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Time for MLS-2?


Footman89

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Population (Metro areas) comparison with MLS markets:

-------MLS-------------------------------MLS-2

New York 18,815,988--------------New York 18,815,988

Los Angeles 12,875,587-----------Atlanta 5,278,904

Los Angeles 12,875,587-----------Detroit 4,452,559

Chicago 9,524,673----------------Phoenix 4,179,427

Dallas 6,145,037------------------Montreal 3,635,571

Philadelphia 5,827,962------------Minniapolis 3,208,212

Houston 5,628,101-----------------San Diego 2,974,859

Miami 5,413,212-------------------St. Louis 2,803,707

Washington 5,306,565--------------Baltimore 2,668,056

Toronto 5,113,149-----------------Pittsburgh 2,355,712

Boston 4,482,857------------------Portland 2,175,113

San Fransisco 4,203,898-----------Cleveland 2,096,471

Seattle 3,309,347-----------------Las Vegas 1,836,333

Denver 2,803,707------------------Charlotte 1,651,568

Vancouver 2,116,581---------------Milwaukee 1,544,398

Kansas City 1,985,429-------------Richmand 1,212,977

Salt Lake City 1,099,973----------Ottawa 1,063,664

----------------------------------Rochester 1,037,833

----------------------------------Raliegh-Duhrum 1,047,629

----------------------------------Chaleston 630,100

Also, for those interested Calgary is 1,079,310; Edmonton is 1,034,945; Quebec City is 715,515 and Winnipeg is 694,668. I think those are the only cities in Canada with a slim chance of ever having an MLS-2 franchise in the future(that is, if there ever is a MLS-2)

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http://www.j-league.or.jp/eng/jclubs/

I like the Conditions for J1,J2 and Affiliate Membership

As for the fees there are even thou it's not exactly like the MLS type style:

Affiliate Membership: No joining fee. Annual fee of 1.2 million yen(16,407$CAD)

Promotion to J2: Joining fee of 20 million yen. Annual fee of 20 million yen(273,452$CAD)

Promotion to J1: Joining fee of 60 million yen(820,358$CAD) Annual fee of 40 million yen(546,905$CAD)

Conversion done using www.xe.com

My brother in-law is 1 of the coaches for Shimada FC U-16. He came over here for the U-20 World Cup in Victoria since 1 of his proteges made it to the squad. Let me tell you the training is totally different here and there.

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quote:Originally posted by SthMelbRed

Most J-League clubs have been in existence far longer than the J-League itself. Most of the biggest clubs were formally tied to large corporations prior to the formation of the J-League. Urawa Reds were tied to Mitsubishi, Gamba Osaka was tied to Matsu****a (Panasonic), and Grampus Eight was tied to Toyota. Those clubs, in their current incarnations, are still loosely tied to their corporate parents through lucrative sponsorship arrangements, but the formal ownership has been severed to allow the clubs to exist as independent clubs. There is no franchising in J-League football. To further illustrate, my local club when I lived in Japan was Cerezo Osaka. As the company side for Yanmar (manufacturer of diesel engines), Cerezo was national champion as late as 1991 (before the J-League). In the J-League era, it is the stereotypical yo-yo club, usually residing near the bottom of J1 or near the top of J2.

That confirms the J-League system is closer to the European club model than the North American franchise system. Not really appropriate to point to J-League then as a system to be emulated by the current MLS/USL unless those North American leagues undergo a radical change in their structure first.
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I really like the MLS-2 format from a development point of view for players. I certainly can see the benefits for the game as it grows a fan base across NA as you could probably have close to a 40 team league with 20 in each division as a long term goal.

However, I think there are many issues with it. The idea behind NA sports is parity, distribution and the frachise concept. As someone said above, you can't have someone paying $40m and then being relegated. That is simply too much risk for any owner to take on. I just think it would be near impossible for you ever to get a majority of owners to vote for a proposal which could seriously jeopardise their own investment. One possible way is by having the newly promoted compensating the departed financially to the tune of say 3/4's of their expansion fee. But even then, many owners would not want a "forced" lowering of their franchise value.

On distribution, this is essential to a good tv contract. Unlike most other countries which have fairly small land masses, NA is huge and you would not want to see a situation where there were no or few teams in the west in MLS-1 or New York was not represented for a number of years. This would have a huge impact on the revenues of the league overall. Plus, like this year, the LA Galaxy could have been relegated and your marquee player would be playing division 2 next year.

On parity, this is a cornerstone of most NA leagues. And to be frank, I think it makes for a more entertaining product and better development tool than relegation. The last place team goes first in the college draft, and the salary cap helps encourage parity. Take England for example, but since Blackburn won the initial title I don't think anyone outside of Man U, Aresenal or Chelsea have won the title in almost 20 years in the premiership. That frankly is boring and having been a person who has lived in London for 13 years I start to wonder why fans keep on coming back year after year knowing their side has no chance of ever lifting the trophy.

If you went down the promotion relegation avenue in MLS, this would kill the salary cap. You would see a few teams (like Toronto) spend their way to success. The rest of the league would become also rans. The fans would lose interest as supporting a perenial loser is not part of the NA mentality and the league would likely fold.

So I think a better way is the current set up. MLS as the top tier and a completely unaffiliated USL-1 as the second tier. MLS gets most of the glory and the larger crowds. USL-1 develops some decent players and markets. Hopefully, over time, the MLS will become a 20 to 26 side league, and the USL-1 will be similar in size. That would be the ultimate structure. The fact that USL-1 is not an American Hockey League to the National Hockey League means there is some inbuilt rivalry between the 2 leagues which is good for the US Open Cup and the Voyageurs Cup; and good for the game as the MLS as a league always knows if it slips up it will have the USL biting at its heals. I am not so sure that having MLS owners be allowed to own USL-1 sides is a good idea. It would mean they would become essentially farm teams for the MLS. What you need in the MLS is good solid independent teams with committed well finace owners with decent sized soccer stadiums. What I would like to see more of is the possibility of MLS loaning out more players to the USL for development (and not counting against their roster spots) especially now that the reserve division has been killed.

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quote:Originally posted by An Observer

If you went down the promotion relegation avenue in MLS, this would kill the salary cap. You would see a few teams (like Toronto) spend their way to success. The rest of the league would become also rans. The fans would lose interest as supporting a perenial loser is not part of the NA mentality and the league would likely fold.

Of the many points you have made here, I've highlighted this one because I'm sure someone will bring up examples of major league NA pro sports teams that are supported in spite of their annual mediocrity. However, I just think it's different with soccer in North America in comparing fan bases as well the available revenue and revenue sharing numbers.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Interestingly enough, The J-League is thinking of expanding to a proper third division and it seems to be edging closer to reality(as this english-language blog below points out). At present, the third tier is occupied by a semi-pro league called the JFL that is not too different from the CSL from what I can gather. It has some clubs run by single owners or established companies with deep pockets and half-decent stadiums, and other clubs that are basically community-run programs. Phillippe Troussier is the club manager at JFL's FC Ryukyu in Okinawa, an example of a JFL team with hope hopes and influencial backers.

"J. League officials have stated that they will look at creation of a third professional division when J2 reaches 22 teams. With seven teams aiming to turn pro in 2009's JFL, it doesn't seem too unlikely that a mixture of JFL teams could join teams pruned from the bottom of a newly formed 18 team J2 to form the long rumored J3 division. (All J. League divisions have been created initially with ten teams.) Look for discussions on these lines to heat up should 2009's JFL be dominated by teams looking to turn pro."

http://mitohollyhock.blogspot.com/2008/12/confirmation-of-18-team-j2-premature.html

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^^I'm not sure if I follow you, becuase it is my understanding that you pay fees at every level of Japanese football. Also no team will ever magically appear in the top flight, like our ridiculous North American models. Like in Europe, they have to work their way up through regional leagues, the JFL (third tier), then place highly in J2 and then, if they are lucky, after years of effort, they might have earned the right to be considered for J1, if they have fulfilled all of the rather strict prerequisites in place, such as funding, community backing, stadium size and safety, etc.

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^ From your description it seems the Japanese system is more akin to the British club model than the North American franchise system which by its very design precludes promotion and relegation. The club model allows for a team with very modest beginnings to rise through the ranks based solely on onfield performance provided it meets prescribed standards off the field. The North American franchise system is an orphan by world standards.

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^To have a division with promotion/relegation, you have to play a single-table competition with a home/away format. To feasibly do this, MLS would have to cap the top division at 20 teams and even at that, they'd have trouble accomodating a 38 round schedule into the summer season. Forty fully professional clubs in North America in two divisions with pro/rel would be nice, but is never going to happen.

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Oh god here we go again with promotion relegation talk in North America. NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.

MLS would never allow even the remote possibility that one of their glamour teams getting dropped. (read LA Galaxy here).

There's also a geographical component to this mind numbing discussion which comes up every 4 months or so here. They're trying to balance teams east and west in MLS. Unless they do an MLS West Div 1 and Div 2, and East Div 1 and Div 2, they could upset the geographic balance.

And that's why it will never happen. Ever.

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quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer

Oh god here we go again with promotion relegation talk in North America. NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.

MLS would never allow even the remote possibility that one of their glamour teams getting dropped. (read LA Galaxy here).

There's also a geographical component to this mind numbing discussion which comes up every 4 months or so here. They're trying to balance teams east and west in MLS. Unless they do an MLS West Div 1 and Div 2, and East Div 1 and Div 2, they could upset the geographic balance.

And that's why it will never happen. Ever.

With 15 teams in MLS, 3 expansion teams in the next 2 years, 4 other bidders and about 8/9 other USL teams who have pretty descent teams i'd say there could definetly be 2 divisions of 16 teams.

With the East/West thing... its already pointless because teams play only 2 additional games in total against there conference. Next year TFC plays 14 east games and 16 west games. Does the make scence? THey only use divions now for the playoff scheme. With promotion and relegation between the 2 divisions they won't need playoffs therefore no need for conferences.

We're never going to have a pyramid like england or italy with 4/5 pro divisions and then regional divions, but 2 divisions like this is feasable.

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Might happen in the very distant future but if you are asking people to pay into the nine figures range for the expansion fee and an SSS I suspect it is quite difficult to sell the concept of relegation. No question in my mind that regional conferences and playoffs will be the way they get up to 32 or so like the NHL, NFL, NBA and MLB. That process is likely to take a couple of decades minimum for a variety of reasons.

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An MLS2 will never exist if the "franchise fee" structure still exists. The only way to do it is to have a "membership fee" system. The annual payment instead of a large one time payout would make it easier on the owners of modest means. The risk is less, starting at the bottom. The bigger issue is that the path to success has to be well defined. Clubs and owners have to see that every year they have a shot at getting to the top, via the CONCACAF Champions League in this region, and see that 4-5 year plan to get promoted based on performance rather than 'promises' (see Rochester Rhinos c.2002). The other big carrot is the prize money. There needs to be more, it needs to be publicized and the owners/clubs have to want to fight for it.

I do think a pro/rel system in North America could work, but I tend to agree that it will never happen. The system has to be very tight. A set of well defined rules and a surplus of teams that can make the jump to a national scale. The World Junior Hockey Championships has relegation coming from a 2 division competition format, so it is possible. The issue in North America (or Canada) is that the split to 2 divisions doesn't drop the travel that much. It needs to be split into 6 or 8 tier 2 or tier 3 divisions.

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If USL joins in MLS, then I except MLS to follow MLB format instead of having promotion/relegation. MLS will have two "leagues" (National league and American league like they do in baseball) then have winners from both those "leauges" to meet up in the finals for MLS cup.

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i never want to see promotion and relegation in MLS.

I spend money to see the highest quality -- the last thing I want is to be spend even a season on a lower quality of play.

I never really understood why people would willingly promote a system that could potentially relegate their own team! It's a strange ideology to me... The only advantage is this so called "greater competition" line everyone spouts about the system, but in reality we have great competition in MLS without the scare of relegation (see Columbus's great improvement over the past few seasons). The promo/releg system is unneeded in North America.

Consider ourselves lucky.

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quote:Originally posted by jimmynow

i never want to see promotion and relegation in MLS.

I spend money to see the highest quality -- the last thing I want is to be spend even a season on a lower quality of play.

I never really understood why people would willingly promote a system that could potentially relegate their own team! It's a strange ideology to me... The only advantage is this so called "greater competition" line everyone spouts about the system, but in reality we have great competition in MLS without the scare of relegation (see Columbus's great improvement over the past few seasons). The promo/releg system is unneeded in North America.

Consider ourselves lucky.

But Jimmy, you are missing the point, I'm afraid.

It's exactly THE THREAT of relegation that keeps owners spending money (and being careful not to ridiculously overspend), bringing new trialists in, and trying to improve the general quality of their team. The "parity" structure which rewards poorer teams with better draft picks encourages the kind of mediocity which you hope to avoid.

There is no threat of anything happening in MLS if you decide to field a crap team, have no reserve depth whatsoever, or not even use the DP slot given to you to help bring in more quality and/or interest from the fans. After a few more years of watching TFC, you might understand my point.

Now, if half a dozen teams in MLS decided to go this spend-thrift, poorly-scouted route, like we see in most other North American Leagues, then the reputation of the whole league is tarnished. A league like MLS might even fold as a result, all while people like yourself hold on to stubborn ideals of what can or cannot function in the North American sports market.

The "threats" you talk about, namely having a poor team enter the top flight, would be for one season max. You might see an MLS version of Derby come up and go straight back down. Big deal. A certain number of fans would be attracted to the idea of having a fresh club come into the league from time to time, especially if a new regional rival happened to get promoted.

Granted, the league would see losing LA or NY or maybe even TFC as a big threat, but it has nothing to do with the on-field quality issue that you are trying to shovel our way.

As I've said before, if you had sides like Vancouver and Montreal earning their way up from a second division in the place of a couple of the cheaply or inneffectively run sides (like LA), then you would have a MUCH BETTER product on the field.

Don't confuse a brilliant and profitable business model in Toronto with league-wide interest, profitability, or success. Consider yourselves lucky if you still have a league in ten years.

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The only way it works is if the franchise price tag for MLS-2 is $40M. Unless that happens no owner who forked out bigtime cash to join MLS would stand for some ragtag outfit that paid a fraction of what they did to come into their league and replace them (or one of their own). End of story.

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quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer

Oh god here we go again with promotion relegation talk in North America. NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.

MLS would never allow even the remote possibility that one of their glamour teams getting dropped. (read LA Galaxy here).

There's also a geographical component to this mind numbing discussion which comes up every 4 months or so here. They're trying to balance teams east and west in MLS. Unless they do an MLS West Div 1 and Div 2, and East Div 1 and Div 2, they could upset the geographic balance.

And that's why it will never happen. Ever.

Geez you are factually wrong .. cause it seems to me Mexico does have promotion and relegation. If you want to say the USA will not accept it fine but dont be over reaching.

Just think what would happen if the USL gets a bit more integrated with Mexico.. the world for soccer in Canada and Mexico could change substantially.

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quote:Originally posted by Trillium

Just think what would happen if the USL gets a bit more integrated with Mexico..

A bit more, as in more than the current zero integration?

Why on earth would Mexico want to have anything to do with the USL? Seriously.

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Actually, the linkage between Mexico and USL has started. The new Austin Aztex USL-1 team will apparently be cooperating quite a bit with Monterrey. Who knows what will actually come of it, but it seems a decent strategy.

Snippet from the link below:

The alliance between the two clubs includes the following:

- Austin Aztex FC will act as a feeder club for young talent to Club de Futbol Monterrey.

- Austin Aztex FC will proactively scout in Central and Southern Texas for talented young players for Club de Futbol Monterrey.

- Club de Futbol Monterrey will provide up to a maximum of two players to play for the Austin Aztex FC squad each season.

- Austin Aztex FC players will have the opportunity to go on loan to Club de Futbol Monterrey.

- Club de Futbol Monterrey will come to Austin for exhibition games with Austin Aztex FC.

- Club de Futbol Monterrey will host a youth team from Austin area for a week each year.

- Club de Futbol Monterrey coaches will participate in Austin Aztex FC Summer Soccer Camps.

- The two clubs will have reciprocal links on their respective websites.

- Austin Aztex FC will have the opportunity to do their pre-season training in Monterrey.

- Coaches from Austin Aztex FC will have the opportunity to go to Monterrey and “shadow” the Club de Futbol Monterrey coaching staff for a week each year.

- Best practices will be shared between the two clubs.

http://www.uslsoccer.com/home/292480.html

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