VPjr Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 http://www.thestar.com/Sports/Soccer/article/525052 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 I wonder if there is underlying animosity related to something that was announced in Glasgow on July 12th, 1989. He goes a bit overboard, in my opinion, by conveniently neglecting to mention that after 13 games the team had 21 points and looked like dead certs for a playoff spot. Not bad after a winter of supposed inactivity. What went wrong in July, August and September should be the main issue as that is what led to missing out on the playoffs and the CONCACAF Champions League. I personally think having a British coach who very much favours a pressing style and a 442 revolving around long balls to a tall target man was not a recipe for success in a North American summer. A lot of points were lost late on in games at that point and I suspect tired legs due to a relative lack of possession had a lot to do with it. Mo doesn't get off the hook for that because he appointed John Carver but the main task this winter should be building a roster that can also play more of a possession style when the conditions demand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 I think that he was a little harsh on the the USL sides by calling them semi pro. But what I mostly concur with Kelly is his criticism of the the Maurice Edu sale. Good teams that make money, have track record of success and are recognized just dont sell their quality young players unless: the player really wants out, the team has no room for him, or they can replace him with someone better. But TFC has sold out every ticket in their stadium, has a waiting list and had ambitions of developing and growing their brand. You dont do that by making moves that hinder you ability to move up in the standings in favour of "cash grab" moves. There was time in the January transfer window to sell Edu and there is no reason to believe that they wouldn't have received the same money ( 5 Mill$ ) if not more from Rangers. In the end, they didn't make the playoffs and you have wonder what could have been had they at least waited to sell Edu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegan Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Doesn't MLS own contracts? Pretty sure MLS accepts and rejects bids and that means it was up to MLS and Edu not Toronto. Edu was an overrated waste of space imo. I am very happy they sold him then because common sense might have kicked in for Rangers by January. 5 million for an average midfielder who doesn't give a #$@!? Or even run? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Keegan Doesn't MLS own contracts? Pretty sure MLS accepts and rejects bids and that means it was up to MLS and Edu not Toronto. yes, the league owns the contract and the transfer fees are split between club and league. TFC's portion was 3Mill$ i believe. But come on! the league decides who stays and who goes on each each team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 I think the franchises get a veto. The Revolution blocked Twellman's move to Preston North End, for example:- http://www.soccer-new-england.com/Twellman-Disappointed-Not-Bitter.html Have to say that I agree with Keegan that Edu was overrated but I wouldn't go as far as calling him a waste of space. Would he have started ahead of either Guevara or Robinson in the 4-4-2 that Carver has favoured of late? I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard I think the franchises get a veto. The Revolution blocked Twellman's move to Preston North End, for example:- http://www.soccer-new-england.com/Twellman-Disappointed-Not-Bitter.html Have to say that I agree with keegan that Edu was overrated but I wouldn't go as far as calling him a waste of space. Would he have started ahead of either Guevara or Robinson in the 4-4-2 that Carver has favoured of late? I don't think so. I am some what aware of the cicumstances surrounding Taylor twellman and PNE. It would be illogical to have each team individual player personel moves dictated by the league. We all know that the league has final say. But thats not what we are disputing here. It was TFC's decision to sell Edu. Not MLS. There are a lot of things that you can find fault with in regards to how MLS is structured and run. But think of how bush league it would be if it was that these moves were league driven rather than club driven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard Have to say that I agree with Keegan that Edu was overrated but I wouldn't go as far as calling him a waste of space. Would he have started ahead of either Guevara or Robinson in the 4-4-2 that Carver has favoured of late? I don't think so. Ah, but now that Robinson's out of contract, would Edu not've been a good and (relatively) cheaper candidate for the holding mid role going forward? Or is it your opinion that Robinson's 330K for a holding role good value for the money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 quote:Originally posted by El Hombre Ah, but now that Robinson's out of contract, would Edu not've been a good and (relatively) cheaper candidate for the holding mid role going forward? Or is it your opinion that Robinson's 330K for a holding role good value for the money? That's another point I meant to raise. He was cheap and in a cap system thats a luxury to have. Even if he did suffer somewhat of a sophomore jinx, his value was still high because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 I'm not bothered by the possibility of Robinson leaving. Agree he is overpaid. On the bright side Mo should be able to use 500k in allocation money to get two good players in. He better, anyway, if he still wants to have his job in 2009. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massive Attack Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 The article is hit and miss. But it is nice to see Mo Johnston being questioned by anyone in the Toronto media. Nothing worse than giving him a free pass. Kelly does hit the nail on the head with his last paragraph though with this comment: "Two seasons into his Toronto tenure, Johnston has proven himself a master at managing expectations." Johnson seems better at making excuses and teasing the fans than actually running the team. It would have been nice if Kelly had mentioned the Barry McLean angle. I wish someone who covers this team would look into that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Free kick yes, the league owns the contract and the transfer fees are split between club and league. TFC's portion was 3Mill$ i believe. But come on! the league decides who stays and who goes on each each team? No. The team has to approve any deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 While it's nice to see some criticism of Mo in the press, I agree that the article is OTT. I think the reason why most fans didn't consider the team to be worse than last season is because the team's record & play indicated otherwise. At most the team was as bad as it was last year and perhaps more disappointing, but it's difficult to argue the team was worse. There's also no need to denigrate Vancouver & Montreal in order to make TFC's year look worse than it was. Vancouver won the league, Montreal is in the Q-F of the Champions League, that speaks for how "semi-pro" those organizations are. Worst of all though is that the article is not critical of Mo in the area where he deserves it and annoyingly goes in the opposite direction by maintaining that the Canadian quotas imposed upon TFC are unfair. It's incredible that anyone out there still believes this & is in some way pointing to the quotas as a cause of TFC's poor record this year & the team's loss in the Champions league qualifying to teams that had twice as many Canadians on the field as we did. If the quota is unfair to anyone it is the other teams in the league, not TFC, given that they have 18 international spots (several of which were not used) & can sign anyone from the entire Canadian player pool and still couldn't get a full roster. Two years on and the majority of the best Canadians in the league are still playing for other MLS teams. Seeing Will Johnson take a regular spot with Salt Lake & help them to a playoff spot is aggravating. And yes, I know the argument is that Chicago were never going to deal us his rights after the way we tried to screw them with the McBride deal, but that's precisely why we shouldn't have behaved that way in the first place - you just knew that the next time a Canadian player came back from Europe and another team had his rights that this would happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massive Attack Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca Worst of all though is that the article is not critical of Mo in the area where he deserves it and annoyingly goes in the opposite direction by maintaining that the Canadian quotas imposed upon TFC are unfair. It's incredible that anyone out there still believes this & is in some way pointing to the quotas as a cause of TFC's poor record this year & the team's loss in the Champions league qualifying to teams that had twice as many Canadians on the field as we did. If the quota is unfair to anyone it is the other teams in the league, not TFC, given that they have 18 international spots (several of which were not used) & can sign anyone from the entire Canadian player pool and still couldn't get a full roster. This is a great point. I just wanted to add one thing, Toronto FC is possibly the only professional soccer team in the World with absolutely no restrictions on the number of foreigners it can carry. That is amazing when you think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 If Montreal and Vancouver are "semi-pro" what does that make TFC? They manage only 1 win, 2 draws and a loss in 4 games against semi-pro teams? Out of 12 points they got 5 (42%). How pro can they go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted October 27, 2008 Author Share Posted October 27, 2008 quote:Originally posted by tmcmurph If Montreal and Vancouver are "semi-pro" what does that make TFC? They manage only 1 win, 2 draws and a loss in 4 games against semi-pro teams? Out of 12 points they got 5 (42%). How pro can they go? I emailed C. Kelly this morning after reading the column. While I agreed with most of what he had to say I did tell him that I thought labelling the USL teams as semi-pro was out of line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted October 27, 2008 Author Share Posted October 27, 2008 quote:Originally posted by tmcmurph If Montreal and Vancouver are "semi-pro" what does that make TFC? They manage only 1 win, 2 draws and a loss in 4 games against semi-pro teams? Out of 12 points they got 5 (42%). How pro can they go? I emailed C. Kelly this morning after reading the column. While I agreed with most of what he had to say I did tell him that I thought labelling the USL teams as semi-pro was out of line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianSoccerFan Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 I stopped reading this tool's pieces a long time ago. After the "there's no meaningful games for the national team in 2008" story I lost what little respect I had left for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbailey62 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 quote:Originally posted by VPjr I emailed C. Kelly this morning after reading the column. While I agreed with most of what he had to say I did tell him that I thought labelling the USL teams as semi-pro was out of line. You know, I had totally forgotten all about C. Kelly. I'm not going to read this article as I'm just not up to it but I agree with you Dino. Calling the Impact and Whitecaps semi-pro is out of line and in the bigger sense of things shows just how out of the loop C. Kelly is in regards to Canadian soccer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 ^You guys are getting hung up on nothing. The man took some "artistic license" to emphasis a point. He was being dramatic. But being dramatic doesn't change the point TFC failed to qualify in a tournie against clubs who's entire operating budgets are less than TFC's player salary budget. If I'm right in that assumption the point remains very valid and was well made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard Originally posted by Gian-Luca Worst of all though is that the article is not critical of Mo in the area where he deserves it and annoyingly goes in the opposite direction by maintaining that the Canadian quotas imposed upon TFC are unfair. It's incredible that anyone out there still believes this & is in some way pointing to the quotas as a cause of TFC's poor record this year & the team's loss in the Champions league qualifying to teams that had twice as many Canadians on the field as we did. If the quota is unfair to anyone it is the other teams in the league, not TFC, given that they have 18 international spots (several of which were not used) & can sign anyone from the entire Canadian player pool and still couldn't get a full roster. Some obvious inaccuracies in there. TFC did not have 18 international spots this past season. They had the same 8 international spots that everybody else had plus two additional ones for being a recent expansion franchise. Beyond that there was the added ability to sign 5 Americans as domestic content, which is not that surprising in a USSF sanctioned league. The two additional international roster spots have now expired so the trades made to get up to 18 non-Canadian roster spots were to compensate for that next season and were not made with this past season in mind. Bringing up the Canadian Championship is a dubious argument in favour of the quality of Canadian players in USL-D1 given TFC were a missed tap in by Jeff Cunningham away from qualifying despite being on a truly pathetic run of form in an MLS context at the time. The empty roster spot argument is a bogus one given TFC consistently call up CSL players to fill the gaps in reserve games and Monsalve regularly trains with the team and stepped in as a backup when Sutton was unavailable. quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca Two years on and the majority of the best Canadians in the league are still playing for other MLS teams. And therein lies the key problem with having a Canadian domestic quota. All the other teams can also sign Canadian players as well and then extort players, draft picks and/or allocation money before TFC can acquire their rights. The rule changes were needed because other teams and player agents had way too much leverage in supply and demand terms as things stood. The new rules provided enough flexibility to remove that as a problem/excuse but it would be much more sensible from the standpoint of competitive balance to have a completely level playing field by doing what the NASL did by making Americans and Canadians domestic players throughout the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massive Attack Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 The Canadian content is no longer a crutch for Mo Johnston. The only reason it is brought up is that some people actually like having local talent on their team. But arguing that it is part of what makes Johnston's job difficult is ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Best way to counter the claim would probably be to point Cathal in the direction of the reserve league standings:- http://toronto.fc.mlsnet.com/mls/reserve/ A top half finish with a primarily Canadian team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard Some obvious inaccuracies in there. TFC did not have 18 international spots this past season. They had the same 8 international spots that everybody else had plus two additional ones for being a recent expansion franchise. Beyond that there was the added ability to sign 5 Americans as domestic content, which is not that surprising in a USSF sanctioned league. The two additional international roster spots have now expired so the trades made to get up to 18 non-Canadian roster spots were to compensate for that next season and were not made with this past season in mind. Nothing inaccurate about what I wrote. Non-Canadian = Non-Domestic = International. Let's not get into semantics here. The club themselves mentioned that they had 18 international spots, not drawing a distinction between American & other foreigners, and neither was I. They had 18 of them this year, whether they chose not to use some deliberately is up to them. The point is no-one can possibly claim that having to use Canadians is what hurt the team this year. Cathal Kelly mentions it as a potential mitigator factor for Mo's performance, which is bollocks. And it was Cathal Kelly who mentioned that the low point of the season was the failure to win the Canadian Championship in the same article. Anyone who thinks the blame for a failure to beat teams (in a lower league) with more Canadians than we have in a lower league is down to our reliance on Canadian players is leaving in dreamland. quote: The rule changes were needed because other teams and player agents had way too much leverage in supply and demand terms as things stood. It seems to me a very difficult proposition to argue that player agents for Canadian players had too much leverage in supply & demand terms when the agent for the majority of those players is Barry MacLean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I don't think Cathal is claiming that the Canadian quota was a hinderance, in fact i think he's subtley calling Mo a whiner: "Injuries played their part and we can put our arms around each other and spend all day crying about the unfairness of MLS' Canadian player quota and the stupidity of the league's scheduling. But nothing happened that wasn't in full view from the first day of the season.</u> The fault lies first and last with the team's director of soccer, Mo Johnston." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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