despite my leftish leaning. Same is true of Bill Harris, although I must admit, for the Conservatives, it is a small list.

Way to long, rambling and boring for a soccer site. Sorry about that. I am done with any political discourse. For those of you who read it all, thanks for toughing it out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Jeffery S.

I think the folks in Alberta should just consider this: if we had to create a variable relating economic power with soccer power, Alberta would have the largest gap in the world, maybe along with Hong Kong or something.

Nowhere else in the world do we find relative economic power alongside such a soccer wasteland, in terms of pro teams, soccer infrastructure, pro development, even as we have recently seen university soccer. Alberta is a soccer joke, and there is no excuse. Unless you want to talk about your turncoat exports.

Now match that to the fact that Alberta has been one of the most consistently and dogmatically conservative regions in the world for the past 50 years. Majority conservative politics means what for soccer?

Doesn't that make it a bit hypocritical and dishonest to chime in about what Liberals or NDP might or might not do for pro soccer somewhere else? The last party I would want making decisions about pro soccer in my region is one like the one you have voted in since time immemorial.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There may be a pro vacuum in AB, but they have the Callies and had the Ital-Canadians before that on the men's side, and the Angels on the women's who have a record that may never get matched. A pretty good girls program too, not sure about the boys. I hear they are turf-needy but seem to remember a lot of quality fields there compared to the East.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Jeffery S.

This idea of a total GDP to soccer power ratio rather intrigues me.

Alberta has the third highest consolidated GDP in Canada, at about 235,600 million CDN dollars in 2006, comparable to the Czech Republic. That makes it comparable to about the no. 20 US state. It is ahead of BC in GDP, taking over in the last decade, but significantly behind in soccer power.

You would have to take in the total value of soccer in a region, which of course rises dramatically the moment you have one or more pro teams with multi-million dollar income, and even more so if the team owns its stadium, as that would be a major asset. Players are also assets, if the team is hooked into the world player market (as MLS is just starting to be). Most amateur soccer represents numbers but not income or assets, apart from some amateur clubs owning important facilities on prime land.

Technically, I suppose that you would have to take a few American states without MLS teams and maybe with little to no USL presence, like Florida, as similar to Alberta. But FLA has Bradenton development and university soccer. Until the new franchise, Pennsylvania.

Amongst the top developed nations, perhaps the weakest soccer city is Paris, with just one top flight pro team and Paris FC in third tier. I don't think there is any comparable city in the developed West as soccer weak as Paris in comparison to GDP in Ille de France. I know Berlin is similar in soccer power (top flight Hertha, third tier teams), but metropolitan Berlin is not as large as metro Paris.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First-Past-the-Post people. I don't want seven different MLAs representing me and 200,000 other people in each of just 20 electoral districts, I want one representative for my community of not more than 20,000 voters thank you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Jeffery S.
quote:Originally posted by Richard

First-Past-the-Post people. I don't want seven different MLAs representing me and 200,000 other people in each of just 20 electoral districts, I want one representative for my community of not more than 20,000 voters thank you.

Meaning you are totally opposed to the current municipal electoral system? Thanks for clearing that up.

Where is your "Wards Now for Vancouver" website, I'd like to check it out?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, I vehemently oppose the no-ward municipal system used in Vancouver. It means most if not all city councillors live in a few wealthy suburbs and have very little connection with the people they represent. Elected representatives should come from or at the very least live in the communities they represent. Back to BC-STV, how connected to their communities of 200,000 voters do you think each of the seven MLA's representing each of those 20 electoral districts will be. It is a profound corruption of the direct representation by population principle that has been the backbone of our democracy since BC first became a democracy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...