gator Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 We needed to play more friendlies, all these hypothetical scenerios of who could have played where and who shouldn't be playing could have at least been partially sorted out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 quote:Originally posted by squizz I don't buy it. At this level, players should be sufficiently motivated and inspired by the knowledge that good performances could help lead them to representing their country at the World Cup. I can think of no more powerful motivation for a player than that. Sure. Yeah. You'd think so. Yet you see everyday at the club level, the level where these same players perform week in and week out in the trivial pursuit of trying to make a living managers hired and fired constantly. Not always because the manager couldn't get his players to perform, but as often as not. So I put a lot down to a managers ability to get the best out of his players, mentally and physically. My fault, your fault, his fault it doesn't matter. His brand has been damaged beyond saving. It doesn't help that Mitch brought a lot of baggage with him to the job and couldn't find a way to overcome that. Being a CSA insider doesn't buy him any favours with a lot of players & fans either. Tough. You charted your own course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Cheeta Sure. Yeah. You'd think so. Yet you see everyday at the club level, the level where these same players perform week in and week out in the trivial pursuit of trying to make a living managers hired and fired constantly. Not always because the manager couldn't get his players to perform, but as often as not. So I put a lot down to a managers ability to get the best out of his players, mentally and physically. My fault, your fault, his fault it doesn't matter. His brand has been damaged beyond saving. It doesn't help that Mitch brought a lot of baggage with him to the job and couldn't find a way to overcome that. Being a CSA insider doesn't buy him any favours with a lot of players & fans either. Tough. You charted your own course. It's funny because the players, apparently, wanted another "CSA insider" to do Mitchell's job... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 ^The one who enjoyed Gold Cup success the same summer of the U20s disaster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nolando Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Man is this WCQ cycle dramatic or what? Well, at least off the field it has been. It's starting to look just the slightest bit like the media you might see in a real footballing country. Great entertainment, anyways. Kudos to Pat for being a man where most have been boys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 quote:Originally posted by loyola That's why the USA have hired Bruce Arena and Bob Bradley? None of these 2 guys has an outstanding coaching record....but the players showed up to play for them and have achieved some nice results along the way. The irony is while we are attacking DM coaching pedigree we're forgetting to talk about Stephen Hart who according to some of our players shouldve been given a chance as the head coach. What is SH coaching credentials like? Well, not very impressive... You've overlooked one key adjective I used.... inspirational. Even a coach with a mediocre resume can work wonders with a group if he is able to inspire them. Happens every day at the club level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Cheeta ^The one who enjoyed Gold Cup success the same summer of the U20s disaster? You are kidding right? You know perfectly well that Hart is on the CSA payroll for longer than Mitchell and that his résumé includes 3 U-17 WCQ failures (one in 2007 after getting 4 pts in the first 2 games and being in a group where 3 out of 5 teams were getting to the WC). The GC was a success I agree and Hart should get some of the credit but history has showed us that it isn't a good way to measure our team ranking in CONCACAF. Hart is also a CSA insider with far less coaching success than Mitchell, it's obvious when you compare both resumé. We would also fooling ourselves if we are to believe that DM had nothing to do with players selection and the formation that was used in the 2007 GC. It was reported in the press that the 2 were in touch everyday during the whole tournament. I guess this means nothing since the players coached themselves during that tournament.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Richard You've overlooked one key adjective I used.... inspirational. Even a coach with a mediocre resume can work wonders with a group if he is able to inspire them. Happens every day at the club level. I'm no english major but when someone wrote something like this: "That's why most real soccer countries look for 'big name', inspirational leaders with an oustanding coaching record to manage their national teams. " I'm expecting the person to be referring to both of these criterias? The last part "oustanding coaching record" is not something Arena nor Bradley had at the time of their hiring... I don't know if Mitchell is an inspirational leader. If I look at the 2007 and 2008 results, I'm tempted to answer NO. If I look at his early result as an U-20 coach, I could say that maybe he was. I knew that the way he was hired it would be a very tough task to have the respect of the players, and this regardless of the fact he should or should not deserve it. The players were immature and followed some of the fans criticisms blindly. Best example is DeRo mentionning the fact that Mitchell U-20 squad scored 0 goal in 2007. If DeRo was more educated about the situation he would realized that we played Chile a team that didn't allowed a goal until the semifinal and who was a lot more superior than us at every position, and that we had a few chances against a pretty strong Austrian squad and that we shot 21 times against Congo (a game I felt we dominated).... and then he should look at our strikers (one is now an ineligible CIS player, the other one was last seen trialing in L2 in England, another one is an NCAA senior, the other one is playing in Germany 4th division). I always think it's a bit unfair to criticize a coach when a team isn't scoring but is creating chances (something we did a bit against Austria and a lot against Congo).It's not like Mitchell cut a goalscoring machine prior to the tournament either. By that standard, Tony Waiters is an awfull coach... I still think the players showed bad attitude and some were unprofessional in their approach of Mitchell being negative from the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearcatSA Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 quote:Originally posted by loyola You are kidding right? You know perfectly well that Hart is on the CSA payroll for longer than Mitchell and that his résumé includes 3 U-17 WCQ failures (one in 2007 after getting 4 pts in the first 2 games and being in a group where 3 out of 5 teams were getting to the WC). The GC was a success I agree and Hart should get some of the credit but history has showed us that it isn't a good way to measure our team ranking in CONCACAF. Hart is also a CSA insider with far less coaching success than Mitchell, it's obvious when you compare both resumé. We would also fooling ourselves if we are to believe that DM had nothing to do with players selection and the formation that was used in the 2007 GC. It was reported in the press that the 2 were in touch everyday during the whole tournament. I guess this means nothing since the players coached themselves during that tournament.... When Mitchell was hired I stated at the time that both he and Hart would be better served as No. 2s in a coaching setup behind a more experienced manager. Now, I would say that Mitchell's stock has obviously dropped and he needs to resurrect it at a club level, but I still think that Hart is of No. 2 status. The reason I advocated for Hart to replace Mitchell after the Honduras match in Montreal was that at least he had a track record of success with this core of players, unlike the current gaffer, and as a stopgap fix he might have been able to renew some confidence in the side again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 quote:Originally posted by BearcatSA When Mitchell was hired I stated at the time that both he and Hart would be better served as No. 2s in a coaching setup behind a more experienced manager. Now, I would say that Mitchell's stock has obviously dropped and he needs to resurrect it at a club level, but I still think that Hart is of No. 2 status. The reason I advocated for Hart to replace Mitchell after the Honduras match in Montreal was that at least he had a track record of success with this core of players, unlike the current gaffer, and as a stopgap fix he might have been able to renew some confidence in the side again. I agree that both would learn with a more experienced manager, no doubt. But your omitting to mention that Mitchell had success with most of those players as a U-20 coach or assistant if it means anything. I have no problems with criticizing Mitchell, what bothers me is the players not taking their responsabilities. DeRo was unable to take any opposing players on a one-on-one and he had many opportunities, why is that? Mitchell's fault? I doubt it is, so please DeRo grow some balls and ask Canadian fans to forgive you for your abject performance instead of taking shot at your coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearcatSA Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 quote:Originally posted by loyola But your omitting to mention that Mitchell had success with most of those players as a U-20 coach or assistant if it means anything. That's true to a certain extent but I put more weight in the very recent past and what's happening now than what happened six plus years ago. That's where my mindset is entrenched, for better or for worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massimo Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 quote:Originally posted by chuphone I find it hard to believe that one man is completely responsible for our failure to advance, just as I would find it hard to believe one man could be responsible for advancement. Response... Marcelo Lippi vs. Roberto Donadoni Fabio Capello vs. The other guy that didn't get England into the Euros Take it for what it is worth. But I strongly believe the manager will make the difference at this level. We aren't talking about u-9 AA boys here. Pat Onstad for National team Manager!!! You heard it here first. ;p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildguy27 Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Good for him for speaking out, putting aside any personal feelings he might have for being bumped off the roster altogether for these last couple games. Dale Mitchell is indeed being badly mistreated by bitter and jaded fans, and even by some players on the Canadian team. Shame on any of them, good on him for coming to the defense of this poor mistreated man who is only trying his best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 quote:Originally posted by wildguy27 Good for him for speaking out, putting aside any personal feelings he might have for being bumped off the roster altogether for these last couple games. Dale Mitchell is indeed being badly mistreated by bitter and jaded fans, and even by some players on the Canadian team. Shame on any of them, good on him for coming to the defense of this poor mistreated man who is only trying his best. I tried my best to be a rocket scientist at NASA. Really I did. But alas, having been found wanting for the task, despite my best and sincerest efforts, was returned to the East End of Winnipeg to take up a career of lifting heavy objects for a living to earn my bread. I blame those stupid astronauts risking their lives going into space on the rockets I was suppose to design. Those ungrateful bastards. I sure it was their whining that did me in with management at Kennedy Space Center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 ^ that's the kind of stuff that keeps me coming back here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nolando Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 post of the year?? (really we should have a vote and an awards ceremony for this type of thing) if radz gets a friggin plaque then cheetah should at very least get a set of autographed official voyageurs briefs - bravo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Heh heh, good on ya Cheeta! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 I think it is real simple. Best effort and trying hard counts but ..... CSA picks the coach, the coach picks the strategy and players. If we don't make it to at least the HEX then changes need to be made. Period. If we don't set our targets high we will always underachieve. When it becomes apparent that we are going to miss the HEX action must be taken. The sooner the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Yep, Cheeta for post of the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redhat Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 I'll donate a Voyageurs pint to Cheeta ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Banner day! Montreal win and fcukwad96 is pwned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Cheeta I tried my best to be a rocket scientist at NASA. Really I did. But alas, having been found wanting for the task, despite my best and sincerest efforts, was returned to the East End of Winnipeg to take up a career of lifting heavy objects for a living to earn my bread. I blame those stupid astronauts risking their lives going into space on the rockets I was suppose to design. Those ungrateful bastards. I sure it was their whining that did me in with management at Kennedy Space Center. Sounds to me like you lied on your resumé to me to get your rocket science job, Cheeta. And/or NASA did some poor due diligence prior to giving you the task. Dale didn't lie on his resumé. For better or worse, his track record was in full view. There was precious little that the astronauts could do to affect their outcome up in space. Surely you can admit that the players had at least a smidgen of control over their destiny. So yeah, apples and oranges. But some nice creative writing, regardless. Put me in the camp that applauds Pat for manning up and taking responsibility. And also put me in the camp that says all the problems with the national team start at the top with the CSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Nobody denies that it is good to admit when you make a mistake. Nobody denies we have a problem at the top with the CSA. But many people agree that appointing DM was a mistake, he was simply not the right man for the job for several reasons that have been posted here before, and there were plenty of people who said so before he took the MNT to its first game. They have been proven right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Nobody denies that it is good to admit when you make a mistake. Nobody denies we have a problem at the top with the CSA. But many people agree that appointing DM was a mistake, he was simply not the right man for the job for several reasons that have been posted here before, and there were plenty of people who said so before he took the MNT to its first game. They have been proven right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildguy27 Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 Mitchell's outstanding record with the U-20s speaks for itself. He definitely is an oustanding coach. He should not be blamed for the teams weak performance in the qualifiers. It is only his job to choose the best lineups, the best formations, the best strategies for the game, to motivate and encourage the players during the games, and ultimately it is up to the players to execute and perform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.