Dallas vs. TFC - Sun. April 19th

[jpg75]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

It doesn't matter what reason Wynne had to keep his arms out like that. A defender needs to keep his arms at his side in the box. If he has them stretched out and the ball hits them it is a penalty.

I agree. Defenders the world over could run around with their arms outstretched (in hopes of gaining an advantage) and then using the ball-to-arm argument in their defence.

No reason for Wynne to have his arm out like that, the guy just doesn't use his head sometimes.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

This is shamelessly cut and pasted from a post by Sully on the RPB forum, but I think people need to check what the rules actually say on this:-

FIFA - LAW 12 #8211; FOULS AND MISCONDUCT

A direct free kick is also awarded to the opposing team if a player

commits any of the following three offences:

#8226; holds an opponent

#8226; spits at an opponent

#8226; handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his

own penalty area)

If there is no intent it shouldn't be called. I think it is very difficult to make a convincing case that Wynne intended to handle the ball in that situation.

[Vancouversoccerman]

But the USSF (like all federations) also has instructions to referees on the interpretation of deliberate handling.

From the USSF memo in 2003:

"12.9 DELIBERATE HANDLING

The offense known as “handling the ball” involves deliberate contact with the ball by a player’s hand or arm (including fingertips, or outer shoulder). “Deliberate contact” means that the player could have avoided the touch but chose not to, that the player’s arms were not in a normal playing position at the time, or that the player deliberately continued an initially accidental contact for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage."

In 2005, the USSF went into greater detail on this:

What are the characteristics of a clear handling offense?

* A player deliberately carries, strikes, or propels the ball with the hand or arm

* It is the player’s action that initiates the contact with the ball

What characteristics of ball contact are clearly not handling offenses?

* The ball strikes the hand or arm (i.e., the ball initiates the contact)

* The contact is accidental (not the result of action by the player)

* The contact is the result of a purely reflexive effort at self-protection

What are the standards of judgment which the referee will apply when the handling offense is not immediately clear?

* The distance or time within which the player had to react to avoid contact – if there was time to avoid the contact, the likelihood of an offense is greater

* The position of the player’s hand or arm at the time of the contact – if the hand or arm is carried in an unnatural or unusual position (e.g., high up in the air or, while defending against a free kick, far away from the body), the likelihood of an offense is greater.

* Directing the ball after initial accidental or reflexive contact – if the player takes advantage to control or push the ball away, a handling offense has occurred.

In this case, the referee ruled it was deliberate handling due to the fact that Wynne's outstretched arm caused the handling, and that his arm was not in a natural playing position.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Well aware of all that. My opinion stated earlier was that Wynne's arm was where it was so he could keep his balance and was therefore not in an unnatural or unusual position. Anyway, that shouldn't be the main talking point right now. Whether John Carver has what it takes as a coachand whether he is using the players at his disposal to best effect should really be the focus.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

This is shamelessly cut and pasted from a post by Sully on the RPB forum, but I think people need to check what the rules actually say on this:-

FIFA - LAW 12 #8211; FOULS AND MISCONDUCT

A direct free kick is also awarded to the opposing team if a player

commits any of the following three offences:

#8226; holds an opponent

#8226; spits at an opponent

#8226; handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his

own penalty area)

If there is no intent it shouldn't be called. I think it is very difficult to make a convincing case that Wynne intended to handle the ball in that situation.

There's no way you make a no-call on that kind of play. First, Wynne arms are streched and aren't close to his body (that's a no call when you can say the arms are part of the body). Second, the handball did affect the play since it help Wynne make a defensive play. I would argue that having your arms strech like that would be interpret as being a deliberate handball by FIFA refs.

I've seen that call made 100 times and rarely seen a no-call on such a play. There was very little reaction from the TFC players because it was the correct call (except Carver who spend all the games I've watch talking to the 4th official instead of coaching).

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I am willing to concede, Loyola, that most refs will call that. That doesn't necessarily mean it is the correct call. If you see it differently from that then we will clearly just have to agree to disagree. Think the focus should really be on John Carver and his tactical and selection decisions. If DeRosario and Serioux are out for the next two home games he is really up against it now as the run of early home games was supposed to provide a quick start to the season and if that fails to materialize questions will start to be asked by the powers that be.

[ag futbol]

Forget the handball, TFC tactically was a mess against a below average Dallas team. There was zero sign of them being able to create chances and the defensive shape was like a house of cards. Not sure if i have the stomch to watch this team get destroyed by Chivas on Wednesday minus Dero and Serioux.

The sad part is we can't really even assess how good our roster is right now because the pieces are being so brutally mis-used.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

There is no balance to the team right now. De Rosario and Guevara are trying to play the same role too much of the time, while an 18 year is playing on the left when he clearly isn't even 100% comfortable using his left foot and a rookie is playing the right very conservatively to avoid making mistakes. The lone out and out striker is a drastically one-sided player and struggles badly when there is no target man to feed him the ball where he wants it. At the back maintaining possession and having a patient build-up is difficult as Wynne and Brennan are incapable of putting their foot on the ball and slowing things down and Harmse although he is far from a disaster should only be used as cover at the MLS level. Maybe some of the resources that have been used on players who are now sitting regularly on the bench should have been used on a naturally left sided midfielder and another centre half? That's where Mo Johnston's role also needs to be examined.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

If DeRosario and Serioux are out for the next two home games he is really up against it now as the run of early home games was supposed to provide a quick start to the season and if that fails to materialize questions will start to be asked by the powers that be.

That's the same thing I'm wondering about. However, should these guys be out for sure, then I'm hoping we'll see some other guys pick up the slack in the face of adversity.

I'm glad TFC doesn't have Burse in goal!

[BearcatSA]

It was interesting to listen to DeVos' post match comments on the GOL TV broadcast. He was describing Serioux's strong play tonight and added that he would benefit even more from having an experienced defensive partner to do the talking and organizing in the back line...

...sounds like he'd fit that job description.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by BearcatSA

It was interesting to listen to DeVos' post match comments on the GOL TV broadcast. He was describing Serioux's strong play tonight and added that he would benefit even more from having an experienced defensive partner to do the talking and organizing in the back line...

...sounds like he'd fit that job description.

He certainly would but he has also made it clear that his arthritis and back back would not allow it. He's also said that if he could still play, he'd still be with Ipswich.

Wouldn't it be nice though!

[bettermirror]

I know attendance was very low in Dallas. However, 6800 in a league which has an extremely low salary cap shouldn't really be a big deal. How much are the clubs getting in sponsorship?? Teams in leagues all over Europe survive on 6800 and pay their players much more than most MLS players!

[Lord Bob]

I don't have a source for this in front of me, so take this for what it's worth.

My understanding is that most MLS teams do peanuts on sponsorship, ancillary revenues, merchandising, etc. They rely almost exclusively on gate proceeds, which poses a problem if attendance dips.

Now, the good news is that the salary cap is set very intelligently and the league turns a nice profit, so FC Dallas probably isn't going to explode in a USL-style flameout any time soon. But there is cause for concern.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

FC Dallas do have the Pizza Hut stadium naming rights deal for $30 million over 20 years, which no doubt helps where the SSS is concerned along with concerts and youth soccer field rentals. Having the hoops maybe makes landing a jersey sponsor more difficult but other MLS teams have been able to get upwards of $1 million a season that way. That's probably another area where they need to get their act together.

[Guest speedmonk42]

No reason for Wynne to have his arm out like that, the guy just doesn't use his head sometimes.

-------

Stopping and changing direction perhaps? ever do that with your arms to your side?

He didn't do anything wrong, it was just unfortunate.

[Tuscan]

Any ref in Europe would have called that one. Hell, I've seen even less blatant ones called where the guys arm was pretty much right along the side of his body if not right against it, and it was still called. Sh*tty way to lose a game, they really did deserve the point they should have come home with. Losing DeRo and Serioux (have they said if he's out for Wednesday?) at the end there just added to the garbage way this one ended.

No one should doubt that TFC played well to get those two goals. I really thought they'd completely turned it around at the point Barrett scored (finally...) as the run of play seemed to swing well into their favour. I'm certain they would have gotten the winner had FCD not gotten that crappy penalty.

While there seems to be a LOT of negativity spewing on here right now, TFC does seem to be showing signs that things are getting better, that the team is beginning to gel. Hopefully the injuries today don't reverse all this. Cheer up emo kids, this isn't the end of the world.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

It was easier to take a string of bad results in season one, Tuscan, when TFC were obviously not as good as most of the other teams. This season the players are there to do well so it is John Carver's job to get the best out of the team and get points on the board. I watched the Chivas vs Seattle game this weekend and neither are anything particularly spectacular and both have players in key roles that many TFC fans were happy to see the back of. They know how to keep possession and build the play up patiently and when there is an opening it doesn't look like an amateur team trying to finish when the ball falls onto somebody's left foot but a well balanced team playing a traditional British 4-4-2 properly could do some damage against them when weather conditions permit a high tempo for 90 minutes.

[Eric]

^ Pardon my ignorance, how's a british 4-4-2?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Not got the time to give you all the details. Might try to find a link later.

[Eric]

Yes thank you, I'll wait for it.

[Calgary Boomer]

I've seen lots of those hand-balls not called. I always think common sense should prevail. The Dallas player was looking for a penalty to begin with...he stopped playing the minute the ball hit hand. The other issue should be whether the hand ball took an advantage away from the Dallas player, or advantaged Wynne. It didn't really. I thought the call was harsh.

The square ball by DeRo that led to the 2-0 goal was brutal.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer

I've seen lots of those hand-balls not called. I always think common sense should prevail. The Dallas player was looking for a penalty to begin with...he stopped playing the minute the ball hit hand. The other issue should be whether the hand ball took an advantage away from the Dallas player, or advantaged Wynne. It didn't really. I thought the call was harsh.

The square ball by DeRo that led to the 2-0 goal was brutal.

Any player in the world is going to stop playing when the ball hits a defender's hand in the box. That is not looking for a penalty it is indicating to the ref that a penalty infraction has occurred. Nor is it any argument to say that the play wasn't dangerous. The player indented to play the ball back to a teammate rushing forward. Since the ball never got to that player we do not know if it would have been a dangerous scoring opportunity or not.

It was unfortunate for Wynne but is also indicative of poor technique. It doesn't matter if he is turning or off balance, professional defenders train to do those things without their arms flailing about precisely because that can lead to handballs.

[AvroArrow]

Let's be honest, you can't blame Carver for Guevera blasting the ball over the net when he was 5 feet away from it and Barret blasting the ball into the side of the net on a partial breakaway.

Both of these chances happened when the score was 0-0 and TFC didn't even force an apparently shakey keeper to make a save.

I guess you could blame Carver for putting these two guys on the field, but I think we would all start Guevera and Barrett did score the goal to make it 2-2.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Eric

Yes thank you, I'll wait for it.

Not found any good links so to give the edited highlights I am thinking in terms of how England played in the 1966 World Cup under Sir Alf Ramsay. Basically a flat back four with one of the full backs able to go on the overlap when the team has possession, a diamond midfield with no wingers and a target man with a goal-scoring striker up front. Easy enough to google the key elements on that. The difference between the traditional British way of doing it and the approach that tended to be used in some other countries in the early days of 4-4-2 was that a stopper sweeper system could also used in central defence with the sweeper sometimes joining the attack. Franz Beckenbauer of Germany was famous for that.

TFC at the moment do elements of a British style 4-4-2 but don't really put it all together. For example Wynne was making what could be viewed as overlapping runs on the right from time to time against FC Dallas last night, but on the left Ibrahim was playing more like a winger and Brennan was not really getting forward the way he is capable of. Meanwhile DeRosario and DeGuzman are both effectively winding up trying to be like Bobby Charlton at the top of a midfield diamond a lot of the time so there is no target man up front to hold the ball up to set Barrett up where he needs it on his right foot. Unfortunately there is no sustained attempt to maintain possession the way Chivas do as would be required to use DeRosario and especially Guevara to full effect in that sort of tactical system so they can get the ball to Barrett under control. Instead, there is still a direct style even in the absence of an obvious target man because some players appear completely incapable of doing anything else.

If DeRosario was able/willing to play on the left in midfield as was tried against Seattle and Dichio was still up to playing the full 90 up front the team could actually play a long ball oriented 4-4-2 quite effectively at this time of year. Right now it's a bit of a mess tactically with different parts of the team playing in ways best suited to markedly different tactical systems but the talent is there to make it work sporadically. Beginning to look very much like Dichio should have retired with some younger player being signed to replace him and that it should have been a case of DeRosario or Guevara but not both if they can only be used centrally. It would need a major overhaul of the rest of the team (left and right full back being top of the agenda) and a full switch to a possession oriented style to be able to use them both effectively like that.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by loyola

Frei is good, really good.

He is, but from the highlights I saw of the game yesterday one thing he needs to work on is coming off his line at the right time & with enough presence to command the 6 yard box. While there is clearly a marking error on the first Dallas goal (it looked like Barrett let his man go) I felt that was still a cross that the keeper could have come off his line to claim - it was just inside the 6 yard box and not exactly rocketed in there by the guy doing the cross. Its something I've noticed in his game previously but I think this is the first time its cost TFC.