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Gian-Luca

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quote:Originally posted by loyola

RPB forum at the time of the Voyageurs Cup last game and during MTL run in the CCL. I read a lot of comments about that. MTL fans who have seen both in the last 4 yrs would probably agree with that as well.

I would think Jordan is better than Sutton. Not a big difference IMO, but still a better keeper.

Not me, I would take Sutton over Jordan having watched both extensively. Very similar keepers with similar strengths and weaknesses but Sutton just seems to be a bit more solid and skilled in my opinion. Jordan is a good USL keeper but very error prone and his errors are not punished in USL just like Onstad and Sutton's are not punished in MLS. Since I don't see a lot of difference in current playing level between MLS and USL I think Jordan would also be decent at MLS level. He was pretty crappy when he had to take a step up and play CCL though. I have at least seen Sutton play higher level opposition with the national team and play well so we know he can step up his game. I have not seen that from Jordan. I don't think Onstad is better than Sutton either, he just plays behind a much better team. In all honesty all three are mediocre keepers who are far from international level.

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quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

Not me, I would take Sutton over Jordan having watched both extensively. Very similar keepers with similar strengths and weaknesses but Sutton just seems to be a bit more solid and skilled in my opinion. Jordan is a good USL keeper but very error prone and his errors are not punished in USL just like Onstad and Sutton's are not punished in MLS. Since I don't see a lot of difference in current playing level between MLS and USL I think Jordan would also be decent at MLS level. He was pretty crappy when he had to take a step up and play CCL though. I have at least seen Sutton play higher level opposition with the national team and play well so we know he can step up his game. I have not seen that from Jordan. I don't think Onstad is better than Sutton either, he just plays behind a much better team. In all honesty all three are mediocre keepers who are far from international level.

Why was I giving the edge to Jordan over Sutton? Because of the communication, this the area where I think Jordan is a lot better than Sutton. For the rest I think they are like you said pretty similar.

I'm a bit curious about your CCL evaluation. I remember that in another thread you were saying that Joe Public and Olimpia were USL level teams, so it's tough to judge Jordan only on his Atlante performances (wasn't he injured at the end of the season?).

International level? What does that mean? The goal Onstad conceeded against Jamaica was on a CK taken by an MLS journeyman and most CONCACAF teams have "MLS level" type players playing for them and a couple of exceptions per team. If you compare Onstad club situation to the other keepers present in CONCACAF Third Round, I'm pretty sure he wasn't among the worst.

Edit: As for the RPB forum, look at this thread for some comments about Sutton. I think a lot of evaluations of his play are spot on.

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=7815&highlight=sutton

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I do agree that Jordan is a better communicator than Sutton and organizes the defence better. His confidence and attitude even when he is crappy also has a good effect on the team. That along with his shot stopping ability are his strengths. Sutton is also just as good a shot stopper and though is weak in communication skills, I think he is stronger in many other areas such as decision making and positioning. Plus he is taller and gets a lot of balls that are out of Jordan's reach. I don't remember as many heart attack moments (mistakes that were scary but did not result in a goal) or head shaking moments (where you think what the hell was he doing?) watching Sutton with the Impact as Jordan though admittedly the USL has improved since Sutton played for us. I also don't remember Sutton let as many balls that were catchable/smotherable bounce back out in a dangerous position. I think Jordan is a bit overrated because he makes some spectacular saves and is very confident and vocal which goes over well with fans. People tend to overlook his not infrequent screw ups partly because at the USL level many of them do not result in goals. That is why I am not as worried as others if we lose him this off-season as long as we can find a decent replacement.

As far as my rating of the CCL teams, Joe Public was below USL level, Olimpia was at the level of a top USL team and Atlante was better than a USL or MLS team though not by as much as I expected. It was the games against Olimpia that Jordan was particularly poor. While Olimpia is not better in my opinion than a top USL team I think it is important to note that I mean a top team. Playing Olimpia would be like playing the Whitecaps or Puerto Rico every game. The majority of games we play in USL are against lesser teams than the Caps or PR. Similarly while there are many players playing on CONCACAF national teams who play in MLS or similar level leagues I think international level play is much higher. This is because all of the decent CONCACAF teams are not like a regular MLS team but like a MLS all star team with the best players of this level plus a few superior players from European leagues thrown in. We have talked about this a lot before but in my opinion Onstad has always been a poor international level keeper even if we don't count the Jamaica mistake. The reasons he failed to establish himself in Europe are the same reasons he failed to be an adequate national team keeper for us.

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The reason why Onstad is not an attractive option for European clubs is because of his age. Onstad success started at 34-35. Like I've said in another thread, if Onstad was 25-26 instead of 40, with the way he's been playing in MLS in the last few years he would found jobs in Europe easily.

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quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

Onstad already failed to stick in Europe when he was in his early 30's. I don't think he would stick now either in any decent Euro league.

You failed to understand my point. 8-10 yrs ago Onstad, when in went in Scotland, wasn't at the same level he is now. That's not revelant to the argument. The point is that if he was 25 and going in Europe tomorrow, he would be able to find jobs in Norway or Scotland or similar leagues. Look at Lars who is at a similar level than Pat, he was able to find jobs in Norway and had a good run there.

Ask any MLS fan, Pat is among the best in the league, no doubt.

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Lars is a much better keeper than Onstad in my opinion. Maybe at times when he was not playing for his club and in game shape he has played at Onstad's level for the national team but when he is playing he is far better. Even not playing at Cluj he was still better than Onstad for the national team when he replaced him in this WCQ. I haven't seen much improvement in Onstad over the years, he just found a league with a low enough level that he could play in it. MLS is also a pretty high scoring league so the typical bad goal that he gives up doesn't hurt the team as much as it would in a more defensive league like Scotland. I am not saying Lars is a world class keeper either but he is better than a mediocre keeper than Onstand. You overrate him far too much.

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Well, I've never seen Onstad letting a ball going through his hands and legs like Lars did (but he was saved by a fantom offside...). But Lars and Pat both put a CK in their own net in the last year....

Lars played 5 games, 1 tie and 4 loss. I'm not really sure he was an improvement over Onstad, he made some excellent stops and some mistakes as well (see my first paragraph for an obvious example).

I doubt Lars is a much better keeper, if he was, he would've started over Onstad in that first game. They are probably at a similar level.

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Lars looked much better to me and most of the other posters who commented on the forum than Onstad when he replaced him in WCQ. And that is comparing a Lars who was not playing for his club and not in game shape with an Onstad who is in game shape. Onstad started precisely for this reason, Mitchell was worried that Lars was not in game shape and Lars was injured during the St. V and G series so Mitchell wasn't able to test his form in a less important game. I don't think we want to get into a lets compare flubs debate because the list of Onstad flubs is pretty long. He makes a lot of flubs in MLS as well but in a league where 4-2 is a common score they are not as costly as they would be in a European league. Lars has played well in Champions League against some top teams who would have destroyed Onstad so I think there is a significant difference in playing level.

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Lars looked much better to me and most of the other posters who commented on the forum than Onstad when he replaced him in WCQ. And that is comparing a Lars who was not playing for his club and not in game shape with an Onstad who is in game shape. Onstad started precisely for this reason, Mitchell was worried that Lars was not in game shape and Lars was injured during the St. V and G series so Mitchell wasn't able to test his form in a less important game. I don't think we want to get into a lets compare flubs debate because the list of Onstad flubs is pretty long. He makes a lot of flubs in MLS as well but in a league where 4-2 is a common score they are not as costly as they would be in a European league. Lars has played well in Champions League against some top teams who would have destroyed Onstad so I think there is a significant difference in playing level.

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quote:Originally posted by loyola

Well, I've never seen Onstad letting a ball going through his hands and legs like Lars did (but he was saved by a fantom offside...). But Lars and Pat both put a CK in their own net in the last year....

I haven't checked the replay to see whether the offside call was correct or not. But, I agree that had that goal stood, I would call that one as a bigger blunder than the one by Onstad against Jamaica.

The Onstad own goal against was clearly a mistake. Mistakes usually happen when players are faced with unique situation. In this case the corner was an in swinger near the post so he was a bit off his line. It was actaully a bad corner kick because it was placed in areas where you dont expect most corners to go. The argument against Onstad was that he has made too many of these when wearing the Cnd uniform and that hence a permanent change was necessary.

But the one by Lars at the start of the game against Honduras was just poor GK'ing because it was a play that keepers at all levels face routinely and are expected to face and are expected to handle.

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quote:Originally posted by loyola

Well, I've never seen Onstad letting a ball going through his hands and legs like Lars did (but he was saved by a fantom offside...). But Lars and Pat both put a CK in their own net in the last year....

Lars played 5 games, 1 tie and 4 loss. I'm not really sure he was an improvement over Onstad, he made some excellent stops and some mistakes as well (see my first paragraph for an obvious example).

I doubt Lars is a much better keeper, if he was, he would've started over Onstad in that first game. They are probably at a similar level.

Playing form / level of ability is not a big factor in Dale Mitchell's scheme of things. He likes Pat; he doesn't like Lars. End of reasons.

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quote:Originally posted by Ed

Playing form / level of ability is not a big factor in Dale Mitchell's scheme of things. He likes Pat; he doesn't like Lars. End of reasons.

That really doesn't make sense considering Lars played most of the games. I think Mitchell looked a lot at who was playing or not at the time. I think for that reason he didn't play Imhof when he was just back from injury and hadn't played with the team. You can argue for or against this but it is a valid strategy and wasn't one of Mitchell's failings in my opinion.

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quote:Originally posted by Free kick

I haven't checked the replay to see whether the offside call was correct or not. But, I agree that had that goal stood, I would rather that one as a bigger blunder than the one by Onstad against Jamaica.

The Onstad own goal against was clearly a mistake. Mistakes usually happen when players are faced with unique situation. In this case the corner was an in swinger near the post so he was a bit off his line. It was actaully a bad corner kick because it was placed in areas where you dont expect most corners to go. The argument against Onstad was that he has made too many of these when wearing the Cnd uniform and that hence a permanent change was becessary.

But the one by Lars at the start of the game against Honduras was just poor GK'ing because it was a play that keepers at all levels face routinely and are expected to face and are expected to handle.

I think they were both equally huge blunders and Lars did get lucky on the offside call. However, I think if we were to make a list of blunders both professional and international play I think Onstad's list would be far longer.

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quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

I think they were both equally huge blunders and Lars did get lucky on the offside call. However, I think if we were to make a list of blunders both professional and international play I think Onstad's list would be far longer.

Well, ask Dynamo fans if you want but everytime I've spoken with them (on BS) they all have been elogious about Onstad performances. I'm not really sure where these story of constant blunders come from, specially at the club level. Even with Canada, Onstad hasn't made that many blunders (one in 2004 and one in 2008). It's just that people remember those because of the fact they happened in WCQ.

No one has blamed Lars for the Mexico second goal in Chiapas, but what about placing a player on the first post? Do you think Onstad, with his experience, would've forget that?

I'm not really sure Onstad makes more mistakes than Lars, sometimes it's just a question of whether you are going to pay for it or not. Lars has been lucky with us, often flapping at crosses and flat kciking a few back passes with no disastrous results.

Ed, you were perfectly fine with Onstad starting over Lars, what happened?

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^ Yes I was fine at the time. Just pointing out that I think DM's starting eleven decisions are based on a number of factors, with playing form down the list (well after, 'Is he one of my favourites?').

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Lars got 3 games in a row, CR, South Africa and Estonia. But when he started to struggle with his club situation with bad performances (in March 2008) and got injured, Mitchell relied on Pat. Add to that the fact that Pat was having a good summer with Houston in the MLS and the SuperLiga, it was a defendable decision.

If Lars had kept his starting job with Cluj instead of starting the 2008-2009 season as third string keeper, he would've probably have a pretty good shot at starting....I don't think it has anything to do with favoritism.

The fact that Lars was called back at the first moment Pat had a bad game is also an indication that favoritism wasn't a problem with Onstad selection.

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"I think they were both equally huge blunders and Lars did get lucky on the offside call. However, I think if we were to make a list of blunders both professional and international play I think Onstad's list would be far longer."

Probably because Onstad has been playing professionally for orders of magnitude more years than has Hirschfeld. Statistically such an analysis would be meaningless. Divide the list of blunders by the number of professional games played and you might end up with a slightly more meaningful number.

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quote:Originally posted by Richard

"I think they were both equally huge blunders and Lars did get lucky on the offside call. However, I think if we were to make a list of blunders both professional and international play I think Onstad's list would be far longer."

Probably because Onstad has been playing professionally for orders of magnitude more years than has Hirschfeld. Statistically such an analysis would be meaningless. Divide the list of blunders by the number of professional games played and you might end up with a slightly more meaningful number.

This is interesting. I just took a look at their club carrer stats. Since 2003 (the year Lars went in Europe and Pat signed in the MLS), Pat has played 100 more games than Lars. If it wasn't for Rosenborg, Lars would've played approx 20 games. Apart from the 6 Champions League games for Lars, all th agames were played at a similar level (Norway, a couple in Scotland and a few in CCC).

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quote:Originally posted by loyola

Lars got 3 games in a row, CR, South Africa and Estonia. But when he started to struggle with his club situation with bad performances (in March 2008) and got injured, Mitchell relied on Pat. Add to that the fact that Pat was having a good summer with Houston in the MLS and the SuperLiga, it was a defendable decision.

If Lars had kept his starting job with Cluj instead of starting the 2008-2009 season as third string keeper, he would've probably have a pretty good shot at starting....I don't think it has anything to do with favoritism.

The fact that Lars was called back at the first moment Pat had a bad game is also an indication that favoritism wasn't a problem with Onstad selection.

I think your points are all valid ones.

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

That really doesn't make sense considering Lars played most of the games. I think Mitchell looked a lot at who was playing or not at the time. I think for that reason he didn't play Imhof when he was just back from injury and hadn't played with the team. You can argue for or against this but it is a valid strategy and wasn't one of Mitchell's failings in my opinion.

I also agree with Grizzly's points here, though one position where he chose to go with a player who was not playing at club level was his captain at RB.

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quote:Originally posted by loyola

Well, I've never seen Onstad letting a ball going through his hands and legs like Lars did (but he was saved by a fantom offside...).

It wasn't a phantom offside, and what's more the whistle had already blown before the ball reached Lars. When the whistle blows players tend to relax a little. As such I'm willing to give Lars the benefit of the doubt on that one.

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quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

It wasn't a phantom offside, and what's more the whistle had already blown before the ball reached Lars. When the whistle blows players tend to relax a little. As such I'm willing to give Lars the benefit of the doubt on that one.

It was onside (50-50), I frozed it on my TV after the game and it was a close call but onside.

BTW, I clearly remember that Lars embarrassed look after the ball went through him, it wasn't a case of a player relaxing. Anyways, poor goalkeeping on that one which IMO doesn't mean much in the debate of whether he is better than Onstad or not. It just showed that Lars isn't the saviour people used to think he was.

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