ted Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 ************** GRUMPY OLD FART WARNING ************* DO NOT READ IF YOU OBJECT TO PICKING AT OLD WOUNDS, BEATING DEAD HORSES OR REFIGHTING OLD BATTLES. ****************************************************** Ben Knight's blog post of November 6, 2008 (A wise voice from the past) has some startling information that makes me physically ill and perhaps too angry to write this. But when has that ever stopped me? Ben wrote: quote:I have wondered for years how someone as clever and passionate as Gentile could ever have thought the CUSL was a good idea. Turns out: he didn't. “We were under strict orders to stick with the narrative the Canadian Soccer Association proposed, regardless of my personal feelings,” Gentile told me in an e-mail this afternoon. “And so we did what we were told, and it turned out to be a mistake in judgment that I have regretted ever since.” In one fell swoop everything I thought I knew about Gerry and the CUSL has been ripped to shreds. I now see that I was deceived and betrayed. I went into the CUSL project with the understanding that this was a project being led by Gerry based on ideas he had collected and was being developed in a collaborative spirit by fans of the game. I understood he took our work to the CSA and got them to give it some backing. I was never told that our work was in any way being guided, controlled or dictated by the CSA. What is even more galling is that I feel we were betrayed by a man who, if he speaks the truth now, never believed in what we were doing. What makes it so egregious is that it was an idea he developed and championed - the loyalty card scheme - that really destroyed the plan (see my post to the topic: 6 years later: the CUSL revisited). Of course, now I don't know if that particularly retarded idea came from Gerry at all or was it supposedly dropped in our laps like an anchor? Makes me wonder why I bother. ************* END OF OLD FART'S RANT *************** PLEASE RETURN TO YOUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED PROGRAMING **************************************************** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 That would be msot frustrating. I remember that time and all those dicussions we all had on the CUSL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettermirror Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 How were you involved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted November 7, 2008 Author Share Posted November 7, 2008 quote:Originally posted by bettermirror How were you involved? Well, I wrote the first rough draft of the proposal for the CUSL (available here) and was part of a couple of teleconferences and made most of my contributions via email. Loyalty Card Program: I should clarify my objections to the card program as proposed in the final CUSL presentation. I objected to the idea that every single soccer player registered to the CSA would have to pay for the privilege of getting this card and a t-shirt and "free tickets" to games they could not attend if they didn't live in cities with CUSL teams. It always looked like another tax on players and looked like a huge component of the league revenue in the first years. I don't think that mom's and dad's wanted to subsidize a pro league. I don't think much has changed in that regard. And while I am at it, Ben waxed rhapsodic about the "new" ides from Gerry. Sorry I didn't get to listen to the broadcast but none of the idea mentioned in the blog post were new!?! Certainly not new to all the people on these forums right here who have been proposing the same ideas in different forms for a decade. [xx(] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fort York Redcoat1555362293 Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 This is the first I've heard of the CUSL. I listened to the podcast and was very impressed with people in game in our country being vocal and offering possibilities instead of the usual dismantle first think later. I'm sorry you feel betrayed by Gerry's unconvinced attitude when it came to the possibility of the CUSL's success but (and this is a new guy's question) could this have been Gerry trying to make the best within the system? The idea he wasn't 100% on may have been the best or only move forward possible when faced with an association that is renewed so seldom? With the people involved in the CSA working so long to get to their respective positions its no wonder they are so cautious to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted November 7, 2008 Author Share Posted November 7, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Fort York Redcoat I'm sorry you feel betrayed by Gerry's unconvinced attitude when it came to the possibility of the CUSL's success but (and this is a new guy's question) could this have been Gerry trying to make the best within the system? Well, that would be the nicest way to put it and I am sure he would see it that way. But even in that case he should not have been in charge of the whole thing or he should have been honest and told the entire team of people working on it what was happening. Pretending we were at arms length from the CSA when clearly we were under their thumb is not acceptable to me. Pretending we were working on assumptions deemed viable when clearly he had doubts is not acceptable in someone leading a team. It's like finding out your coach never thought you had a chance in hell of winning any games all season but kept telling you the team was gonna make the playoffs. Would you really want that guy coaching your team? Wouldn't you feel betrayed if years later he admitted it in public? But then, I'm just a guy who got burned but only today found out who supplied the gasoline can. [] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fort York Redcoat1555362293 Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 I'm really sorry and truly appreciate any work you've done to improve the game here. I can imagine it's little consolation but I think the issue revisited on the show may have given insight to those who haven't scoured the archives of the board. If his next project takes at least we know someone who took one for the team. (I'm assuming you'll take a pass on that project, yes? Once thrown under the bus...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 quote:Originally posted by ted I was never told that our work was in any way being guided, controlled or dictated by the CSA. Perhaps you have right to feel disappointed that he was not forth right with you. But imagine how the three clubs at the time ( Impact, Lynx and Caps) must feel if they also were not aware that the CSA was behind the project. You had nothing invested of your own, but were ( for lack of better word) a facilitator. So i dont see what there would be to for you take personally. But the clubs, who have to worry about revenues and cost, must be really miffed that someone who is making them a pitch was not fully open with them and not telling them who was behind the idea. And you could understand if they now feel a certain mistrust. As far as the rest of the piece, I have to agree with Ben's position then and now regarding this project. For a multitude of reasons that i could not do justice to without writing a post that will go on for ever. Its not ( nor ever was) the role of the national body to start or form national leagues. Though some, to this day still delusionally think that it is. Its up to private investors. But it looks like they tried. Therefore, it should put to rest the suggestion that they never did anything to help the establishment of a pro league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted November 7, 2008 Author Share Posted November 7, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Free kick Its not ( nor ever was) the role of the national body to start or form national leagues. Though some, to this day still delusionally think that it is. Its up to private investors. As I saw it, the whole point of the CUSL proposal was to have a plan the CSA could support (not control or develop) that would bring together private investors and the three existing clubs. Nothing has changed about making pro soccer work. To create TFC they had to bring together the CSA, private investors and an existing league. There is a world of difference between being just one of several stakeholders and running the whole project. BTW, I never said the clubs did not know of the CSA's involvement. I am only speaking of my personal involvement and I can feel how I want about what was done to me thank you very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag futbol Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Free kick You are right, it isn't the job of the CSA to do this work, BUT the CSA can help faciliate and set the conditions to help get things done which can help the good of the game. In this case, they just didn't take the time-effort to do look at the situation and determine what the best course of action was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Knight Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 Okay, as I understand it: Gerry wanted to set up a situation where the A League (USL-1, as it's called now) had a whole bunch of Canadian teams, playing interlocking schedules with American teams. Somewhere very early on, the idea morphed -- against Gerry's will -- into the Canadian United Soccer League. There's a lot of material here, and I'll be writing a lot about it in the weeks to come. It's going to take a little while to get it together, because key people are travelling all the time. It's a shock, all right -- but I think it might actually clear the way to a better debate. Hang in there, folks. Truth is emerging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Knight Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 And if anyone wants to listen for themselves, here's the link: http://www.fan590.com/onair/soccer/media.jsp?content=20081107_005754_7128 We start talking about it around seven or eight minutes in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luis_Rancagua Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 Can we determine that Gerry Gentile is making comeback. That certain ideas of the CUSL are being re-visit perhaps for a semi-professional level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachRich Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 1. CUSL - Was a great radio show on the past CUSL. I like many can't see the need for a national league. Maybe provincial leagues that funnel into regional play downs & then nationals. Cost is too high for small clubs to afford teams. Easiset test for a Pro League is will the teams be able to afford to pay the players a liveable wage. If not it's not a Pro league in a big footprint the players like the W-League don't stay around. If it's a small footprint a pro-am league could exist. The bottom line about the funnel of soccer in Canada is no one cooperates in connecting the various entities into a bottom to top funnel. It's a joke due to people's self interest & a NSO that is clueless w/ no passion or professionalism. 2. Discussion about state of the union in Canadian Soccer - a really open minded discussion about the structure of soccer in Canada. Keeping it simple is a core failure of the lack of structure in Canada. Everyone had some good insights but at the end what's the action plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Knight Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 I'm going to look back to my lacrosse days. Jr. A lacrosse is a regional sport that doesn't draw huge amounts of spectators, but raises its own money, has an annual national championship, and consistently produces world-class players. There are lessons there for soccer -- certainly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leekoo Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 Myth 1 – Money is the Problem In this four part series, the former chair of the CSA Working Group and the man who presented the CUSL Blueprint to Sepp Blatter and Michel Platini, speaks out for an alternative vision for soccer in Canada. Gerry Gentile has co-founded 5 successful high tech businesses which have sold over $10 billion worth of products and services globally. As we lament yet another recent failed World Cup qualifying campaign and as we see the rate of growth for registrations decline to less than 4% per year, it is clear that to reinvigorate the game in Canada, our one and only Goal should be to qualify for the World Cup finals… not once but always. Participation, registrations and the financial health of the game, its clubs and associations depends on it. Gentile's Canadian Soccer Myth #1 have a click here http://www.insidesoccer.net/?p=1813 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 ^ I suggest people stay tuned in to the next 3 installments. I am sure many of you will find it very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 http://www.network54.com/Forum/4693/message/1004202437/you+don%27t+have+all+the+facts---- _________________________________________________ Just to clarify things, here is what Nicole Hartrel had posted in this very forum in regards to CUSL way back at the time. The conclusions shouldn't surprise anyone since it is what many of us have been saying. The fate of subsequent USL teams in Canada kind of support her claims. The big question one might ask is if the funding would have been there with different parties at the table? Well two of the three parties are still there today. _________________________________________________ you don't have all the facts.... by nicole hartrell When we were approached in the fall of 1998 regarding the establishment of a Canadian Domestic League...all the A-League clubs ( not just the Lynx) felt that historically Canada had shown that it simply did not have the economic base nor the population to support a Divison One League. This is true not only for soccer but also for other professional sports. This fact does not make us less Canadian. We encouraged the CSA to do an objective study to investigate if this would be financially viable. ( May I add while we wait for a strictly Canadian Domestic League to be established...the corporate community and media take a wait and see attitude adding further to the hardship of pro clubs in our country and further confusion) One year later the KPMG report was produced supporting and underscoring all of our concerns...the CANADA LACKED THE CRITICAL FACTORS to make a domestic league viable-some of these factors were lack of large capacity stadia; lack of coverage by main stream media; lack of corporate support and lack of government support and finally the inability of the soccer governing bodies to work together for resolving these factors. In short, a pro soccer league in Canada was a high risk proposition. This all the owners knew...pro soccer is not a get rich quick scheme...many of us work long hours and have made many financial sacrifices to develop and showcase Canadian soccer in our country. Every one at the meeting felt that we should simply try to grow the game via the A-League clubs and the CPSL clubs and build on what we realistic could do. However, the CSA wanted to continue pursuing a domestic league. We encouraged the CSA that if it wanted to continue to do so, the committee that was struct had to also find ways of overcoming the missing critical factors ( especially the financing of such a league). We deligently worked with the working group to try and find a compromise and bring everyone together on this. The result of these efforts was the CUSL concept which was presented in the fall on 2000.We were told that big name corporate types like Coca Cola had been approached and had indicated that they would be prepared to fund such a league to the tune of $25,000,000. Although we all had reservattions, the Lynx encouraged everyone to go along with the plan because we believed that soccer fans were anxious for the country to work together towards this..united we stand..divided we fall. We continued to work with the subcommittees to establish this new League..however..it was becoming very apparent that the FUNDING FOR THIS NEW LEAGUE SIMPLY IS NOT THERE. The funding was based on the enormous data bases of soccer registrations across the country and a smart card concept that corporate Canada would buy into. Unfortunately only Ontario has these data bases in electronic form. It would take many years to bring all the other provinces in line if we could get them all to agree. In addition, there the problem of privacy laws for these data bases. Even if we could overcome these, corporate CANADA IS UNABLE TO PUT A VALUE ON THIS Meetings with various marketing groups did not produce any financial commitments from these in any real way.I have yet to see written documentation from anyone stating that they would be prepared to fund this league. The funding was also supposed to come from European Alliances...to my knowledge, only several have shown "interest" but no real commitment.The CUSL group also tried to get funding via a television agreement. The television stations ( I will not name them)would maybe carry our games only if we paid for the production. Who would pay? Each game costs approximately $30,000 to produce. Try to sell sponsorship for this...right now a 30 second advertisement for pro soccer may bring in $250..this doesn't go very far.All this lack of funding became evident as early as April 2001-at that time..they hoped that maybe just maybe we could get $2,000,000- $5,000,000. By July, it was apparent that there were no funds at all. In addition the people driving the CUSL were making decisions without seeking input from the owners of the A-League and the CPSL. This is very unjust considering that we're the only ones PAYING THE BILLS. I could go on and on....suffice to say that Bruno and I have been a model of generosity and co-operation. But we must wake up and smell the coffee. We must come up with a solution that is realistic. In addition, control of any Domestic league must be in the hands of those who are paying the bills and who have the experience of running pro clubs. I can assure you that it's very different from running an amateur club or association. Bruno and I have given everything we had to develop and showcase professional soccer in our City. When others walked...we remained. When faced with the most fragmented soccer market...we continue to try to bring soccer people together for the national good....This wee, we simply exposed the truth...and the truth shall set us free and allow us to put strategies in place that will allow us to succeed! Stay tuned... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trillium Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Ben Knight I'm going to look back to my lacrosse days. Jr. A lacrosse is a regional sport that doesn't draw huge amounts of spectators, but raises its own money, has an annual national championship, and consistently produces world-class players. There are lessons there for soccer -- certainly. Your right Ben and if the pooh bahs at the CSA would have a structure for the competitive game as they do in Brasil, most of our issues will be solved. Provincial leagues, provinces soon sorted to A and B Canada Cup competitions, so you have to play in your provincial competition, the go on to a National Cup. Its affordable and realistic. Thats why the CSA wont do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Ben Knight And if anyone wants to listen for themselves, here's the link: http://www.fan590.com/onair/soccer/media.jsp?content=20081107_005754_7128 We start talking about it around seven or eight minutes in. Terrific show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Knight Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 The beauty of it, Trillium, is that the CSA doesn't HAVE to do it. It can just happen. All the biggest forward steps right now are being taken anyway. If the CSA wants to sign on, fine. If not? Oh, well. We cannot wait for these guys. We'll be waiting forever if we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 the following is a message from Gerry Gentile, in response to Ted's original post: I was sorry to read how Ted felt betrayed by my comments to Ben Knight… that was certainly the last thing I would want to do, because he was a loyal member of the CUSL team and a good friend of mine. He deserves an explanation; I hope this note clarifies things. In December of 1999, Jim Fleming, then the president of the CSA, heard me speak out during an YRSA meeting. I spoke against the endless stream of people coming up to the microphone to spew negative sentiments but not offering solutions. I suggested that people needed to become part of the solution and that they should get off their soap boxes, where they did nothing but regurgitate the same old tired excuses and complaints about the things holding soccer back in Canada. When asked “ok smart aleck what’s your bright idea” I suggested we needed to leverage the marketing value of the CSA membership demographic to raise enough money from corporate Canada to fund a world class player development system and tie it into a national player development league. That was my belief then and remains my belief today. Those who say it’s the same old story from Gerry are correct. I make no apologies for that. Jim Fleming as a result of my comments asked me to join him at the special meeting being held in Montreal where KPMG were going to reveal their findings. As predicted they confirmed that professional soccer was not viable in Canada. That set off a storm during the meeting. Everyone was asked to provide input. Some were very emotional with tears, and some were very angry pounding the table with their fists. When it was my time to speak I said that although KPMG’s report may have been superficial, I agreed with what they said, and that was, pro soccer if pursued with the same model and approach as in the past was not viable and a new league would be doomed to fail. Foolishly, I ended with the comment, “maybe we need a new approach”. Before I knew it, I was the Chairman of the CSA Pro Soccer Working Group with a mandate and orders to: • Study the economics of soccer in Canada • Based on findings create a financial model to help pro soccer thrive financially • Implement the financial model into a blueprint and present it to the board Before long I was bombarded with phone calls from reporters and requests for television interviews. I admitted to Ben the other day that I made the big mistake of getting caught up in the passion and euphoria about a potential new league and that I convinced myself that we could do it, in other words, we would show the skeptics how it was going to be done, despite my core belief that a professional development program with a network of training centers linked to a national amateur league was the better way. Was that betrayal towards the committee? I did not see it that way. I was “trying” to help the cause and was willing to have my mind changed if proven that it could be done. We had challenges from all sides. For example it was clear that Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal had little interest in leaving the USL. (Couldn’t blame them, it was an established league ours was just a plan) Also, the soccer associations made it clear they had no interest in allowing the revenue, expected to be raised from the membership database affinity programs, to be spent on an American league. It had to be Canadian. Having said all that, I still think the plan we created was an excellent one because it reached common ground. If you read it carefully, you will see that what we were saying was the following: 1. We wanted 6 more teams to join Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto and Calgary in the A-League brining the number of teams to 10. (eventually 12) 2. We would share with them the $10M raised from the affinity program to get the other potential owners off the fence and help the existing ones. A financially stable set of 10 teams was our goal. I was not worried about an east-west or north-south competition. 3. We would impose minimum standards on the franchises in exchange for the funding, such as International UEFA A licensed head coaches, rosters made up of 95% Canadian players, reserve teams, youth academies, etc. 4. All CSA registered players were entitled to free admission to games and given an affinity card entitling them to prizes and discounts on purchases from Corporate Canada partner. 5. To reach common ground and consensus we sold the concept of two leagues, one interlocking schedule. 6. We named this concept the C-USL. Now it’s up to each individual whether they viewed it as a new Canadian professional league or a Canadian division of the USL, but the end result would have been fantastic for Canadian soccer if it was allowed to launch. Imagine where we would be today if we had had for the last 8 years, 10 to 12 A-League teams at the level of Vancouver and Montreal, receiving close to $1 million per year subsidies, all stocked mainly with young Canadian talent, and coached by world class coaches, who also ran the player development academy youth reserve teams? - Gerry Gentile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachRich Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Ben Knight The beauty of it, Trillium, is that the CSA doesn't HAVE to do it. It can just happen. All the biggest forward steps right now are being taken anyway. If the CSA wants to sign on, fine. If not? Oh, well. We cannot wait for these guys. We'll be waiting forever if we do. Gets my vote :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 quote:Originally posted by VPjr 1. We wanted 6 more teams to join Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto and Calgary in the A-League brining the number of teams to 10. (eventually 12) Its starts with the clubs. You cant have a league without having clubs. You cant have a club without investors. Sounds too simple but it is. League are not founded out of the blue, clubs come together to form leagues not the other way around. MLS is the exception to the rule, but much of its problems trace right to back to this issue. They wouldn't have had the growing pains attendance-wise if the brand was stronger and firmly established in each market. The tone of this discussion today is a little bit different than it was at that time. At no point was anyone under the impression that that what was being conceived by CUSL was another amateur league. As such, such a proposal would be a none starter with the three existing pro clubs today. Funny, but if you read, that thread at the time that the idea was sacked, everyone blamed the clubs. What that segment of the soccer show did mention that was very important, was the emphasis and need of a competitive amateur circuit whose objective is to develop professional talent. But you cant have an amateur circuit without well established and financially sound senior clubs. Hopefully, TFC and the whitecaps will make it happen but you need the Impact on board and right now all they have is a reserve team which is nothing more than a Farm team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leekoo Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 Myth 2 – Professional Soccer is the Problem In this four part series, the former chair of the CSA Working Group and the man who presented the CUSL Blueprint to Sepp Blatter and Michel Platini, speaks out for an alternative vision for soccer in Canada. Gerry Gentile has co-founded 5 successful high tech businesses which have sold over $10 billion worth of products and services globally. What if Canada had not defeated Honduras 2-1 in St John’s, Newfoundland, on a cold September 15th in 1985 and thus not qualified for our one and only appearance at the World Cup Finals? Would we still be convinced that not having our own national professional soccer league has prevented us from qualifying for another World Cup finals? What if that theory was wrong, that other factors such as luck, weather, weaker competition, or an unusually strong group of players and coaches converged to be at the right place and at the right time had allowed us to qualify? Gentile's Canadian Soccer Myth #2 have a click here http://www.insidesoccer.net/?p=1825 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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