De Vos: Fixing Canadian soccer, Player Development

[Vic]

"The provincial all star team programs are essentially done away with..."

If we have regional programs these programs become at best sporadic one week camps. It also doesn't have to be big province vs. little province, it can be splitting the country into zones split along population lines. The idea is simply bringing together the best of the best for a little extra competition once or twice a year.

"players invited to train with regional programs MUST be free of charge to ensure that no players are left behind."

100% agree.

"at the oldest age groups, the regional teams should be the players' full time team and they should be competing against the other regional teams"

The coaching development angle is great. This was my original question, how possible/probable it is on the boys side to get buy in from TFC, VWC, etc. There isn't a whole lot of late blooming after that age, and those are the kids who are national targets. I like to think they would be allowed to participate in quality P-T training, but I also get the feeling I am wearing extremely rose-coloured glasses. Why would a club with a substantial investment in a player(s) allow them into a training program outside their control? I think that would take some political stickhandling by the CSA, and likely biting the bullet on something else in their dealings with them to pull it off.

[tmcmurph]

I suggested to JD in his blog that spreading futsal to all the schools in this country is the surest way to improve the level of play. It would give kids already in clubs more time to play small sided games and more importantly almost all kids go to school so regardless of social status or family income they would get to play.

We could double the number of hours available to play soccer by doing this and that would help immensely. All schools have gym with a hardwood floor. Nets and balls and let them play.

The kids who are already good get better, more kids are exposed to soccer who would not otherwise play it and soccer becomes a year round activity in schools not just a fall or spring season of 2 months.

[earlimus]

Three cheers for De Vos for doing all of this work for Canadian soccer. I personally don´t know enough (or anything) about our federal/provincial/regional system to comment, but I do agree ^^^^ that futsal would help immensly. We´re on the right route in the GTA with making soccer available year round. In my hometown of Pickering we just replaced a grass field with high-end turf, and it´s effects are remarkable. It´s being used day and night and is totally worth the investment. It can be used year round and provides a pitch superior to any grass field that I´ve seen or played on in all of Toronto.

I´m extremely critical of BMO field (I´ve even started threads on how we have to change it) but that´s our professional stadium, not pitch´s for normal players. Grass fields for your average joe are simply not logistical in Canada, and turf is the better choice.

I´ve lived in Ireland and Scotland and the same turf pitches (both full field and futsol size) are used to great effect year round in those countries, as in Spain where I´m living now. Even ones that are beat up and worn out are still great. Trust me, a 5 year old, outdated turf pitch is way better than most of the best grass fields in Toronto. It allows year round action, and in the end is probably (citation needed) cheaper in the long run as well.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

"Player development belongs in the clubs, create the right open set of rules to have clubs move to be non - amateur and you can do proper player development on a pay to play basis."

That requires club management and membership have the means and motivation to become non-amateur. I suggest very few amateur clubs in Canada have what it would take to become professional (which is what non-amateur means right?).

You dont need every second club to do it in fact in the reality is you need say two clubs in Edmonton and two in Calgary to do it.. or three or four in Lower mainland.

The issue is having a set of open rules that allow clubs which are currently constrained to have Senior men's non-amateur play, and leagues that have defined requirements for a controlled access pitch, charge admission, play under the lights .. etc. Just like your lower level leagues world wide.

This allows any town with five or ten thousand souls to have a Non-Amateur team, and for some to have greater ambitions.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by Vic

And who can afford it isn't even the real problem - how many kids should pay the price of a university education to a club or academy when the narrowest of margin have a chance of ever making a dime from the game? Wouldn't that money be better suited in a RESP for almost all of them?

So Vic your in the camp of dont have the kid involved in anything that costs any money .. just slap it in a RESP so the unhealthy whelp can die of a heart attack at twenty five ?

Seriously if you are still stuck on the funding issue, I think you just dont get it .. Soccr is no cheaper a sport to excell at in Canada then is any other sport, if your family does not have the resources but you have the talent.. money is available, if you are running a club the money can be found for the special cases that need it.

Go talk to your local Lions club ask them how they can make such mondy available in your town, if you are credible they will put money towards a individual player or a program.

Pay for Play Academys like LT is involved in can access funds in a simalar way.

You do realize Vic any child who lives with a family on Public assistance can have there "sport" fees paid by the Provincial welfare program ?

Don't bring your its got to be cheap mindset into this you wont move inch then and you might as well admit you like how the CSA and provincals do it now, and agree we will always be behing the eight ball.

[Vic]

What a perfect world. Everyone who needs anything has it. Just tap your ruby shoes together and away you go. Don't worry about the man behind the curtain, because the Great Wizard looks after everyone.

We have plans for the 0.1% of kids with NO MONEY. We have no plans for kids gliding above the poverty line with hardly any money. We have no plans for people who live above that but can not afford it if they want, say for example, to go past high school. Which doesn't sound like such a bad idea to me.

I know hundreds of families that cannot afford to spend thousands of dollars a YEAR on sport for ONE of their children. NONE of them are eligible for help.

If academies want to train whoever walks in the door with a cheque, great, Godspeed. But if we're talking about excellence and assembling and training the best of the best, then we would be well suited to remove parents occupation and financial status from the equation.

[L.T.]

Hey guys, this is a good discussion, let's not stray into personal commentary...

I think Vic is preaching the ideal, but in reality I don't think you can fully subsidize a program large enough to develop the number of players we'd need to sustain either a pro league or a successful National team.

I'm loathe to compare Soccer Player Development to Hockey Player Development because I believe there are fundamental differences, but one comparison I think is valid is that until the age of 15 or so, pretty much ALL hockey players are paying thousands of dollars to get the training they need. Once they hit junior they no longer pay, and I think that is the most we (Soccer) can strive for.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by Vic

What a perfect world. Everyone who needs anything has it. Just tap your ruby shoes together and away you go. Don't worry about the man behind the curtain, because the Great Wizard looks after everyone.

We have plans for the 0.1% of kids with NO MONEY. We have no plans for kids gliding above the poverty line with hardly any money. We have no plans for people who live above that but can not afford it if they want, say for example, to go past high school. Which doesn't sound like such a bad idea to me.

I know hundreds of families that cannot afford to spend thousands of dollars a YEAR on sport for ONE of their children. NONE of them are eligible for help.

If academies want to train whoever walks in the door with a cheque, great, Godspeed. But if we're talking about excellence and assembling and training the best of the best, then we would be well suited to remove parents occupation and financial status from the equation.

So Vic where do you find the money ?

[Vic]

We're already running U13 teams regionally, and training older kids in satellite centers. Where do we get the money for a few more?

- Sport Canada/Federal programs

- Registration fees

- Program sponsorship

- Administrative savings

Although if you want to do something affordably the best way is to hire someone Scottish or Dutch to run it.

Hockey L.T.? Are you using hockey as an example of inclusion for low-income minorities? Scroll halfway down to the post with the images:

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18396&whichpage=2

The Czech Republic are 1996, 1999, 2000, 2001 and 2005 World Champions. We probably have at least 50 rinks for every one they do. We shouldn't be copying what we do in hockey - we should be copying what they do.

[Vic]

Sorry, left this one out. All these kids are in school. School's have facilities. School's hire instructors. Quebec already has Sport Études. There are some in Ontario too.

Classic example of the cost/benefit and opportunities of running programs like this in schools:

quote:Ornskoldsvik, Henrik's [sedin's] small home town of just 30,000 people. But that home town has produced an incredible number of NHL stars. Along with Henrik and his brother Daniel, Markus Naslund's roots are there, so are Peter Forsberg's and more than a dozen others who have played in the NHL since 2002.

A Swedish economist once famously calculated that Ornskoldsvik should have had about 12 million residents to produce that many NHL players.

A big reason is Anders Melinder, who is now working for a team in Austria. He was in charge of Ornskoldsvik's hockey high school for more than 20 years.

"When you went to high school you practised every single morning,'' Henrik said. "It's a big reason we have so many players from our home town.

"We'd practise again in the afternoon. That's twice a day, every day for three or four years. You can work on your skills that you wouldn't normally be able to work on in regular practice. For instance, in the morning you could work on your hands, or your passing or your shooting. That made a big difference.''

Pretty hard to argue with the results.

[Keegan]

That's absolutely incredible about that town in Sweden.

One country that is really impressive as far as players to population is Iceland. They have a player pool comparable to ours yet a population of only 320 000.

I know Canada one day is going to be a major force just by seeing the progress of the sport in this country.

[Mazha]

Canadian boys don't have a CLUE about training at least 4 times a week and at least 1 game on the weekend (2 times a day preferably - outside at recess or lunch - would be acceptable). And if they are good enough to play UP with older boys most clubs in this country would generally discourage this ambition (or at least they did 13 years ago). These are the two are the two grassroot issues that have to be addressed or worked on before we slag the "powers that be" that are trying to lead us to the World Cup.

[L.T.]

quote:Originally posted by Vic

Hockey L.T.? Are you using hockey as an example of inclusion for low-income minorities?

Not sure how you read that into what I said...

What we are doing at U13 is barely sustainable, much less replicated to 3 or 4 times the size ("a few more" kids, nice one!)

In Ontario, we have coaches that are moonlighting with the OSA, Academies and clubs just to make ends meet. The programs only get together a few times a year so cost are low. To ensure are best players are in a proper environment 7 days a week and 10 months a year, it is going to cost money.

In my own experience, and in talking to others that try to run competitive programs, a budget for a team that is kept together 10 months a year, trains 3-4 times per week with 1 game per week would be in the neighbourhood of $60,000/year. That includes facilities, coaching staff salaries, therapists, match officials, uniforms, equipment etc. Multiply this by 10 provinces times 4-8 regions per province and by 4 age groups and times two genders and you are well over $20,000,000 per year...

And Frankly, the fact the you keep referring to things we already do as a starting point for change concerns me. It is those things we already do that have us in the mess we are in...

[tmcmurph]

quote:Originally posted by earlimus

Three cheers for De Vos for doing all of this work for Canadian soccer. I personally don´t know enough (or anything) about our federal/provincial/regional system to comment, but I do agree ^^^^ that futsal would help immensly. We´re on the right route in the GTA with making soccer available year round. In my hometown of Pickering we just replaced a grass field with high-end turf, and it´s effects are remarkable. It´s being used day and night and is totally worth the investment. It can be used year round and provides a pitch superior to any grass field that I´ve seen or played on in all of Toronto.

I´m extremely critical of BMO field (I´ve even started threads on how we have to change it) but that´s our professional stadium, not pitch´s for normal players. Grass fields for your average joe are simply not logistical in Canada, and turf is the better choice.

I´ve lived in Ireland and Scotland and the same turf pitches (both full field and futsol size) are used to great effect year round in those countries, as in Spain where I´m living now. Even ones that are beat up and worn out are still great. Trust me, a 5 year old, outdated turf pitch is way better than most of the best grass fields in Toronto. It allows year round action, and in the end is probably (citation needed) cheaper in the long run as well.

I am glad you have a vibrant setting in GTA but my whole idea of getting the schools to play futsal is to avoid the things you talk about. We don't have endless buckets of money to work with so we need to leverage existing infrastructure.

Almost all schools have gyms with hardwood. You can play futsal in them year round. Add to this that almost all kids go to school and you have a much larger base of players entering the bottom of the pyramid. Once the high end players are identified the clubs can work on their development.

Like I said in another thread a while back, I sometimes think we have too much money in this continent because we always approach the problems from the wrong angle. The soccer ball bounces too much indoors because the grass outside absorbs some of the energy. We try to bring the grass indoors costing millions of dollars and the rest of the world makes a ball that bounces less for $30.

[mrgreer]

quote:Originally posted by tmcmurph

Almost all schools have gyms with hardwood. You can play futsal in them year round. Add to this that almost all kids go to school and you have a much larger base of players entering the bottom of the pyramid. Once the high end players are identified the clubs can work on their development.

If someone (the CSA??) bought schools the proper equipment, teachers would quickly jump all over futsal. In the three elementary schools in which I taught teachers spent large chunks of PE time on skipping because someone had bought the entire region brand new sets of skip ropes!

[Vic]

Futsal is just a ball. You can use the lines on the wall for nets. It's wonderful for young kids and even for cross training at older ages. The only problem on relying on it too heavily is that at older ages it's a different development path. You have to specialize when you get into your teens.

L.T., how I read it in: The topic was how to subsidize a program that means it isn't just for people who can afford it. You used hockey as "valid comparison" of what we should be doing. I don't really see it as a shining example of that.

I think the existing regional program is the best progress we've made in decades and also what de Vos is suggesting taking to the next level.

It's nowhere near 40-80 regions. Ontario already has regions - 7. That's a third of Canada. Half the provinces in Canada can support no more than 1 region. If you go by geographic/population proximity Canada can support no more than 20 regions.

"facilities, coaching staff salaries, therapists, match officials, uniforms, equipment etc."

For over half the year outdoor facilities are almost nothing. And in some regions that's even longer. You need one part-time therapist per region at best. Equipment isn't even worth commenting on. Not a lot of match officials in a training environment either. The uniforms the kids use now are years old and they train in t-shirts and no one complains. There's also no profit taken out of the system either.

You believe kids have to pay thousands of dollars a year. Fair game. I'm not going to change your mind. All I know is if I lived next door to a really talented kid and his parents had two low-end jobs and a handful of kids to get an education, I sure hope that kid gets the chance he deserves instead of some kid with half the talent and a bigger wallet. And the only way I see that happening is when people don't have to decide between a university education and joining a soccer program.

quote:"And Frankly, the fact the you keep referring to things we already do as a starting point for change concerns me. It is those things we already do that have us in the mess we are in..."

Where we are now is always the starting point for change.

[tmcmurph]

quote:Originally posted by mrgreer

If someone (the CSA??) bought schools the proper equipment, teachers would quickly jump all over futsal. In the three elementary schools in which I taught teachers spent large chunks of PE time on skipping because someone had bought the entire region brand new sets of skip ropes!

Exactly. If someone has a million dollars which would get the best rate of return:

1) Build a single turf field

2) Give away 650 sets of 2 futsal nets & 5 balls to schools

I vote #2.

[mrgreer]

quote:Originally posted by tmcmurph

Exactly. If someone has a million dollars which would get the best rate of return:

1) Build a single turf field

2) Give away 650 sets of 2 futsal nets & 5 balls to schools

I vote #2.

#2 plus train the teachers. Honestly they would eat it up.

Also offer deals (kids/students are free?) to soccer games and tell schools about these deals!!!! I know of dozens of kids in Vancouver who love soccer, play soccer but have no idea about the Whitecaps or that a national team exists.