amacpher Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Scottie I don't see why we're comparing ourselves to australia in this thread It's called jealousy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 ^ That may be so for some people but I certainly don't feel that way. I would rather see Canadian teams competing in a Canada-USA league at a high level that rattling along with third/fourth rate players in a third rate domestic league which could never compete for fans, sponsors and players. The Australian A-League has no local competition, it is the top level in Australia and New Zealand. That would never be the case in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 Perhaps worth noting that things haven't been going quite so well for the A league this year:- http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/12/09/expansion-alone-wont-save-a-league-crowds-2/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SthMelbRed Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 ^The article alludes to a couple of weekends where no crowds topped 10,000. If I had to hazard a guess, the four matches during those weeks would have been home dates for Newcastle, Central Coast, Perth, and Queensland. If a week comes around when Melbourne Victory, Sydney FC, and Adelaide United all happen to be playing away, your crowd numbers are going to be down. Victory averages 25,000 to 30,000 fans per game and will draw close to 40,000 when Sydney's in town. Sydney's numbers are probably close to the same. Adelaide's stadium only holds about 16,000 and they often fill it and are usually close. For an idea about crowd numbers in places like Central Coast or Newcastle, imagine what kind of crowd would turn out if there were MLS matches in Victoria and Kelowna. The A-league is not exactly playing exclusively in large metro centers. What the A-league needs to be, and what it will undoubtedly turn into, is a shop window for talent. Young Australian players can get the chance to be spotted playing in a professional environment so they can make the jump to bigger, better leagues. Even more importantly, in my opinion, it needs to be a shop window for Australian coaches and managers. Australian soccer is a bit like the CFL in the way that the same-old, tired retreads keep cropping up with a new club after getting the boot from another club. Promising coaches like Aurelio Vidmar (the manager who took Adelaide way above their station to the AFC CL final) need to use the A-league as a springboard to bigger opportunities abroad where they can acquire knowledge that they can eventually bring back to Australia and pass on to a new generation of coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 quote:Originally posted by SthMelbRed Even more importantly, in my opinion, it needs to be a shop window for Australian coaches and managers. Nail square on the head. There are only so many positions for Canadian coaches, that we don't have any real number coaching a professional side. TFC and Vancouver are coached by foreigners, the Impact has a rookie coach (and had another local rookie prior to him), and the past national team coaches are whoever happened to coach Vancouver (Mitchell, Lenarduzzi), with Yallop and Osieck in there too. With 8 pro teams, you're looking at at least 5-6 local coaches getting pro experience every year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 ^ couldn't agree with you more Daniel. There is so little incentive for coaches in Canada to strive to be the best they can be because there are so few avenues open to them for making a living at coaching. We need more fully professional teams for BOTH players and coaches to get opportunities to develop their abilities. It upsets me to no end that TFC doesn't have a single Canadian coach on the senior roster staff (I will give them credit for an all-Canadian coaching staff with the Academy though). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 For all the ragging he received, a guy like Dale Mitchell, who HAS proven competent at least domestically, would have somewhere to look to. Right now he's hanging on to his job like grim death because short of coaching the Whitecaps, there aren't any pro-level jobs available to him outside the CSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 quote:Originally posted by VPjr It upsets me to no end that TFC doesn't have a single Canadian coach on the senior roster staff (I will give them credit for an all-Canadian coaching staff with the Academy though). Isn't Dasovic the second assistant to Carver (after Cummins), in addition to his duties as Academy head coach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Rudi Isn't Dasovic the second assistant to Carver (after Cummins), in addition to his duties as Academy head coach? that's possible Rudi but I've honestly never noticed Nick on the bench for a game. On the website, he's listed as Academy Head Coach. Does anyone know if TFC is permitted to operate more than 1 Academy? I'd be curious to know if they would ever consider operating a few regional academies, which would create more opportunities for players and coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 It's all very well to go on about needing a domestic pro league to provide more domestic opportunities for pro coaching and playing. We've been down this road countless times and it is a non-starter for the foreseeable future for reasons that have been listed here over and over again, not the least of which is a dirth of willing investors. For longterm, fulltime pro coaching jobs and playing opportunities we need a league that can sustain itself economically. Our existing three pro clubs are not going to give up their spots in USL/MLS to have a go in a domestic league in the hope it will flourish and there is no sign of anything else on the horison. The CSL is not a fulltime pro model for anybody and won't be for a long time, if ever. Canada is not the equivalent of Australia in the Australia-New Zealand relationship, we are the New Zealand equivalent. The harsh reality is two, maybe three MLS clubs and with a lot of luck maybe a couple more USL-1 clubs is the best we can hope for in terms of top level, fulltime professional job opportunities, otherwise keep dreaming guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbailey62 Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Richard It's all very well to go on about needing a domestic pro league to provide more domestic opportunities for pro coaching and playing. We've been down this road countless times and it is a non-starter for the foreseeable future for reasons that have been listed here over and over again, not the least of which is a dirth of willing investors. For longterm, fulltime pro coaching jobs and playing opportunities we need a league that can sustain itself economically. Our existing three pro clubs are not going to give up their spots in USL/MLS to have a go in a domestic league in the hope it will flourish and there is no sign of anything else on the horison. The CSL is not a fulltime pro model for anybody and won't be for a long time, if ever. Canada is not the equivalent of Australia in the Australia-New Zealand relationship, we are the New Zealand equivalent. The harsh reality is two, maybe three MLS clubs and with a lot of luck maybe a couple more USL-1 clubs is the best we can hope for in terms of top level, fulltime professional job opportunities, otherwise keep dreaming guys. IMO, Richards speaks truth! Sure, we can continue to dream about a future "true" Canadian Soccer League but at this point in time (and for the foreseeable future IMO), that's as far as it can go. The less said about the current C(P)SL (at least in regards to a future and truly professional set up in this country) the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 The CSA club model published a while back advocates clubs employ fulltime, professional head coaches. From what I have observed in BC this idea has been spreading like wildfire. Almost every youth club worth its salt has a paid professional head coach or technical director, and many of these clubs are extending their activities to provide cradle-to-grave playing opportunities. This has been a grand job creation opportunity both for experienced coaches and for retired professional players. Now if we could evolve towards regional and ultimately national leagues for these clubs we would be closer than ever before to the dream, but this will take many years still and some very farsighted club executives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag futbol Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Richard The CSA club model published a while back advocates clubs employ fulltime, professional head coaches. From what I have observed in BC this idea has been spreading like wildfire. Almost every youth club worth its salt has a paid professional head coach or technical director, and many of these clubs are extending their activities to provide cradle-to-grave playing opportunities. This has been a grand job creation opportunity both for experienced coaches and for retired professional players. Now if we could evolve towards regional and ultimately national leagues for these clubs we would be closer than ever before to the dream, but this will take many years still and some very farsighted club executives. I've noticed this too, a lot of clubs are stepping up and starting to hire full-time TD's. Now if only they could stop letting everybody and their dog into "competitive" leagues, we might actually be able to seperate the truely competitive from the pretenders, and produce better players to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SthMelbRed Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 The biggest difference between Canada and Australia is not the fact that they have a low-level (playing standard-wise), national, professional league and we don't. They have a better developed, competitive club system for football. Here in Victoria (the Australian state, not the provincial capital), there is a state league run by the FFV with a pro/rel pyramid from the Premier division, which is semi-professional, through State 1, 2, and 3, down to provisional 1, 2, and 3, which are regionalised. My club, which currently plays in a regional amateur league is looking to go state next year. Once we do, we will theoretically be six promotions away from the top league in the state, which is officially one step down from the A-league. However good your first team is, you will find your competitive level. If your standard drops, you face the threat of relegation. If your good enough you'll be promoted. In BC, once you leave youth soccer, you join a men's league. The best men's team in Prince George or Kamloops doesn't get to compete in a league with the best men's teams from Vancouver or Victoria or Trail. Hell, even in Vancouver you have several competing men's leagues with no interleague competition. The same level of competitiveness does not exist in Canada for senior players as it does in Australia. That is why we will not be able to compete with Australia over the long-term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearcatSA Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 ^What's the farthest you have to travel within your Victoria state league? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SthMelbRed Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 On Richard's point about cradle-to-grave playing opportunities, that is the reality here in Australia already. South Melbourne Hellas, who came close to a shock result against Manchester United in the 2000 Club World Cup, compete in the Victorian State Premier division. They also field boys' and girls' youth teams from the age of five onwards and a men's veterans' side. They are a football club in the truest sense of the word. Most teams competing in the state Premier, 1st, and 2nd divisions are the senior teams for similarly structured clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SthMelbRed Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 In theory, you might have to travel up to four or five hours for a match if you're in one of the top three divisions. In reality, though, most of the big clubs are located within or very close to Melbourne, so the travel is not so great. If a similar league did exist in BC, the overwhelming concentration of teams would be in the Lower Mainland or southern island, with the occasional representation from a team from the Prince George, the Okanagan, or the Kootenays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearcatSA Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 quote:Originally posted by SthMelbRed In theory, you might have to travel up to four or five hours for a match if you're in one of the top three divisions. In reality, though, most of the big clubs are located within or very close to Melbourne, so the travel is not so great. If a similar league did exist in BC, the overwhelming concentration of teams would be in the Lower Mainland or southern island, with the occasional representation from a team from the Prince George, the Okanagan, or the Kootenays. Thanks for responding and the interesting perspective:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macksam Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Well, we don't have a league of our own unfortunately. However, we do have three professional clubs that people actually know about now, and possibly a fourth one if Ottawa gets into MLS. If we get a couple more USL clubs going, we could become comparable to Australia club-football wise. It's no Argentine Primera division, which in my opinion is the best league outside of Europe, but it's definately better than having close to nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 The Pacific Coast Soccer League with clubs from Kamloops, Kelowna, Penticton, Chilliwack, the Lower Mainland, South Vancouver Island and Washington State is the only league in British Columbia that comes close to being truly regional or province-wide and it includes men's and women's premier and reserve divisions. I would like to see the PCSL move its reserve divisions from being primarily U-21 to open age first divisions with promotion and relegation to premier and in time extend its season and raise its profile to the level the league enjoyed earlier in its 77+ year history (which is already happening). If this means some teams returning to semi-pro status all well and good. There has been almost unprecedented interest from clubs wishing to join the PCSL which is rapidly reaching the point of having to maintain a waiting list. There certainly seems to be zero political will or interest on the part of the provincial association or existing senior winter leagues to build any kind of senior, competitive province-wide league. I hasten to add that this evolution is my personal view and in no way yet represents the view of the board or the membership and it probably won't happen any time soon for a whole host of reasons, not the least of which is opposition from those involved in the game from outside the PCSL who insist on playing the old, hackneyed power-political games from which the PCSL strives to remain apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SthMelbRed Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 ^If the PCSL were to expand to have several divisions with promotion/relegation, it'd be an improvement on what we currently have. However, a club would have to be accepted into the PCSL in order to play in the top division. That puts politics and other considerations in the frame. The only thing that should play a factor in a club playing in the top division should be that they earned the right on the field. That's why we need a province-wide structure which, in theory, allows any club to win their way to the top of the pyramid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Well you can't have unlimited access to any league no matter how good the aspiring clubs are. Eventually yes/no decisions must be made. With a promotion/relegation system new clubs can begin in the lower division and earn their promotion, that surely is much better than buying a spot as happens with some leagues now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 The only conditions that need to be in place are related to having the necessary access to suitable facilities and demonstrating that sufficient finances are in place. Beyond that any club should be able to enter at the bottom and work their way up to the top based solely on what happens on the field of play where district and provincial level amateur/semi-pro leagues are concerned. Different story with leagues that are North American (i.e. US and Canada) in scope because of the scale of the financial outlay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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