U20 Odds & Ends

[Vic]

Yes that is often good advice. That decision would depend on your passion and drive (and your bank account, ability to manage family obligations, etc). I know of one individual who was serendipitously faced with that choice recently - and to the purist who lives for their craft, it's hard to accept mediocrity and not sit at the main table.

[bjarne]

So Leroux scored the goal that sends the US through to the finals. 1-0 US over Germany. Lets hope the CSA gets their act together before we lose anymore players of her quality. What a shame.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by bjarne

So Leroux scored the goal that sends the US through to the finals. 1-0 US over Germany. Lets hope the CSA gets their act together before we lose anymore players of her quality. What a shame.

I am confused....she is ripping up the tournament with goals yet she was sent out of our program ?

Why can no one get the reason why ?

[CoachRich]

It looks like she is taking advantage of her dual citizenship for the benefits it affords her in the US w/ the game, high school & university.

She hasn't played in our WP since 2004.

She's been playing high school ball in the States for at least 3 years -

Member of three state cup winning teams in the U.S., helping Eastside (Seattle, Wash.) to a title in 2006 and Sereno (Scottsdale, Ariz.) in 2007 and 2008.

At 16 was on the US WNT U17's,

Now on the U20's & a freshman at UCLA.

Very impressive player & looking at the above her development pathway has been well thought out plus full of success. She has definitely got a bright future for herself in the game & will have many opportunities open up for her.

Well done for her family & her.

[squid2]

quote:Originally posted by Trillium

Why can no one get the reason why ?

In the world according to EP & IB, "too much Brazil"

[Vic]

US Soccer (http://ussoccer.com/) homepage headline and photo of Leroux and Baunach:

Leroux Sends U-20s to Final

[Vic]

US Soccer (http://ussoccer.com/) homepage headline and photo of Leroux and Baunach:

Leroux Sends U-20s to Final

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by squid2

In the world according to EP & IB, "too much Brazil"

are you serious Squid? are you implying they didn't like her because she played with too much flair?

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

are you serious Squid? are you implying they didn't like her because she played with too much flair?

I remember that alledged comment by Pellerud but I thought it was in the case of Amanda Cicchini....and it would match perfectly. If you had the chance to see her play with WVU, she is a very fun player to watch.

I don't think Leroux was cut from our program.

[The Ref]

There was and is nothing wrong with the likes of Cicchini and Leroux. Who was not cut for our program was the neanderthal Pellerud.

[Guest Ed]

quote:Originally posted by CoachRich

It looks like she is taking advantage of her dual citizenship for the benefits it affords her in the US w/ the game, high school & university.

She hasn't played in our WP since 2004.

She's been playing high school ball in the States for at least 3 years -

Member of three state cup winning teams in the U.S., helping Eastside (Seattle, Wash.) to a title in 2006 and Sereno (Scottsdale, Ariz.) in 2007 and 2008.

At 16 was on the US WNT U17's,

Now on the U20's & a freshman at UCLA.

Very impressive player & looking at the above her development pathway has been well thought out plus full of success. She has definitely got a bright future for herself in the game & will have many opportunities open up for her.

Well done for her family & her.

To hell with her and her family. Traitors.

[Vic]

My opinion depends on how she was handled by our national team staff. Anyone know for certain if she walked or was released?

[bjarne]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

To hell with her and her family. Traitors.

As much as I love Canada the country, I hate Canada the soccer system and think people like you Ed have obviously never lived the game as a player, at an elite level in this country. I give major kudos for Sydney for taking the risk and heading to the US and making her way to the top of a system that is a hell of a lot better structured and with a hell of a lot more opportunity than ours. This "traitor" talk is ridiculous. All you need to do is peruse the threads to see what an utter joke the system in Canada is. I just hope something is done to change it before another Canadian born player with talent leaves because of the unprofessional, inept program that is being run at all levels, and in all parts of this great land.

[Richard]

Don't count on any systemic changes happening anytime soon.

Young Canadian soccer players and their families have to make decisions first and foremost based on what is in the best interests of the player, and not necessarily driven solely by notions of patriotism. Decisions must take into account both the player's soccer playing aspirations and future life if those aspirations are not met for any reason. Statistically most youngsters who aspire to make a career playing soccer professionally don't succeed or have very short careers in lesser leagues then have to make a living for the rest of their lives doing something else.

[CoachRich]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

To hell with her and her family. Traitors.

You've got to be kidding right?

[Vic]

I don't think it's that simple Rich. And what I do know is that it's a dirty business for young kids. A 15yr old does not have the mental skills to make a decision of that nature yet. Parents make the decision.

The US development system is miles ahead of us, and contributes massive amounts more to developing athletes. On a cursory level, to an athlete seeking a world standard and career, optimizing your lifestyle to avail yourself of those benefits is a natural, a given, a simple choice.

But on a deeper level it's a lot murkier. Canadian citizenship has an oath called declaring "true allegiance", as well as providing a higher level of social benefits.

Is dual citizenship a free pass to play countries benefits off against each other for personal gain? Are parents of athletes luckier for their children if they hold dual citizenship? Is it "better" than Canadian citizenship?

It's a loophole, the Leroux's used it, and that's their business. I'm not bothered in the least. My Canada is and always will be people who want to be here.

[bjarne]

^Using that argument Vic, using Sydney as an example, her parents working and are contributing their taxes to the system with a "higher level of social benefits", so if anything it could be argued that their family is contributing to a system that not all of their family is using.

I definitely think holding a dual passport is an advantage for our Canadian female soccer players, and I stand by my initial point that until we get the system here sorted out, that we are going to continue to lose players to other countries to the large detriment to our own national team. Besides Sydney, off the top of my head, I can think of female Canadian players that have gone and made both youth and full international teams of Switzerland, Portugal, Ireland and Colombia in this last year. The next obvious point of argument may well be that those players would not have made the Canadian equivalents. I would reply that those players are obviously at a level capable of representing a country at an international level, and in an ideal world, there would be a system here that caters to female players getting recognized and at the very least having the opportunity to develop, past the small handful that get into the youth or full national team programs. Many of those players do not necessarily want to leave, but how can you fault players who are making zero money in the game, and who sacrifice so much to play it, for going somewhere that will benefit them as players when they are in a system that isn't developing them to their potential? Would Sydney have become as good as she obviously has, if she had stayed in Canada?

We will continue to lose talented female Canadian players until something is done to change this completely inept system. But to call players who are leaving such ridiculous things as traitors or somehow implying that they are any less patriotic for trying to do what they can to better themselves as players, to me signals people judging from their armchairs and who haven't lived this game at this country at an elite level, and the extreme frustration that comes along with it.

[CoachRich]

You'd be surprise how many kids at 15 are asked by their parents about changes to the family.

We all know its a dirty business when Canadian soccer doesn't have a working structure/model & what is here is far from professional. It goes from bottom to top in what is still a mom & pop govern & managed sport. Why label people when they are looking to develop themselves when we have nothing to offer?

Vic, the majority of us & including you support our players going to the Pro's out of our country, the NCAA & etc for their development. How many of them don't even bother playing for our NT? It's not a crime & they certainly don't need some idiots calling them traitors. Where they go to earn a living or develop themselves in the sport is their business & still benefits the sport.

Dual citizenship is not a loophole as it's w/in our CoR, laws of the land & etc. Sure some of us may not like it or be jealous but it doesn't deserve the words being thrown about. The Leroux situation doesn't even fit the def of traitor so why use the word?

I find it disgusting some of the words posters use here about players, coaches & teams especially when they are refering to minors. The thread below is the worse I've seen as the posters don't understand any of the foundations of the sport.

Thread Name - "New Whore"

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18164

What makes it worse is Ed the Author of the thread & other are labeling a minor like Sidney. One who has contributed to the sport & is bettering herself by making choices & changes by moving around NA. These posters shouldn't be around the sport & certainly not around youth sports.

Have a look at the thread & ask yourself if you would let these people be in the sport & coaching kids. I would definitely have them in discipline & out of the game right away if they where in any part of the game I admin.

Come on guys look at the foundation & principles of the sport before you even hit the field.

[Richard]

I wish to add my support to CoachRich over the post by Ed in the World Soccer forum thread. Sexism aside I think it is one thing to use the word whore when referring to males as some do with Owen Hargreaves for instance, but for a young woman it is inappropriate and in very bad taste.

Mods I urge you to delete that thread and reprimand the originator Ed as it reflects badly on all of us who participate in the forum. I certainly have no desire to be associated with that kind of degrading attitude.

[Vic]

Just read the other thread - agreed.

Bjarne, where do you draw the line? The standard of living and average income is much higher for Doctors in Dubai. A far better choice for personal gain. Our healthcare system is eminently frustrating. How would you feel if all our doctors packed their bags tomorrow? Would you laurel their career commitment?

Rich, again, I'm not even 1% upset, bothered or affected. I literally don't care. And because of it I'm pretty impartial. I have ZERO problem with anyone leaving to better themselves as players. I understand why people do it, I can empathize and I'm glad for them but I'm also not about to say they're great Canadians.

We'll NEVER be as good as the Americans at development. They'll ALWAYS have a structure/model that makes us look unprofessional. They day will never arrive when staying here becomes as good an option.

My question was is dual citizenship better than Canadian citizenship? I believe you both answered yes.

[terpfan68]

Well it would certainly help our men if some of them held EU passports.

[CoachRich]

Vic,

Show me the yes?

It's their right & their choice under our laws.

[The Ref]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

I wish to add my support to CoachRich over the post by Ed in the World Soccer forum thread. Sexism aside I think it is one thing to use the word whore when referring to males as some do with Owen Hargreaves for instance, but for a young woman it is inappropriate and in very bad taste.

Mods I urge you to delete that thread and reprimand the originator Ed as it reflects badly on all of us who participate in the forum. I certainly have no desire to be associated with that kind of degrading attitude.

Yes, if there is one thread that needs to be deleted that is the one. Don't just lock it, delete it.

[bjarne]

quote:Originally posted by Vic

Just read the other thread - agreed.

Bjarne, where do you draw the line? The standard of living and average income is much higher for Doctors in Dubai. A far better choice for personal gain. Our healthcare system is eminently frustrating. How would you feel if all our doctors packed their bags tomorrow? Would you laurel their career commitment?

Rich, again, I'm not even 1% upset, bothered or affected. I literally don't care. And because of it I'm pretty impartial. I have ZERO problem with anyone leaving to better themselves as players. I understand why people do it, I can empathize and I'm glad for them but I'm also not about to say they're great Canadians.

We'll NEVER be as good as the Americans at development. They'll ALWAYS have a structure/model that makes us look unprofessional. They day will never arrive when staying here becomes as good an option.

My question was is dual citizenship better than Canadian citizenship? I believe you both answered yes.

Vic, very intelligent questions and great points.

You didn't answer my question though. Do you think that Sydney would have become the player that she obviously has, if she had stayed in Canada? That being said, is the mentality that we fault players (again for females, who rarely make a living at the game)who leave to better themselves as players because our system is inept? Using that mentality as well, should also the girls who choose to play NCAA soccer be looked down upon, because it would be more "patriotic" to go to a Canadian school? Would Candace Chapman, Christine Sinclair, and pretty much the rest of the Canadian roster be the players that they are, had they stayed in Canada?

I guess your second to last paragraph is where we are fundamentally different, because I believe that if people get together and take some steps towards change that we CAN be a place that players want to be. That we CAN have a structure that is professional and in the best interests of the players. But the first step I guess is that people believe that it is possible. If not, I guess we'll be like a bad soap opera--you can leave it for a few years and come back and catch a glimpse and its the same sad, pathetic story line that has hardly changed a bit.

[Vic]

This is a great thread.

I should begin by going back a step. One of my first posts in this thread I believe was wondering if she was released or quit. Because to me the ethics of the decision have quite a bit to do with that.

Rich, laws, rights and responsibilities are very different things. Just as an example, under diplomatic immunity laws I have the right to detonate a nuclear device over a major urban area and avoid prosecution.

Good questions Bjarne. I've asked myself those many times, especially on the boy's side. I really am stuck on the fence here, and playing a bit of Devil's advocate. I have no idea how I would handle this decision if I was in their shoes. You never can tell.

"That being said, is the mentality that we fault players (again for females, who rarely make a living at the game) who leave to better themselves as players because our system is inept?"

What about the players who stayed and played here and achieved international all-star status? What about the Hooper's, the Lang's, the Richard's? They all did pretty good under our systems and didn't need to leave to get there. So if they can do it, what is the definition of has to leave?

"Should also the girls who choose to play NCAA soccer be looked down upon, because it would be more "patriotic" to go to a Canadian school?"

I think there's a big difference between going to school somewhere and playing for a different country. Going away to school is like playing club in Europe on the men's side. And even at that, I believe the tide is turning and there already is a shift in the attitudes from the highest levels inside the women's program because of the demands of the NCAA programs. I just hope they follow it up with some action to make the schools up here a better option. It would be great for everyone.

"Would Candace Chapman, Christine Sinclair, and pretty much the rest of the Canadian roster be the players that they are, had they stayed in Canada?"

Well, we did as well against the Americans before the core of the Canadian team became players taking NCAA scholarships. It's all a little moot and somewhat derivative though - all these players would have become a lot better if they went and played in Europe full-time instead of going to school. There is no substitute for a dedicated professional training environment.

"I believe that if people get together and take some steps towards change that we CAN be a place that players want to be."

I admire your outlook and I've been there. It's just economics to me now though. Not only are they more progressive as a country in terms of funding athletes, their economy is 10 times ours. We don't have the money to keep people who are looking for the best option and we never will.

As an example, this week is the Boy's US Development Academy Winter Showcase in Los Angeles. The best youth development prospects from all across the country are in town playing games on 24 fields at the Lancaster Soccer Center. Coaches, Academy Director's, 28 members of the USNT Scouting Network, and 250 college coaches. Games broadcast on Fox. And that's just the Winter Showcase. We don't even have national sport-friendly schools up here, and it's not like our educational systems turn on a dime. It will take us at least 10-20 years to get something like that running here, if we ever do. And by then they'll be another 10-20 years ahead of where they are now.