De Vos: Fixing Canadian soccer, Player Development

[johnmolinaro]

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/blogs/2009/04/offside_fixing_canadian_soccer_1.html

[Vic]

John, I posted this in the first thread you started earlier but guess you missed it. I would have rather given you the traffic and posted this on the CBC site but it's down and hasn't been responding for over half hour now.

Jason, a very well thought-out piece and I agree entirely. Regional training squads in two year cycles up to U18 with quality coaching are a great idea. I would be surprised if the provincial bodies wouldn't back you, with the challenge just being how to generate the funding. But if we can't get our best coaches and kids together we might as well pull the plug.

As the game matures here professional clubs like TFC, the Impact and the Caps are and will continue to setup shop in the major urban areas and have a monopoly on elite player development. This is a significantly large part of the country's elite player pool, and the concept you are suggesting is a little more comprehensive than releasing players for national team camps and duty. Is there a precedent somewhere in the world for professional clubs releasing their "assets" to an national body on a regular basis? Do you think the CSA could get them to participate in the best interests of the country?

I hope so, because if we could ever get them all on the same page and generate that kind of synergy, we could achieve some pretty amazing things.

[L.T.]

Good commentary, but I disagree with this:

"With so few professional clubs in Canada, the burden of player development lies with the provincial associations. Rightly or wrongly, that is the situation that we find ourselves in."

Player development does not need professional clubs - it needs a professional environment with professional coaches. The "burden of player development" lies with the provinces because they defend it like their lives depend on it.

Provinces complain that club coaches hoard players in order to win championships... Well what do you expect when our biggest province has hoisted upon it's membership the genius of "The Pyramid of Play" where teams beginning at U11 are placed in a system where they have to win their league every year in order to move up to their holy grail of the OYSL. The provincies are not interested in improving player development, they are only interested in maintain control over it so they can continue to charge $30 a head for the 'privilege' of membership...

The CSA and provinces have had a 100-year monopoly on player development and have made a mess of it. They need to accept their own limitations and instead of aribitrarily carving up the country to give jobs to their buddies, our governing bodies need to create an environment that will foster and encourage professional training environments wherever they can be sustained. Many very experienced and respected coaches in Canada will have nothing to do with the CSA & provincial associations, so the type of coaches that will be attracted will be inexperienced or second rate. UEFA level coaches do not want to be told what to do by insurance salesmen and retired cops, they want to work in an environment where they have the flexibility to implement their own programs and if they succeed, they will be rewarded.

[jpg75]

Anyone interested in attending a session this Thursday to discuss the state of soccer in Canada with Jason De Vos?

The next coaches meeting will be held on Thursday, April 30th at the SportAlliance Ontario building at 3 Concorde Gate, North York, ON M3C 3N7 (basically the DVP and Eglinton). It will run from 7-9PM.

Our speaker will be Jason de Vos, to speak about his international experiences and his thoughts on coaching development. Jason has just undertaken a project to document how we can fix Canadian soccer, so it may be interesting to hear his thoughts. Please note, though, the intention of this session is Coaching Development.

There will be a modest charge to cover the cost of the room rental (I'm expecting about $5). Bring your own water.

Email to CoachGT@sympatico.ca if you're interested...

[Vic]

^ L.T. - how do you propose to better assemble regional centers of excellence with our best coaches and players under one roof?

[L.T.]

I would prefer the Provincial associations set the framework - develop a license for clubs or academies to aspire to in order to receive designation as an Elite Training Centre (or whatever you want to call it) and then pretty much get out of the way.

Provide them with the tools they need to attract and retain the best players (i.e. nationwide regional leagues, sponsorship, bursaries etc) and oversee their progress. Continue to increase the standards to discourage the wannabes and fly-by-nights. I believe in controlling growth through the incorporation of tougher standards, rather than arbitrarily defining territories that create little kingdoms where the ones in control believe it is their god-given right.

We're not yet ready for a full-fledged pro league, but a professional environment where players are not paid, but also do not pay for their training (i.e. something between the OHL and Tier 2 Junior A hockey) is achievable. Heck, if the CSA/provinces can figure out a way to may it remotely profitable, we'll soon be attracting the best and brighest - on the field and behind the benches.

[Vic]

Something like this?

http://thefa.com/GetIntoFootball/Players/PlayersPages/WomensAndGirls/FAGirlsCentresOfExcellence.aspx

[L.T.]

yup...

[Vic]

The FA goes for the same U10, U12, U14 and U16 age groups de Vos suggests, and also do not allow any child to travel more than 90 minutes to training.

[bettermirror]

Canada is instituting a standard by which all clubs must match if they wish to compete at the top level. IE, you must have requirement A-B-C-D-E-F etc. If you have A-B-D-E-F but are missing D then before your club can play at the top level of youth soccer you must put D into place within your club structure.

What this does is allow certain clubs to remain recreational or feeder clubs while others can strive for elite player development. At this point player movement between associations should be restricted - ie, a player cannot move from a 5-star to a 5-star but can move from a 4-star to 5-star or from a 5-star to a smaller club (or stay within the 5-star but play at a lower level team within that structure). Ideally what this will do is ensure all clubs at the elite level within each province are giving every youth the same developmental opportunities. One of these conditions will be a highly qualified club head coach (WHO WILL TRAIN THE PLAYERS A PORTION OF THE TIME) and certified coaches full-time for each team (ie, Pre-B provincial?? who commits to 2 practices per week). A club academy will be required as well for the additional 1 or 2 nights of training being available for all players.

Off the top of my head is this outlined in the Wellness to the World Cup? If it isn't I can provide the structure model to you guys...

[L.T.]

I don't see this happening with the current structure. The idea is good but it will have no teeth.

The provinces will have too much leeway in how this is phased in. Have you seen what Ontario is doing? If you have an Excel spreadsheet with the names and phone numbers of all your coaches, congrats! you are a bronze level club.

The CSA can publish these standards, but the provinces control the leagues, so the only way the CSA will be able to enforce them is by taking over the management of the top level leagues from the provinces...

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by L.T.

The CSA can publish these standards, but the provinces control the leagues, so the only way the CSA will be able to enforce them is by taking over the management of the top level leagues from the provinces...

Perhaps worth keeping the voting structure of the CSA in mind. The CSA is the ultimate gravy train for people who have risen to the top of the provincial associations. The last thing they are ever going to do is launch an initiative that would reduce the influence of the people who will decide whether they can keep their board position unless they want to be the next Colin Linford. It would be different if professional clubs held most of the votes in the national association as tends to be the case in many/most countries.

[Vic]

Playing at the top level of soccer? For the players de Vos is talking about that means very little. At U10/U12/U14/U16 you simply play older teams. The only time that is relevant is U18/adult, and by then the NCAA and TFC and the Caps have the pipeline on the kids who will play for Canada.

I also don't believe de Vos is proposing leagues. Sounded more like a training environment with the only game action being quality training matches and possibly the odd tournament.

The CSA has been having major problems simply managing a couple of national teams and you want them to manage youth leagues in every province? [shudder] On a provincial scale of organizational and bureaucratic quicksand and dysfunctionality they rank about 42 out of 10. Until their governance model is fixed and proved out they shouldn't be doing anything more, and that will take many, many years.

[L.T.]

You make it sound so easy - "you simply play older teams" - the question is, who is "you" and where will you find these older teams? That kind of flexibility is not readily available. These older teams you want to play - I'm assuming they are not part of this 'elite' system (otherwise they wouldn't be playing vs younger teams) - when would you play them? They will have their own schedules and league obligations. And since they have been excluded from the elite track, I doubt very much they would be that accommodating. As for the team itself, will they be content to playing a haphazard schedule of games against random teams that have little to play for?

I am part of a very small independent project (www.academysoccer.ca) that is implementing a lot of what is being discussed. Granted, it is hampered by the fact that it has yet to receive official sanctioning, but we are now entering our fourth year and have encountered many of the issues that a program like the one De Vos is advocating would likely face. The one I mention above is a big one. Others include:

- Who will pay? Licensed coaches, facilities, 3-5 days a week training cost money. We are currently bound by the pay-to-play model, which limits the talent base

- Where will the players go? - Unfortunately our options are mutually exclusive - CIS, NCAA or Pro - in many cases choosing one excludes the others. TFC Academy is finding out that if you promote one over the others, you risk losing some quality players.

On the other point, while I agree that the CSA is in no position to undertake the development of a nationwide youth league. I'm hoping (wishful thinking, I know) that they could create an environment that would encourage dynamic soccer people to step up and do the work (i.e we'd see the formation of an independent group like the CHL in hockey)

[Vic]

Who is "you"? (the kids involved)

The U12/14/16/18 regional teams de Vos is talking about.

Where will you find these teams? (the sparring partners)

L1/L3-ish club level all over the country.

When would you play them

Like de Vos said: "a harmonized training schedule, whereby there are no conflicts between club team and regional team." That means off-season like provincial programs and/or scheduled dark dates in-season. This has already been going on for a long time across the country.

Will they be content to playing a haphazard schedule of games against random teams?

Again, it's already been going on in every province for a long time. And these programs are on top of club programs, working alongside them, and not mutually exclusive. Kids already bust the number of games they should be playing for their ages long before the season is over anyway, and that's not even including their Winter or off-season games. It's a training program, with casual competition, and not the other way around.

These programs already exist with kids paying thousands of dollars for them. The day they have better organization and funding, better coaching than the clubs and charge kids nothing, it becomes the premiere target and every talented kid comes through the front door.

[Vic]

Who will pay?

That is the big question. I believe it would have to come from a combination of government, registration fees, sponsorships, car washes, etc. Any and everywhere money can be dredged. But if no one can find a way and it means only young U12/U14 kids of doctors and lawyers, again, pull the plug.

It would be interesting to look at the development contracts of the U16/18 TFC and Whitecaps kids. Is there a model there for recouping investment?

Where will the players go?

Hopefully the highest level they can. And it's not just the pro clubs, some of the national teams have struggled with NCAA commitments for years.

[Guest Ed]

Having multiple provincial Super Y league teams spread around through the province leads to a higher level league and higher standard for those elite players identified within each region at each age group. Good for player development right? Not according to the ASA who abolished such Super Y league teams in Alberta 2 or 3 years ago. Why?

[Eric]

Without serious competition there's not progress and 17 year old players should be integrated to senior leagues if they have any hope of moving forward on their carriers.

[Vic]

Ed, smells like a setup like Fleming but... guesses:

a) they feel the current pyramid of play they provide and work towards is a better use of their limited resources than splitting into two different ones

the super Y is offshore and managerial decisions are controlled in another country

c) it is a questionable level of play versus L1 youth domestic

d) they charge kids the price of a university degree to go through their youth programs. Think about that. Not just the social irresponsibility of it, but the exclusion - had the Brazilian national team grown up in Calgary, you would have a lot of great Brazilian restaurants.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by johnmolinaro

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/blogs/2009/04/offside_fixing_canadian_soccer_1.html

Devos has one thing right the two year age groups.. lots of th4e rest is very very wrong.

Player development belongs in the clubs, create the right open set of rules to have clubs move to be non - amateur and you can do proper player development on a pay to play basis.

Lets understand the current system is created by the rules in place, want a different motivation in clubs change the rules and structure.

If a player of skill cannot afford to play .. there is funding pools to pay for the player.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

Having multiple provincial Super Y league teams spread around through the province leads to a higher level league and higher standard for those elite players identified within each region at each age group. Good for player development right? Not according to the ASA who abolished such Super Y league teams in Alberta 2 or 3 years ago. Why?

It's all about power and control.

[Richard]

"Player development belongs in the clubs, create the right open set of rules to have clubs move to be non - amateur and you can do proper player development on a pay to play basis."

That requires club management and membership have the means and motivation to become non-amateur. I suggest very few amateur clubs in Canada have what it would take to become professional (which is what non-amateur means right?).

[Vic]

Clubs move non-amateur and operate pay-to-play? How many professional clubs around the world operate on a pay-to-play basis at the youth level? Even in Canada they don't (VWC/TFC).

If a player of skill cannot afford to play .. there is funding pools to pay for the player.

For the kid living on the street. But what about the other 25% who can barely pay? Parents with big mortgages, two minimum wage jobs each and 7 kids? Should they be disadvantaged compared to other kids? Is it about skill or wallet? Who decides? Is $20,000 the minimum family income? $30,000, $40,000? Who is going to investigate and administrate all this? We can't even operate a tax system with a hundred thousand people behind it. What about the phenomenally talented kid but the family doesn't believe in paying for sport. Should that kid be disadvantaged? What have they done wrong?

And who can afford it isn't even the real problem - how many kids should pay the price of a university education to a club or academy when the narrowest of margin have a chance of ever making a dime from the game? Wouldn't that money be better suited in a RESP for almost all of them?

[L.T.]

Show me the money!!

The Whitecaps have a sugar daddy, and TFC runs only two teams with a bare-bones staff... Neither is making money from their youth setup, which is the only way to get rid of pay-to-play long term. Varying levels of pay-to-play produces athletes for every other sport in North America. To think that soccer could remove it entirely, given our current financial structure, is not realistic.

We need to be creative, those that can afford it, will pay, those that can't can be subsidized or sponsored. I'm sure many parents have found many ways to spend a lot more money and get less to show for it, than by putting their kids through a legitimate high performance soccer program...

By trying to develop a totally free system, we become strictly limited by resources, meaning we have little room for error in selecting which 13/14/15 year olds are worthy of our limited resources. IMO, better to have a 'pay what you can' system so that we are selecting potential national team players from a pool of hundreds rather than dozens...

[VPjr]

The reality is that there are no easy answers for the systemic problems that plague Canadian soccer but I certainly applaud DeVos' efforts. Its a good debate

In general, I am more on the same page with LT and his ideas. I am 100% in favor of establishing a network of "charter clubs" / "centers of excellence". These charter clubs can be existing clubs, new clubs created out of the merger of existing club or even the non-sanctioned academies...essentially, whatever groups can meet the minimum standards (and those standards need to be incredibly stringent) can earn the coveted designation. The US is doing this with its USSF Development Academy program. It might be challenging to make this happen in Canada, especially the way our clubs are structured (generating most of their revenue from rec soccer) but I would love to see this concept given a chance to succeed, even if only in a couple of provinces on a pilot project basis to work out the bugs.

However, being realistic, there are parts of Jason's proposals that are more palatable than the current realities. Specifically, I am Ok with the regional training center expansion that Jason is advocating but only under the following conditions:

- The provincial all star team programs are essentially done away with. In a province like Ontario, we would be better off with a series of regional training centers, training under qualified coaches (in my opinion, National B license would be the minimum) than with just 1 provincial team.

- players invited to train with regional programs MUST be free of charge to ensure that no players are left behind. No matter what the provincial coaches like to believe, if the system is pay to train, you won't have the best players involved in these programs.

- at the oldest age groups, the regional teams should be the players' full time team and they should be competing against the other regional teams and/or competing in regional senior soccer leagues to give the players the highest possible level of competition week in-week out. This would also be useful in developing coaches. We have all these coaches across Canada who are earning a nice paycheque as CSA staff coaches, NTC/RTC coaches or provincial all star coaches but how often do they get the chance to test their own ability as game day coaches. This is the only way I can conceive of to provide objective evaluation of how good (or bad) these coaches are.

I still prefer the provinces/districts/regions to be involved in administration, not player development but, like L.T. says, the governing bodies are loathe to give up this role so there needs to be discussion about how to make the best out of a less than ideal situation.