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U20 - GM3 CAN vs GER


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quote:Originally posted by terpfan68

I agree that we are hearing more criticism of the CSA from Richard lately. I started posting almost three years ago and Richard would defend the CSA every time. I wonder what happened to cause his turn around.

As to taking shots: If you recall I only hit back after you made that crack about my login name. Whatever names people choose should be respected. I do think that people should have the courage to identify themselves. Newspapers require identification for their letters to the editor section because then the readers can understand any conflict of interest or biases the writers might have.

I truly believe the Club Model as explained by several posters is the way to go along with paid coaches. Our problem here in Winnipeg is that players are not free to choose which club they wish to belong to at the premier level. They players 17 and under MUST play in their district unless they are cut from the program and are permitted to transfer. After 17 they may play anywhere and often there are wholesale changes from year to year (especially with the women) when players feel that they don't care for the coach anymore.

And so thats why the changes have to happen at the CSA level to have one workable open model accross the country, If I am not sure Manitoba has a lower percentage of registered players at various age levels. The CSA by not having a fully national model that applies all over the country .. we wont have a working model of development.

So no matter your province and city the issue is to have one national model, its very interesting how the CSA and all its highly paid help has failed to acheive this in the last fifteen years.

Restricting player movement by geography would be struck down by any court if a case is brought.

That would open Winnipeg to full movement of players at any age.

The Provincial Association should be ashamed to allow such a restictive covenant that is against the federal Charter.

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quote:Originally posted by Trillium

And so thats why the changes have to happen at the CSA level to have one workable open model accross the country, If I am not sure Manitoba has a lower percentage of registered players at various age levels. The CSA by not having a fully national model that applies all over the country .. we wont have a working model of development.

So no matter your province and city the issue is to have one national model, its very interesting how the CSA and all its highly paid help has failed to acheive this in the last fifteen years.

Restricting player movement by geography would be struck down by any court if a case is brought.

That would open Winnipeg to full movement of players at any age.

The Provincial Association should be ashamed to allow such a restictive covenant that is against the federal Charter.

Outside of cooperation & self interest there is nothing to stop Clubs/Districts from forming their own national model together. In some ways Districts basically become clubs like Vancouver where they have 11-12 clubs looking after 2000 girls, they only need 1 or 2 clubs. They should be both sexes & cradle to grave w/ Rec & HP pathways. IMO Clubs/Districts should work together as they are the most important part of development & they also carry all the votes to change the PSO & CSA. Whether the Clubs/Districts become a formal national club association there is nothing that the PSO or CSA can do provided they operate w/in the governance of the POS & CSA.

I basically over the years have become more of a free market believer in clubs in that the best clubs survive because they do the best job & not because they have a protected territory. Players pay the $ so they should be allowed to chose the club they want to be a member of.

If we are to change to professionally managed clubs that are still governed by vollies they should be allowed to operate in a free market. If that is too much of a struggle for folks than make Districts into Clubs but the soccer community needs to understand that our existing club structure is too small to provide the services needed to better the game at both Rec & HP levels.

Restricting player movement by geography is common in youth sports across the country where clubs are youth only. I'd certainly like to know if that is not the case across Canada in the soccer community but I believe we all are controlled by the PSO into Districts where youth clubs are concerned.

From my understanding in Metro Vancouver they have withstood CoR challenges because that's the way youth sports are run. That's why PSO's are able to have Districts based on city/community boundaries established at the PSO level by the Districts. District boundaries can be changed by the areas they impact at the AGM's of their PSO if everyone is in agreement.

In addressing freedom of movement it becomes harder for the PSO to control when clubs become real clubs w/ cradle to grave programs. The PSO shouldn't be able to regulate a certain age level in a club when the club covers all ages. Also, this leads to clubs voting based upon the number of members regardless of age unlike in BC where the Youth & Senior vote differently which is stupid.

Another part of professionally run clubs is that they can afford to run professionally run leagues. Presently a lot of us at the youth club level are running the leagues as well. W/ the amount of experience the leagues are basically professionally run by vollies which should not be the case. Like clubs they should be governed by vollies but managed by professionals.

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Trillium : I'm pretty sure you are wrong about courts striking down restrictions of movement of players from district to another. I don't think it is a charter right. I am pretty sure that at least in Manitoba the courts refused to hear the case because they said it was not up to them to regulate how a sport governed itself unless the discrimination was against the charter. We have municipalities that require certain employees to live within the jurisdiction and that has never been ruled against the charter. We also group players by age which is blatant age discrimination but is permitted. Manitoba had a case of twin sisters claming discrimination because they were not allowed to play on a high school boys hockey team even though there was a girls team at the school. Human Right commission ruled in their favor and the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association appealed to the courts and the courts ruled that since boys hockey allowed checking it was a different sport from girls hockey and the girls had a right to tryout for the team. Neither girl made the team. It remains to be seen if boys will try out for field hockey (no boys team available) or softball (boys in Manitoba play baseball). Besides if location didn't matter what would stop a player from Ontario for trying out for the Manitoba Provincial team?

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quote:Originally posted by terpfan68

Trillium : I'm pretty sure you are wrong about courts striking down restrictions of movement of players from district to another. I don't think it is a charter right. I am pretty sure that at least in Manitoba the courts refused to hear the case because they said it was not up to them to regulate how a sport governed itself unless the discrimination was against the charter. We have municipalities that require certain employees to live within the jurisdiction and that has never been ruled against the charter. We also group players by age which is blatant age discrimination but is permitted. Manitoba had a case of twin sisters claming discrimination because they were not allowed to play on a high school boys hockey team even though there was a girls team at the school. Human Right commission ruled in their favor and the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association appealed to the courts and the courts ruled that since boys hockey allowed checking it was a different sport from girls hockey and the girls had a right to tryout for the team. Neither girl made the team. It remains to be seen if boys will try out for field hockey (no boys team available) or softball (boys in Manitoba play baseball). Besides if location didn't matter what would stop a player from Ontario for trying out for the Manitoba Provincial team?

Nothing, the Quebec team has had players from Ottawa in the past, The CSA in a national association, interprovincial transfers fall under their control for players, and many players have residence in one province and register and play in another, I have not heard of any restrictions ever imposed.

Your case in Manitoba is interesting, but it clearly means those who live in a poorer area for example the north end .. are denied a equitable oppourtunity to participate on the best team or progam .. lets say in Kildonan, the areas with strong native populations would be adversely affected in free movement to particpate.

I suspect a statistical comparison map can be made from your soccer districts linking success to income and race, once you do that the barriers are going to fall very quickly.

A city may segregate itself according to income and or race on because of thousands of individual choices, but when you segregate and restrict based on those choices and it results in different oppourtunity to succeed you contravene the Diefenbaker charter. I suspect even the most left of socialist judges in Manitoba could be persuaded by a good second year law student.

In any case are the zones enforced by the MSA ?

What stops the MSA from allowing clubs to be formed and then to have those clubs petition the city for equal access to fields ?

Which I suspect is the real power.. that parks and rec controls the fields and hands them to its creatures your local multi sport community centre.

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quote:Originally posted by Trillium

Nothing, the Quebec team has had players from Ottawa in the past, The CSA in a national association, interprovincial transfers fall under their control for players, and many players have residence in one province and register and play in another, I have not heard of any restrictions ever imposed.

Your case in Manitoba is interesting, but it clearly means those who live in a poorer area for example the north end .. are denied a equitable oppourtunity to participate on the best team or progam .. lets say in Kildonan, the areas with strong native populations would be adversely affected in free movement to particpate.

I suspect a statistical comparison map can be made from your soccer districts linking success to income and race, once you do that the barriers are going to fall very quickly.

A city may segregate itself according to income and or race on because of thousands of individual choices, but when you segregate and restrict based on those choices and it results in different oppourtunity to succeed you contravene the Diefenbaker charter. I suspect even the most left of socialist judges in Manitoba could be persuaded by a good second year law student.

In any case are the zones enforced by the MSA ?

What stops the MSA from allowing clubs to be formed and then to have those clubs petition the city for equal access to fields ?

Which I suspect is the real power.. that parks and rec controls the fields and hands them to its creatures your local multi sport community centre.

My understanding -

Interdistrict & Interprovincal player movement is controlled by the PSO & CSA.

Districts are formed by the members of those clubs in those areas. Districts can be changed at the PSO AGM by the members.

The soc/ec line in Vancouver is West & East -

All the fields are lousy compared to other cities. The assignment of soccer fields for clubs in based on gender w/ boys on Sat & girls on Sun. Next it's based on a Club's postal code catchment.

The only all female club in Vancouver is on the East side but has players from all over Vancouver so they use fields city wide. This is because they have some teams that the majority of the players are from the West side. The rational from Parks is to cut down on the driving for home games & practices.

Which field in your area & what time you use it for home games is assigned by the District Scheduler so fields for league play are coordinated. Sometimes you might get a field on the other side as the field in your area is closed. Practices are sched'ed at the club level.

Development wise -

The 3 West side clubs have 60% of the players & have a better program as they share 2 professional Tec Dir & their Development Academy.

The East side clubs are getting smaller especially at the select & Metro level as those teams are stronger on the West side.

Sadly the lines are drawn West & East in the District but the East side has 9 clubs to balance the vote when they want.

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When you talk districts in Ontairo you have a large number mostly with large geographic spacing, the evolution of those districts was over time and based on historical patterns of movement.

So for example the Eastern Ontario District now runs from the Quebec Border near Montreal to Prescott about 180K then up to Ottawa along county lines with the furtherest west at Perth in Lanark County. So a team in district league could see travel with an hour and half drive to play on a top competitive team in the top division.

Recent movement in Ontario has created Regions on top of Districts, that group two or three Districts together to increase the competitive nature of the top level.

What the Districts should for a variety of reasons not be involved in is, assigning fields or running leagues. I think that line is blurred in other Provinces and it creates significant problems long term.

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