MegasAlexandros1555362277 Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 And all of this discussion is pertinent to the topic because one or all of the existing/possible teams mentioned in this thread may or may not play against a possible USL-1 team in St-Louis right??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytownsoccerfan Posted December 25, 2008 Share Posted December 25, 2008 Calgary Boomer How does the ottawa bid have the most questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 25, 2008 Share Posted December 25, 2008 quote:Originally posted by VPjr If a U-18 team tried to play in a top pro league in Europe the results would not be pretty. 20 points from 22 games means they were reasonably competitive and 6 wins, 2 draws and 5 defeats by a single goal did not happen only against London City only. The stats don't lie even if I am currently in a country where Christmas is an ordinary work day. Beyond that USL-D2 is a national league because it is recognized as such by the USSF. They had to reconfigure a bit when Pro Div 3 or whatever it was called lost its west coast teams but were able to maintain national status by being linked in with USL-D1, which isn't that much of a stretch given USL runs both. The CSL's counterparts as a provincial level league would be state level leagues like the New Jersey Super League and the New York Cosmopolitan League. I hope the Lynx take the plunge as southern Ontario has a large enough population that it should be possible to easily support two pro teams in national level leagues. Certainly much more easily than it would be in St. Louis. I'd heard elsewhere that they were thinking in terms of Hamilton as their home base to play in USL-2 in the upcoming season but judging by what Winnipeg Fury is saying there has been a change of plan since then. Anyhoo, Merry Christmas to everybody on here who is actually able to celebrate it unlike me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted December 25, 2008 Share Posted December 25, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Rudi Are they allowed to do that? I thought they are keeping the TFC-A team completely amateur in order to not mess around with their players' NCAA eligibility. It's not entirely clear what they are allowed and not allowed to do. The scrapping of the Reserve League throws a lot of balls in the air. As for the NCAA eligibility issue, I think TFC management has said on at least 1 occasion that they will do what is in its best interests....if that means a mixed team of professionals and amateurs so be it, I guess. The situation is definitely not settled yet. It's my opinion that if players are solely interested in maintaining amateur status for the purpose of securing a scholarship in the US, then maybe they ought to re-think becoming part of the TFC Academy. It would be my preference that TFC-A be a training program for players with professional ambitions (like Whitecaps academy). If quality players want to persue a post-secondary education, I'd like to see them go to school in the Toronto area (there are plenty of universities and colleges within a 1 hour commute of Downtown Toronto so this should not be an unreasonable expectation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted December 25, 2008 Share Posted December 25, 2008 When the Whitecaps Residency began playing in the PDL I enquired about NCAA issues... the Residency players are on professional contracts with the Whitecaps and the PDL was set up primarily as a summer playing venue for college students. Transpires NCAA does not prohibit NCAA players from playing in the same league as professionals, they just may not play on the same team as professionals. Figure out for yourself how this may affect TFC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 Don't the Whitecaps pay for post secondary education for their academy players who don't make the professional cut? I thought I read that somewhere. If they do, that is a model TFC should follow. If they don't, it is a model TFC shold follow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Ivan Don't the Whitecaps pay for post secondary education for their academy players who don't make the professional cut? I thought I read that somewhere. If they do, that is a model TFC should follow. If they don't, it is a model TFC shold follow! Bang On....that's a virtually guaranteed way to ensure that most of the top young players in the country will do everything they can to get into your academy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnipeg Fury Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Ivan Don't the Whitecaps pay for post secondary education for their academy players who don't make the professional cut? I thought I read that somewhere. If they do, that is a model TFC should follow. If they don't, it is a model TFC shold follow! First class ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Ivan Don't the Whitecaps pay for post secondary education for their academy players who don't make the professional cut? I thought I read that somewhere. If they do, that is a model TFC should follow. If they don't, it is a model TFC shold follow! I checked the Caps site and they cover them with an individualized high school program and a billet system. I didn't see anything about post secondary. It would be a great enticement and like you said even if nobody else is doing it they should be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 The Whitecaps do not pay for post secondary education for those residency players who don't make it as professionals. In fact the contract signed by the players when they enter the program includes a clause where the players acknowledge they may be sacrificing their college opportunities by signing and entering the program. The purpose of the program is to develop professional footballers, not provide degree opportunities. If you want a degree, go play CIS or NCAA ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandstander Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 Yes and the Vancouver Giants and all junior hockey teams should do the same...I think it's unfiar to expect any professional sports franchise to be responsible for the "lives" of players after they (and their parents) have made agreements to the contrary. In a youth development systen you ensure they get the basic education required and provide professional daily training. That's enough. Providing post secondary would cost too much for the club and for the fan who has to support this through their ticket price and any other revenue schemes offered by the club and supported by the fan. I don't mind if they offer two or three scholarships for the youth players who do really well but that's where the line should be drawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Grandstander Yes and the Vancouver Giants and all junior hockey teams should do the same...I think it's unfiar to expect any professional sports franchise to be responsible for the "lives" of players after they (and their parents) have made agreements to the contrary. In a youth development systen you ensure they get the basic education required and provide professional daily training. That's enough. Providing post secondary would cost too much for the club and for the fan who has to support this through their ticket price and any other revenue schemes offered by the club and supported by the fan. I don't mind if they offer two or three scholarships for the youth players who do really well but that's where the line should be drawn. Actually, I thought CHL teams do have that program in place. All it would take would be the sale of a few academy graduates to pay for the program. Look at the Caps first year. They had, what, 18 players? Three are in Germany on loan and could translate into permanent deals. Straith has already moved up to the reserves and seems to be a lock for our U20s which would give him more exposure. While it seems Edwini-Bonsu and Gage, as a minimum, will play for the Caps this year. I don't pretend to know all the economics of the situation, but you would have to think with a couple sales and a few making the first team the program could easily pay for itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 Ivan, I tend to agree with you....Professional clubs exist in a competitive environment, having to compete with lure of NCAA scholarships. getting an education is a high priority to so many parents. Many parents can't get their heads around the concept of their kids playing pro soccer and making a decent living at it because the mainstream media doesn't beat them over the head with it they way it is done with hockey or other "big 4" sports. The major junior hockey leagues face the same competition and have come up with a program to compete with the allure of going south to NCAA. Here are the highlites of the OHL program http://bestofbothworlds.ca/hm/inside.php?sid=6&static_sid=17 I'm sure there are some limitations to the program but it seems like a pretty fair arrangement to me. Here is a link to the education pages for each Major Junior League, listing the requirements for all hockey clubs and players.... OHL: http://www.chl.ca/ohl_education.php QMJHL: http://www.chl.ca/lhjmq_education.php WHL: http://www.chl.ca/whl_education.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 Give the Whitecaps a break guys, the Residency program has only been in place for about two years. I am sure the club would like to do more but it makes sense to take one step at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Richard Give the Whitecaps a break guys, the Residency program has only been in place for about two years. I am sure the club would like to do more but it makes sense to take one step at a time. I'm not criticizing the 'Caps. I admire their program. Adding the educational element would only be an enhancement of what is already an excellent program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 The time may well come when the 'Caps can offer some assistance to those players who do not make the grade as professional footballers and I am sure the club works hard to keep that number as low as possible given the purpose of the program. If the program eventually becomes profitable - which it most certainly is not right now - then all kinds of things become possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 Sorry to give that impression Richard. Not criticizing them at all. I think most fans in Canada look at the Caps Residency as the model program right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 Understood, but the point needed to be made anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calgary Boomer Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 quote:Originally posted by bytownsoccerfan Calgary Boomer How does the ottawa bid have the most questions. Firstly, (and most importantly) they need government funding for a stadium. Secondly, they're not a "sexy" market. Thirdly, they're competing against far stronger markets and ownership groups. Don Garber and the MLS execs are playing Ottawa like a fiddle in order to leverage the other bids. Sorry Ottawa fans, it ain't going to happen not now, not ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer Firstly, (and most importantly) they need government funding for a stadium. Secondly, they're not a "sexy" market. Thirdly, they're competing against far stronger markets and ownership groups. Don Garber and the MLS execs are playing Ottawa like a fiddle in order to leverage the other bids. Sorry Ottawa fans, it ain't going to happen not now, not ever. This is what I think too, especially the 2nd and 3rd points. I have nothing against Ottawa personally, I just think you will never, ever, get an MLS franchise, because it really is not the sort of place they have in mind. It is unsexy, well said. But useful for forcing others to put up more and do more before them being awarded the franchises. Makes sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandstander Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Ivan Actually, I thought CHL teams do have that program in place. All it would take would be the sale of a few academy graduates to pay for the program. Look at the Caps first year. They had, what, 18 players? Three are in Germany on loan and could translate into permanent deals. Straith has already moved up to the reserves and seems to be a lock for our U20s which would give him more exposure. While it seems Edwini-Bonsu and Gage, as a minimum, will play for the Caps this year. I don't pretend to know all the economics of the situation, but you would have to think with a couple sales and a few making the first team the program could easily pay for itself. This program I already knew about. It's apples and oranges though. I stand by my statement that the club can not be responsible for the player once there is no tie to the club. If you want the USL to pay for scholarships like junior leagues do in hockey, good luck, I doubt that will happen. Selling players for the sake of funding a fixed cost year in and year out doesn't make sense. Not every year will produce a "bumper crop" of talent that the club can just sell. The whole point is to develop players for the Caps, period. If the club can make money on some players while holding on to a few that are just as talented so be it. That money should be spent to improve the club on the field or saved for future use or however the club sees fit to use it. Fixed costs are usually funded from ticket sales and other budgeted revenues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandstander Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. This is what I think too, especially the 2nd and 3rd points. I have nothing against Ottawa personally, I just think you will never, ever, get an MLS franchise, because it really is not the sort of place they have in mind. It is unsexy, well said. But useful for forcing others to put up more and do more before them being awarded the franchises. Makes sense to me. Melnyk would have better attendance if he put another hockey team there. Despite what that group is saying I sincerely have doubts about fan support for MLS. They couldn't support the CFL before the Senators came, after the Senators were established etc. It's not a sports town, it's a hockey town. U20 World Cup is a crap barometer to see the great support soccer has in Ottawa. An event like that (like here in BC) attracts fans province wide and world wide. Melnyk would be wise to save his money and concern himself with the money it will take to rebuild the Senators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SthMelbRed Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 Grandstander, if you read the Lennarduzzi section of the conspiracy website by the guy from Calgary (I don't know his name, but somebody posted a link to it a few weeks back), you'll see that one of the main pillars of the pitch made to Kerfoot to entice him to take over the then-bankrupt 'Caps was the potential to profit from the development of professional calibre players. It seems that the solitary goal is not to provide players for the 'Caps, but also to develop players that are too good for the first team who can be sold on for profit. In this context, you can see the first team as showcase for academy produced players in the long-term. So, the academy helps the first team profit on the field and the club profit on the balance sheet. It's what Ajax has been doing for decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 ^ You don't need the conspiracy nut from Calgary to figure out the obvious surely? The Whitecaps have been quite open about the purpose of their Residency since day one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandstander Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Yeah but what are you going to do when you can't sell because no one is interested when their valuation of your players is not the same as your evaluation of your players? They can sell, just not use it to fund some horrible scholarship scheme. The Caps are upfront about it. We will train you, you will be sold or play on the big club. If parents and players alike can live with that great. They will reinvest money in the club. I highly doubt we would have a situation where we have an owner willing to foot the bill for his own stadium, pay 1 mil. to upgrade the pitch at Swangard, pay 3 mil. for new fields and training facility at SFU, and will pay tens of millions for a new world class facility for his football club in the suburbs. Not to mention footing the bill for the women's national team to live and train together before the Women's World Cup. All for the glory of selling off young male players. Somewhere in all this money spending I think he cares about the club he bought, the community it's in , and the sport they play. Some conspiracies are better left alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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