prizby Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 http://www.thestar.com/Sports/Soccer/article/622414 750 big ones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nolando Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 More like just 750 "ones". In MLS, though, that is probably fat cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Good. I wonder if Carver ever stopped to think that if he wasn't constantly berating the refs and fourth official the whole game for every minor thing that his team might get the benefit of the doubt more often. I wonder if he stopped to think that if TFC had better players and a coach who could figure out how to use them that they would commit less fouls and draw more. Carver states: "Now, you tell me how a guy who's running flat out can change direction having to have his arms down by his side. It's impossible," Carver said after the game. A real coach, even one at an amateur level makes all his players and especially defenders practice this move regularly. Apparently Carver has his players running around the field pretending to be airplanes like Marshall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly Carver states: "Now, you tell me how a guy who's running flat out can change direction having to have his arms down by his side. It's impossible," Carver said after the game. A real coach, even one at an amateur level makes all his players and especially defenders practice this move regularly. How's it done though? I think Carver generally does too much whining & shouting on the sidelines - but I also don't understand how a person possibly can run flat out and keep his arms down by his side at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca How's it done though? I think Carver generally does too much whining & shouting on the sidelines - but I also don't understand how a person possibly can run flat out and keep his arms down by his side at the same time. Whether you have your arms high or low, they should be tucked in to your body. This is how soccer players train to run and in fact it is much faster to run and easier to turn like this than having your arms extended at 90 degree angles ala Marshall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuirtonPark Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 If you watch the replay of the "penalty" infraction, it seems like the Dallas player sized up Wynne's position, put his toe under the ball and flicked it up towards Wynne's arm - leading to the obvious thought that it was a deliberate move by the Dallas player to draw a penalty. Certainly wasn't an attempted cross. I think John Carver has a point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 quote:Originally posted by MuirtonPark If you watch the replay of the "penalty" infraction, it seems like the Dallas player sized up Wynne's position, put his toe under the ball and flicked it up towards Wynne's arm - leading to the obvious thought that it was a deliberate move by the Dallas player to draw a penalty. Certainly wasn't an attempted cross. I think John Carver has a point. That was exactly what I thought of when I saw it. I seem to recall a while back, Roberto Baggio winning a PK at a world cup while dribbling the ball near the box whereby a defender was nearby. That exact incident, you seldom see called anymore. Seems to me that the refs have become much more leanient as far as hand balls. If its ball to hand, and the hands are down on the side in a static position, you seldom see a foul called anymore. I completely agree with Carver and Wynne that it was not intentional, but on the other hand, I dont know what you do or what you open the door to, if you dont call that one. How is the ref truly supposed to know intent unless he can read the mind? if teh refs lets that one go, then players might start to think that you can use your arms as shield, as long as you dont move them towards the ball. This is more of an incident that highlights the need for rule changes to the game or clarifications in the rules. In a play like that, i'd like to see a penalty called but not a penalty kick even though it occurred in teh box. Again, I am certain that the Dallas player played that to gain a penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 quote:Originally posted by MuirtonPark If you watch the replay of the "penalty" infraction, it seems like the Dallas player sized up Wynne's position, put his toe under the ball and flicked it up towards Wynne's arm - leading to the obvious thought that it was a deliberate move by the Dallas player to draw a penalty. Certainly wasn't an attempted cross. I think John Carver has a point. What? are you serious.... if the Dallas players did that GOOD FOR HIM, he's team won the game and next year no body will remember about how they won. We Canadians have to stop once and for all with this false sense of fair play crap that is taking us no where. WE NEED TO WIN GAMES...... WHO CARES HOW!!!!!!!!!!!! P.S. John Carver has no point, he can start making points when his team starts winning games!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Free kick That was exactly what I thought of when I saw it. I seem to recall a while back, Roberto Baggio winning a PK at a world cup while dribbling the ball near the box whereby a defender was nearby. That exact incident, you seldom see called anymore. Here it is to illustrate your point. Fast forward to min 6:15 I don't remember hearing the Chileans crying about it for so long and that was a world cup. It's the law of the jungle out there, only the strongest and the wiser survive. If people don't like it they should watch chess, no cheating there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 I think the play in the Dallas game was too fast to be deliberate and it was intended as a cross. However, that is absolutely immaterial because defenders are not allowed to flail their arms about in the box like Marshall was doing. I don't see why it is such a hard concept for people to understand that players need to keep their arms down in the box. Otherwise every player would be running around with their arms extended. In the Baggio incident the crucial difference was the defenders arm was by his side not stretched out. Edit: Have mixed feelings whether this should have been a penalty or not. On the one hand the defender does not have his arm out of place and the contact is not intentional. On the other he does stop a shot with his hand which is not permitted and it is not Baggio's fault that the defender had his hand where it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 We need all around wiser soccer players in our country, that's all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Here's an interesting comment I've read about this PK on the BS referee forum (it seems that's a ref who wrote that): Looks like a good PK call to me. Player's arms up in that way does not seem natural to me. Players are getting smarter. One way they have started trying to get a leg up on the opponent is by this sort of seemingly innocent or natural arm placement where the arm is in a place that might end up blocking a ball played by the opponent from going through. The memo and guidance we have received from USSF regarding a player making himself bigger is, overall, very good. In my opinion, this DAL/TOR incident is a textbook example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly I think the play in the Dallas game was too fast to be deliberate and it was intended as a cross. However, that is absolutely immaterial because defenders are not allowed to flail their arms about in the box like Marshall was doing. I don't see why it is such a hard concept for people to understand that players need to keep their arms down in the box. Otherwise every player would be running around with their arms extended. In the Baggio incident the crucial difference was the defenders arm was by his side not stretched out. Edit: Have mixed feelings whether this should have been a penalty or not. On the one hand the defender does not have his arm out of place and the contact is not intentional. On the other he does stop a shot with his hand which is not permitted and it is not Baggio's fault that the defender had his hand where it was. Agree. This is why I'm not a fan of the PK rule. Italy and Baggio clearly didn't deserved a PK on that play in term of merit. It's not a clear goalscoring chance but they still gain a PK (just like Dallas Sunday). IMO, it still a handball and the ref applied the rule correctly by giving a PK but it was very harsh on Chile. The PK rule is too much of an important part of soccer to modify it but I think it would make more sense if it was awarded only on clear goalscoring chance and that even if the foul happened outside the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 There you go "Players are getting smarter". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 quote:Originally posted by loyola Agree. This is why I'm not a fan of the PK rule. Italy and Baggio clearly didn't deserved a PK on that play in term of merit. It's not a clear goalscoring chance but they still gain a PK (just like Dallas Sunday). IMO, it still a handball and the ref applied the rule correctly by giving a PK but it was very harsh on Chile. The PK rule is too much of an important part of soccer to modify it but I think it would make more sense if it was awarded only on clear goalscoring chance and that even if the foul happened outside the box. I agree with this. There is an argument that incidents like the Baggio one and the one we are discussing are not fair awardings of penalty kicks because a clear scoring chance was not taken away. However, the penalty against Toronto was correct in that it was a correct application of the rules as they now stand. If the TFC fans or Carver are upset they should be upset with the rules not with how they were applied. Both teams know the rules before they start the game and have to abide by them. Another example of this is the USA-Germany game in which a German defender unintentionally stopped the ball from entering the net with his hand. It was not called a penalty but in my opinion absolutely should have been a penalty because a goal was stopped with the hand intentionally or not. It is at about 3 minutes in to this video: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 quote:Originally posted by loyola Here's an interesting comment I've read about this PK on the BS referee forum (it seems that's a ref who wrote that): Looks like a good PK call to me. Player's arms up in that way does not seem natural to me. Players are getting smarter. One way they have started trying to get a leg up on the opponent is by this sort of seemingly innocent or natural arm placement where the arm is in a place that might end up blocking a ball played by the opponent from going through. The memo and guidance we have received from USSF regarding a player making himself bigger is, overall, very good. In my opinion, this DAL/TOR incident is a textbook example. I totally agree with this assessment, defenders will keep that arm out and then play the "ball-to-arm" argument in hopes of trying to gain an advantage. IMO if you keep your arm fully outstretched while in the box you're just asking for it. BTW, i've reviewed the video of the play again and two things strike me. One, it was not a cross, it looks like Ferreira was trying to tap the ball back onto his right foot. Second, although Wynne was playing catch up he was not going at full speed. To me it looks like a case of carelessness. Have a look half-way through: Link edit: The link points to the whole highlight package. If you click on "Cooper scores a brace" in the right-hand column it will take you to the 2 Copper goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trillium Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Its a clear hand ball with intent a good call the defender arm hesitates he has control of his arm and he brings it to the ball its hand to ball, not ball to hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prizby Posted April 23, 2009 Author Share Posted April 23, 2009 im pretty sure anyone who is running like that, and going into a quick stop like Wynne was, is going to have their arms out for balance, that is only natural i really hope Carver pays his fine in British notes and when he mails in his fine i hope he attaches a british rule book with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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