canucklefan Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 quote:Originally posted by loyola That's a good example of what I was referring to when I alluded to the "facebook friendship" of fans and players in Canada. We aren't exactly acting like English or Argentinian fans would do if their players were caught dancing after a crucial loss in a WCQ game. The fact is here's not like England or Argentina. What happened here after the Montreal game happened because the press and people could care less about the CMNT, and therefore, there are so many here in Canada who doesn't know who is JDG. And I don't think a little community of us, the Voyageurs, have enough power to change theses kind of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucklefan Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 quote:Originally posted by loyola That's a good example of what I was referring to when I alluded to the "facebook friendship" of fans and players in Canada. We aren't exactly acting like English or Argentinian fans would do if their players were caught dancing after a crucial loss in a WCQ game. The fact is here's not like England or Argentina. What happened here after the Montreal game happened because the press and people could care less about the CMNT, and therefore, there are so many here in Canada who doesn't know who is JDG. And I don't think a little community of us, the Voyageurs, have enough power to change theses kind of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 quote:Originally posted by canucklefan The fact is here's not like England or Argentina. What happened here after the Montreal game happened because the press and people could care less about the CMNT, and therefore, there are so many here in Canada who doesn't know who is JDG. And I don't think a little community of us, the Voyageurs, have enough power to change theses kind of things. This is exactly my point but our players shouldn't like that if they were more professional... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 quote:Originally posted by canucklefan The fact is here's not like England or Argentina. What happened here after the Montreal game happened because the press and people could care less about the CMNT, and therefore, there are so many here in Canada who doesn't know who is JDG. And I don't think a little community of us, the Voyageurs, have enough power to change theses kind of things. This is exactly my point but our players shouldn't like that if they were more professional... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 quote:Originally posted by loyola This is exactly my point but our players shouldn't like that if they were more professional... Let us not throw words around. Perhaps you can clarify to me what exactly do you mean by "professional". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 quote:Originally posted by loyola This is exactly my point but our players shouldn't like that if they were more professional... Let us not throw words around. Perhaps you can clarify to me what exactly do you mean by "professional". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearcatSA Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 quote:Originally posted by loyola My explanation guess is that players in Honduras feel the fans pressure on their shoulder and really wants to win. Here in Canada, the players are waiting for the fans to add them as a friend on facebook and get an invitation for the next party... Facebook fans: I like it! I'm going to use that term in one of my future posts, loyola. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucklefan Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 quote:Originally posted by BearcatSA Facebook fans: I like it! I'm going to use that term in one of my future posts, loyola. About facebook friendship, I don't see anything wrong there. It happens because canadians players have a facebook account and they are our favourites ones and it's ok. What it's ridiculous it's Maradona with the argentinean fans who consider him as god (by the way I don't think he was the best of the century, Pele was way better and maybe a few others), but that's another history. And it's true that players in other countries have more pressure than our players but that doesn't mean their fans don't love their players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 One interesting tidbit in this article is the cost associated with the home matches. If the cost is approximately $400k, the break even point at $30-40 per ticket is pretty reasonable if you ask me. I was never buying this "Home friendlies lose money" rubbish in the first place. I certainly won't now. Anyone of Serbia, Croatia, Greece, or Poland would provide a good match for and would easily sell out BMO. If we could schedule home and away fixtures, we might even be able to cut out some cost. If we don't see some matches scheduled once teams start getting bounced from qualiying we should kick up a stink and challenge the Association to be better business people. Oh yeah, and fire Mitchell FFS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone One interesting tidbit in this article is the cost associated with the home matches. If the cost is approximately $400k, the break even point at $30-40 per ticket is pretty reasonable if you ask me. I was never buying this "Home friendlies lose money" rubbish in the first place. I certainly won't now. Anyone of Serbia, Croatia, Greece, or Poland would provide a good match for and would easily sell out BMO. If we could schedule home and away fixtures, we might even be able to cut out some cost. If we don't see some matches scheduled once teams start getting bounced from qualiying we should kick up a stink and challenge the Association to be better business people. Oh yeah, and fire Mitchell FFS! I might be mistaken but the difference between "friendlies" and "WCQ" is the home team will pick up the bill for the home friendlies, so it would add to the cost of the game. As for Greece, Croatia, etc., we have to be able to convince them to come play us in the first place which might not be simple. Speaking of possible friendlies, what about that home game against Iceland that was suppose to be played in 2008 or 2009 (agreement for the 2007 away game). That's something we should keep in mind to keep pressure on the CSA if they don't act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 quote:Originally posted by canucklefan About facebook friendship, I don't see anything wrong there. It happens because canadians players have a facebook account and they are our favourites ones and it's ok. What it's ridiculous it's Maradona with the argentinean fans who consider him as god (by the way I don't think he was the best of the century, Pele was way better and maybe a few others), but that's another history. And it's true that players in other countries have more pressure than our players but that doesn't mean their fans don't love their players. Oh yes, they love and hate their players in those countries....here we love them, we love them and we love them...we find excuses for them, we are even acting as their lawyers sometimes.... That's where the difference lies IMO. Hondurans fans love their players at the moment but if they finish 6th in the Hex the love will be replace by harsh critics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucklefan Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 quote:Originally posted by loyola Oh yes, they love and hate their players in those countries....here we love them, we love them and we love them...we find excuses for them, we are even acting as their lawyers sometimes.... That's where the difference lies IMO. Hondurans fans love their players at the moment but if they finish 6th in the Hex the love will be replace by harsh critics. I don't agree, it's not what I've seen on this forum after we failed to qualify to the hex, and when it's about CMNT, this forum is the reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 quote:Originally posted by BearcatSA Facebook fans: I like it! I'm going to use that term in one of my future posts, loyola. I'm glad you liked it! I'll keep an eye on your future posting...as I always do anyways since you're one of the best posters out here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Cheeta Oh, yeah. **** yeah. Players are robots. May as well be pieces on a chess board. Because you're right, we only ever see Canadian players performing to a different standard for different coaches. /sarcasm Exactly who is playing to a different standard under different coaches? The only two I can think of are JDG and Friend who are playing at a high level league and underperformed in WCQ. We needed JDG to play a far more offensive and creative role than he does at his club and he was unable to. Friend did not get the service he needed but was that Mitchell's fault or did we lack the type of speedy, technical forwards and mids who could feed him properly? Radz and Klukowski were playing at a decent level but also played well in WCQ. Gerba and Serioux performed better than could have been expected. Hutch was disappointing but has also stagnated at Copenhagen and is a pretty average player in an average league. Most of our other players are similar, average players in average leagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 quote:Originally posted by VPjr Grizzly, so I guess Harry Redknapp has nothing to do with 'Spurs revival? A manager contributes to a team's success or failure in a massive way. A great manager leading a mediocre side can achieve wonderful things. A lousy manager blessed with good players can make a horrible mess (again, see juande ramos with 'Spurs as only the most recent example...there have been too many examples to list them all). Just because Mitchell picked his "best" 18 players for the first 3 matches doesn't mean he was doing his job as well as he could or that he even possessed the ability to make best use of his "best" players. He was out of his depth and his players knew it. The team lacked unity and he was a contributing factor in the disharmony. I'm not even convinced the coaching staff was on the same page entirely. I do agree that the players did not play their best. They certainly did not play as a cohesive team. The blame for this must hang over the heads of every single person involved in the MNT group, from players to coaches to admins. You win as a team and you lose as a team. However, I will forever believe that Mitchell was the biggest cancer and it seems like you will always point the finger more squarely at the players. to each his own, I guess... No one will ever change my sincer belief that, with a better manager, this team makes the hex or at least challenges for a spot in the hex to the very last match. Noone has advocated more than myself that we need to hire a top coach for our MNT. Nor do I think Mitchell was the best person for the post. Yes, I do think good coaches can make a big difference but it is also necessary for them to have the players they need. In a club setting you can change the team and select the players you need and with the right type of attitude as your example Redknapp has done. In a good soccer nation with lots of depth you can also do likewise. Mitchell was pretty much stuck with the players he had. Mitchell selected the right players. There may be a few decisions one can quible with but most had to do with injuries (Hirschfeld, McKenna, Imhof) and Mitchell deciding to play those who had been available for training and earlier round games and familiar with the team. Some coaches favour this approach and others don't but it is a valid one. There are certainly better tacticians than Mitchell but his tactics weren't terrible either. He didn't put the players in a formation that they couldn't succeed with. Maybe he is lacking as motivator but these players are playing for their country to qualify for the greatest soccer tournament in the world. It is pretty pathetic if they need extra motivation for that. I am not trying to defend Mitchell but it was a mediocre coaching performance not a terrible one. The players on the other hand showed a complete lack of discipline, desire and heart. We had our best player and several others partying after losses when they should have been resting for the next game. They seemed to think WCQ was a social event not a serious endeavour. They seemed more worried about disappointing their friends who came to see and party with them than disappointing the fans of the team and their country. Then we had Brennan and DeRo who had performed absolutely terrible not because Mitchell misplayed them but because they played absolutely terrible. Instead of looking themselves in the mirror they then sabotage the team by making public criticisms days before a crucial match at a time when nothing positive could be gained from these statements. When I see the actions and attitude displayed by many of our players I find it hard to put the primary blame on the coach especially when several other players like Stalteri and Onstad have put the blame precisely where I think it belongs. Unfortunately some of our most passionate and character players are not always our most talented (though I think Stalteri's poor performance had mostly to due with lack of game shape). For every mediocre team that was made great by a good manager there are equally as many teams who make a poor or mediocre manager look good. Ramos may be a good example of this as he had a pretty mediocre career until his success at Sevilla and then failed at Spurs. Maybe he got lucky in Sevilla with a very good team. Even Redknapp has had an up and down managerial career and I am not ready to claim him a success with Spurs yet, they played very well under Ramos at the beginning as well. Look at Berti Vogts achievements with Germany despite in my opinion being one of the worst coaches ever. I probably could have coached that German team to success because it was a great team regardless of the manager. In hockey we usually have success even with a poor coach because we have a lot of skilled players and so many in fact that we are able to select skilled players who have good character and play with heart. In soccer we do not have this, we have mostly mediocre players and many of them have attitude problems. That is why we need a top coach to teach them to play and act in a professional manner. Not all of our players but a significant portion of them did not meet the minimum of professionalism and effort that we as fans are entitled to expect in WCQ and those defficiencies are the reason why we are out of WCQ and need a better coach than Mitchell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 ^the decision to play low (no) pressure defence was clearly Mitchell's. Possibly defensible if he had a central defence that was more accomplished and not both playing out of position and/or had a defensive mid tasked with helping out the back 4. But instead, he started Bernier over Imhoff in game one (I do not believe Imhoff was injured at that point). Additionally, he never developed a clue about his stiking preference. The players did not perform well, but I wonder if part of that was a very porr game plan which did not recognize the respective strengths and weaknesses of our players. The team in Edmonton looked like a team that could have qualified...it was the only game however, in which we tried to defend. So, I agree the players did not perform the way they should have but I would disagree that it was as good as a "mediocre" coaching performance from Dale. Yes, Mitchell did, more or less select the right 18, but he used them very poorly IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 I think Imhoff was injured prior to the Jamaica game but I might be wrong. Anyways, a cohesion issue could be why he didn't play since he wasn't part of many MNT activities in the months leading to the WCQ. Bernier was. I too wanted to see Imhoff buty I don't think it had much influence in that game. Jamaica rarely looked dangerous and they scored on a freak goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag futbol Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 I don't even think Dale Mitchell's coaching performance is even debatable. Just accept it as bad. The question is how much blame to put on the players themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearcatSA Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 quote:Originally posted by loyola I'm glad you liked it! I'll keep an eye on your future posting...as I always do anyways since you're one of the best posters out here! Whoa! I'm in a state of levitation after the sunshine you've just blown up my *ss![:I] Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearcatSA Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 I was really annoyed with the simple striker for striker switch we did after we were down 2-1 in the first Honduras match. We weren't generating anything through midfield, our wing play was nonexistent, and the manager persisted with a lone target man up front instead of keeping both on together (which he eventually did in the following match in Chiapas, contributing to a goal off of a dead ball situation with both the scorer, Gerba, and Friend pressuring the keeper). Or, instead of subbing a sub (Brennan for Hume) in the last five minutes he could have at least tried to put someone on with a nose for goal, namely McKenna, especially considering that we were playing route one soccer at that point. We needed, at the very, very least, a point from that match. It was do or die, as far as I was concerned, and at the final whistle you could put some butter on our WCQ campaign because it was, at that point, toast (as should have been Mitchell). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucklefan Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 The other thing is after game 2 (vs Honduras in Mtl) it was clear that Friend needed some help in the attack, he needed another striker with him, I was angry to see the same formation against Mexico, the team were losing 2-0 and in the finals 20 minutes Mitchell opted for another striker (Gerba) with Friend and it was the first time that a striker scored in the WCQ, but it was too little, too late. The other point is why Mitchell put some players in different positions than with their respectives clubs? Look at Radzinski, he scored 14 goals in 21 games with Xanthi, if he had started the season, maybe he had finished topscorer of the league. Hutchinson's position with Copenhagen is left wing, I know De Ro was playing in that position but it would have been more natural and easier for Atiba to play as a right winger rather than in central midfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearcatSA Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 ^I have to look back on my match recordings but I thought DeRo was used more centrally as an attacking mid (like his club position, right?), Radz being used on the left, Bernier on the right (for the first two matches), with Hutchinson and DeGuzman also manning the centre of midfield. The main midfield switch in 2008 appeared to be moving DeRosario from the left and his providing attacking support for the lone striker, and then having Hutchinson playing as more or less a deeper lying holding mid/distributor. As it turned out, DeRosario tended to drift to the flanks anyway to avoid traffic and get more 1 v 1 situations. Regardless, we didn't get the best out of either player so you and others out there can debate whether that's down to the lack of form of the players in question or a tactical error by the manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 quote:Originally posted by loyola I think Imhoff was injured prior to the Jamaica game but I might be wrong. Daniel was part of the squad and was warming up along the sidelines in the 2nd half but never got on in the end. He got injured after that and was then unavailable for the next matches except the final Jamaica game. Regardless of who is to blame the most for our failure (I prefer to look at it as a collective failure rather than to worry about who gets what percentage or priority of blame) I think this is good news that the CSA is prepared to spend this kind of dough on travel. I just hope in future that the lack of success after having done so is not used as a "why bother to do it" excuse by subsequent CSA regimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.